Avoiding high speed

[ge-gn]

Does anyone know of any decent websites out there giving advice regarding European travel avoiding high speed services, ie traditional intercity services.

Seat 61 is great, but it's very pro high speed and one doesn't always want to get around at 200mph, rather enjoy the sights at a more leisurely pace!

Thanks!

 

[Polarbear]

I'm not aware of any such website. It's becoming more difficult to get around Europe without using High Speed services, though it's not impossible.

I'm currently planning a visit to France & am trying to avoid TGV's as much as I can to avoid compulsory reservations (and retain flexibility) & it is possible to get around using TER services & non HS services, but it's slow going.

Is there anywhere in particular you're aiming for?

 

[NicholasNCE]

On db.com, if you select "all but ICE" as means of transport this does remove most HS services, certainly TGVs in France.
You could also use the European Rail Timetable ( http://www.europeanrailtimetable.eu/ ) to work out manually an itinerary without HS.

 

[Hophead]

And, on DB, you can, if you know the network well enough, add in via points which you know not to have high-speed links.

 

[30907]

Depends what you mean by traditional intercity services, too.

Loco hauled trains? Still common in Switzerland and to some extent Germany and Italy, but fixed formation and often with driving trailers. For more traditional than that, you need Poland, the Czech Republic, or further East.

 

[Gordon]

On db.com, if you select "all but ICE" as means of transport this does remove most HS services, certainly TGVs in France.
You could also use the European Rail Timetable ( http://www.europeanrailtimetable.eu/ ) to work out manually an itinerary without HS.

db.com is Deutsche Bank. You need to search for bahn.de - which goes straight to the DB/Hafas search site, which (essentially) covers all of Europe.

However, heartily agree with the 'all without ICE' option on bahn.de/Hafas, and the European Rail Timetable

As to the original question, it is not an easy one to answer, and I fear it really is one of those situations where there is no substitute for experience. It might be worth specifying a few specific aims then those of us with long standing expereience (yes I'm an ancient 55 in a few days time so I have about 50 years of said experience!) can offer some more views and advice.

There really are many variables. For a start, some German 'traditional trains' use high speed lines - many with noise barriers etc, so you might get just as 'bad' an experience on that as on a high speed train, whereas conversely on a double deck French TGV you can get above noise barrier level by travelling on the top deck, where incidentally the sensation of high speed is lessened.

Generally speaking, outside France it is possible to travel between main places with something other than a high speed train quite a few times per day, though as has been mentioned, it takes time. But once again there are variables on different routes.

In France, there may be just one or two chances a day to do a route without high speed, especially as long distances are involved. The very reason France introduced TGVs is because it took most of a day to travel , say, Paris - Marseille on a traditional train. Having said that ordinary trains have crept back onto some French traditional main lines. For example the classic Paris - Lyon line long distance service was (deliberately) cut to a skeleton one train a day left after TGV was introduced on the 1980s as high speed was the 'only way in future'

Paris - Strasbourg was 'skeletonised' similarly, and is difficult to do non TGV at present - however this is one route where the bahn.de / Hafas planner 'all without ICE' feature comes into its own.

I've just checked Paris - Strasbourg randomly and got a itinerary along the classic route using three separate regional trains (changing at Vitry Le Francois and Metz) one of which is definitely loco hauled Corail, and another of the three might be too.

I tried Paris - Berlin and got one itinerary that can be completed in one day - but that chose the IC Bus from Antwerpen to Dusseldorf, rather killing the point!




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[Groningen]

I've just checked Paris - Strasbourg randomly and got a itinerary along the classic route using three separate regional trains (changing at Vitry Le Francois and Metz) one of which is definitely loco hauled Corail, and another of the three might be too.

And that is the only train in the whole day.

From Strasbourg to Paris there are 2 a day:

S: 8.20 and 14.20 - P: 13.53 and 21.54
Both have a change in Nancy and Bar-le-Duc.

 

[ge-gn]

Thanks for all that information. I was just half looking at a trip to Perpignan later in the summer, out by overnight intercity couchette train, but was thinking about travelling back during the day, but was finding it difficult to find anything that doesn't travel at break neck speed! I'm not bothered about the traction especially, rather just having the time to stare at the scenery through the window as it drifts by and day dream. I haven't looked at bahn.com yet, but it seems from what's been said above that, certainly in France, "old style" intercity trains are a thing of the past, with TGV calling at major destinations and regional stopping trains taking up the shortfall for other destinations.

 

[Polarbear]

From Perpignan, you could try going via Tolouse & then the traditional route through Limoges, or alternatively, go to Nimes, then Clermont Ferrand where you can pick up an Inter Cities service to Paris.

There is also (currently) one train a day between Bezier & clermont but it would be a push to get to this from Perpignan.

 

[Groningen]

If you do not want to use TGV on a long distance trip, than you get almost American like trains. So only 1 train a day.

Paris Bercy 9.31
Lyon PD 14.44 - 15.20
Marseille 18.50 - 20.30
Nice 23.06

Strasbourg - Bordeaux and Nice - Bordeaux can not be done in 1 day. Lille - Bordeaux also not. Lille - Marseille is 15 hours. Strasbourg - Rennes is 11 hours.

 

[30907]

Depends how much time you have to spare.

Beziers to Clermont is a brilliant trip, but thé daily IC train is actually a pair of X73500 railcars. You cross the Garabit viaduct which is well worth it though.

Nîmes to Clermont may still have a hauled IC with BB67xxx, or it may have also been downgraded to railcars.

On both routes, watch out for engineering works, which won't show up on the DB site.

If I had the time I would use day trains both ways because of the scenery.

Worth also saying that some main TER routes are electric hauled with cascaded Corail stock.

 

[Gordon]

but it seems from what's been said above that, certainly in France, "old style" intercity trains are a thing of the past, .

No that's not truly the case - you may have misunderstood the gist of what has been said.

Traditional express trains using the Corail stock (often considered amongst professionals to be the best riding coaches ever) introduced from 1975 still run on quite a few routes, although some may stop at a few more stops than before, that doesn't make them all that slow on the long routes as such large distances are covered - France being a big country

For simplicity, the following list ignores the fact that some routes are Regional sector not Intercites sector services, most notably Metz - Basel which is a TER regional service (at 200km/h max dubbed TER200) - but the distance covered is truly 'inter city' (Metz - Basel is as far as London - Leeds)


I've probably missed one (Its late at night!) but quite a long list even so:

Radial Inter City travel:

Paris - Cherbourg
Paris - Maubeuge
Paris - Boulogne
Paris - St Dizier
Paris - Bar le Duc
Paris - Clermont Ferrand
Paris - Limoges - Toulouse - Cerbere
Paris - Belfort (72100 diesel)
Paris - Lyon
Lyon - Marseille
Dijon - Lyon - Grenoble
Metz / Nancy - Strasbourg - Basel


'tangential route' intercity:
Nantes - Bordeaux
Bordeaux - Marseille
Dijon - Lyon - Grenoble
Metz / Nancy - Strasbourg - Basel





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[Quakkerillo]

The only rail planner I've seen where you can select High Speed Trains [] no [] yes , is the Dutch NS International planner:

http://hafas.bene-system.com/bin/query.exe/en?L=ns_hispeed&ld=atr

(NS International -> Search and Book -> Itinerary planner -> Desktop version)

 

[Gordon]

The only rail planner I've seen where you can select High Speed Trains [] no [] yes , is the Dutch NS International planner:

http://hafas.bene-system.com/bin/query.exe/en?L=ns_hispeed&ld=atr

(NS International -> Search and Book -> Itinerary planner -> Desktop version)

As already stated, you can do it also on the DB site by selecting the "further search options" link, then 'all except ICE'
http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/qu...tariffClass=2&&getstop=1=Weitere+Suchoptionen


The Swiss advanced search is even better. It has a button ICE/TGV/RJ which you can uncheck to avoid those types of train (RJ = Railjet)

http://fahrplan.sbb.ch/bin/query.exe/en?showAdvancedInput=1


All the railway use the same Hafas system so all should be able to offer the same facility



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[DEE-DE]

DB's ICE category includes the same as the swiss one. It's just that there is mostly just one type, the ICE. But the button will exclude ICE, TGV, Thalys, Railjet and others as this is important in Germany as these are in product category A, and therefore more expensive than categories B (IC/EC) and C (Loca).

 

[Gordon]

DB's ICE category includes the same as the swiss one. It's just that there is mostly just one type, the ICE. But the button will exclude ICE, TGV, Thalys, Railjet and others as this is important in Germany as these are in product category A, and therefore more expensive than categories B (IC/EC) and C (Loca).

Yes I realise my statement was unclear - what I was saying was that on SBB the types are actually shown on the screen in front of you, whereas on the DB version you have to guess that 'all except ICE' includes the various cat A trains types).

Thanks for the useful tip about price differentials

 

[Groningen]

In the Netherlands it makes no difference in price whether you take the stopping service or IC. Only Thalys has a compulsary reservation and higher price + ICE and Intercity Direct (these trains have a small supplement). So Groningen - Maastricht is 4 hours and 15 minutes with the IC. With stopping services 7 hours. But there is no need for it to do.