Awkward Platforms

[TB]

So the other night, I was having a run down from Bristol towards Exeter on Train Simulator and noticed that Taunton appears to have a pretty pointless platform (Pt6).

I say pointless, cos it appears (having looked on Raildar to double check, as i don't know the area personally) that if travelling from the Bristol direction, it can only be accessed by going wrong line for a fair distance (most, if not all the way from Cogload Jct), which isn't practical on a busy main line like the GWML, while from Exeter, it can only be accessed by coming through either 4 or 5 then reversing in, which is rather inconvenient.

It got me wondering a couple of things - what's the reason behind this strange set up and are there any other stations out there with 1 or more platforms that are awkward to access?

 

[David Goddard]

Huntingdon Platform 1 springs to mind- only accessible to the Up lines as getting into it from the South would mean running wrong line from the other side of St Neots.
I think historically is was used for starters, which would come ECS from Peterborough (or shunt across from the Dow Slow having terminated in P3) then set back into the bay.
Except during engineering works, services have not started or terminated at Huntingdon for over 25 years now, IIRC

 

[causton]

Platform 6 at Wolverhampton. Only really useful to start a service going North, I don't think it's possible to send a train into that platform in passenger service!

 

[Dr_Paul]

The bay at Twickenham, platform 2, is a bit odd. It is on the up side of the station, and faces towards London, but there is no way that it can be reached directly from the down line. One would have to go through Twickenham station on the down line (platform 5), then cross on the trailing crossover to the up fast then across to the up slow, go through the station again (platform 3), then reverse into the bay. Provision has been made in the rebuilding of the station buildings for access to platform 2 from the country end of the station, so sometime in the future it could become a through platform. At the moment, however, there doesn't seem to be any use for it.

 

[bramling]

Huntingdon Platform 1 springs to mind- only accessible to the Up lines as getting into it from the South would mean running wrong line from the other side of St Neots.
I think historically is was used for starters, which would come ECS from Peterborough (or shunt across from the Dow Slow having terminated in P3) then set back into the bay.
Except during engineering works, services have not started or terminated at Huntingdon for over 25 years now, IIRC

The Huntingdon bay was rather more useful when the railway wasn't so busy, so the shunts weren't such an issue.

More recently anything booked to reverse at Huntingdon (nothing since May 18) would go to Connington loop to reverse, which is generally less disruptive.

Huntingdon bay is now essentially a glorified tamper siding, any future passenger use is likely to be extremely rare.

Prior to May 18 there was one train peak-hour service booked to terminate at Huntingdon (which then reversed via Connington as described above and didn't use the bay). I think there was also a service on Saturday mornings which *did* use the bay, which I think came ECS from Peterborough and then did the shunt. The Saturday morning reverser was no doubt either for route retention purposes or just to keep the bay in some form of use at a quiet time of day when running in service from Peterborough wasn't really necessary.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

The bay at Twickenham, platform 2, is a bit odd. It is on the up side of the station, and faces towards London, but there is no way that it can be reached directly from the down line. One would have to go through Twickenham station on the down line (platform 5), then cross on the trailing crossover to the up fast then across to the up slow, go through the station again (platform 3), then reverse into the bay. Provision has been made in the rebuilding of the station buildings for access to platform 2 from the country end of the station, so sometime in the future it could become a through platform. At the moment, however, there doesn't seem to be any use for it.

I think those bay platforms at Twickenham were used by Royal Mail trains, as there was a big sorting office opposite and a pathway leading right to it for railway/postal workers and their wheeled trolleys, the bays may have been used as well for Rugger Specials. It would make sense for platform 2 to be a through platform, so you could have 2 London bound services using 2 & 3 and 2 country bound services on 4 & 5. At the moment you have to dash over the footbridge if the London train comes in on the other platform, or if you are changing from slow to fasts or VV.

 

[SargeNpton]

The bay at Twickenham, platform 2, is a bit odd. It is on the up side of the station, and faces towards London, but there is no way that it can be reached directly from the down line. One would have to go through Twickenham station on the down line (platform 5), then cross on the trailing crossover to the up fast then across to the up slow, go through the station again (platform 3), then reverse into the bay. Provision has been made in the rebuilding of the station buildings for access to platform 2 from the country end of the station, so sometime in the future it could become a through platform. At the moment, however, there doesn't seem to be any use for it.

Not a regular user of Twickenham, but the only times I've noticed the Up Bay Platform in use is to hold empty stock as a relief service when large events are being hosted at Twickenham Stadium.

 

[MarkyT]

So the other night, I was having a run down from Bristol towards Exeter on Train Simulator and noticed that Taunton appears to have a pretty pointless platform (Pt6).

I say pointless, cos it appears (having looked on Raildar to double check, as i don't know the area personally) that if travelling from the Bristol direction, it can only be accessed by going wrong line for a fair distance (most, if not all the way from Cogload Jct), which isn't practical on a busy main line like the GWML, while from Exeter, it can only be accessed by coming through either 4 or 5 then reversing in, which is rather inconvenient.

It got me wondering a couple of things - what's the reason behind this strange set up and are there any other stations out there with 1 or more platforms that are awkward to access?

Taunton was originally going to have a far more comprehensive layout under the 1980s resignalling until Maggie's Treasury ordered the DoT to make significant capital investment cuts to ongoing railway projects. One of the BRB goals thus agreed to descope schemes was to attempt to halve the number of turnouts provided in new layouts (that's halved from the initial new proposals that were already significantly simpler than the former mechanical layouts). That policy led directly to the lobotomised new layouts provided at both Taunton and Newton Abbot, and the inability to run directly into platform 6 at the former was one of the results. That particular 'feature' was partly justified because the terminating trains at the time were still often loco-hauled and all had a long layover scheduled at Taunton to allow for this, and there was no dedicated run round in the bay proposed nor really practical given the limited platform length available. Thus the trains had time to terminate in the down platform loop, then run round and make a shunt movement to layover in and restart from the London end bay. Some of these trains still have the long layovers even though they are clearly all MU formed today, and now they usually wait in and depart from one of the centre through platforms more recently reactivated. Fortunately, work at Exeter St Davids in the early 1980s was already too far advanced for the Thatcher Government to make any significant reductions to that layout. As a new engineering trainee in 1983, I was shown the original plans for Newton Abbot and Taunton on a tour of the Reading Signalling Drawing Office in my induction week, and it was explained that 'this is what we were going to build' - wish I'd asked for a copy at the time! My training placements were mostly in the west country and there I saw a much-simplified scheme unfold in the ensuing three years before returning to my first full-time position in the DO.

 

[30907]

Not a regular user of Twickenham, but the only times I've noticed the Up Bay Platform in use is to hold empty stock as a relief service when large events are being hosted at Twickenham Stadium.

Parcels vans apart, that has been the case as long as I remember. There was no access from the Down direction as far back as 1938 when the layout was remodelled. The flow of traffic after the match is always more concentrated than before it, which is why the platforms were provided.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Taunton was originally going to have a far more comprehensive layout under the 1980s resignalling until Maggie's Treasury ordered the DoT to make significant capital investment cuts to ongoing railway projects. One of the BRB goals thus agreed to descope schemes was to attempt to halve the number of turnouts provided in new layouts (that's halved from the initial new proposals that were already significantly simpler than the former mechanical layouts). That policy led directly to the lobotomised new layouts provided at both Taunton and Newton Abbot, and the inability to run directly into platform 6 at the former was one of the results. That particular 'feature' was partly justified because the terminating trains at the time were still often loco-hauled and all had a long layover scheduled at Taunton to allow for this, and there was no dedicated run round in the bay proposed nor really practical given the limited platform length available. Thus the trains had time to terminate in the down platform loop, then run round and make a shunt movement to layover in and restart from the London end bay. Some of these trains still have the long layovers even though they are clearly all MU formed today, and now they usually wait in and depart from one of the centre through platforms more recently reactivated. Fortunately, work at Exeter St Davids in the early 1980s was already too far advanced for the Thatcher Government to make any significant reductions to that layout. As a new engineering trainee in 1983, I was shown the original plans for Newton Abbot and Taunton on a tour of the Reading Signalling Drawing Office in my induction week, and it was explained that 'this is what we were going to build' - wish I'd asked for a copy at the time! My training placements were mostly in the west country and there I saw a much-simplified scheme unfold in the ensuing three years before returning to my first full-time position in the DO.

The Modern Railways report on the Exeter re-signalling scheme quotes an overall reduction in points from the old 'mechanical' layouts of 557 to 294 on the panel; i.e. less than halving even over the extremes of scheme progression. I can find no reference to any mid-scheme de-scoping. The new layout at Taunton is described as having greater capacity (thanks to closer signal spacing) and higher speeds.

Modern Railways' reports on the overall West of England Resignalling (Westbury and Exeter) cover its 'launch' in 1976.

The special Railway World special issue on the re-signalling (by well-respected author, Adrian Vaughan) records stagework as having started in September 1978. This book speaks very positively about the new layout at Taunton with no mention that I can find about de-scoping.

The general election that brought a change of government was not until 1979.

 

[BarryD]

That policy led directly to the lobotomised new layouts provided at both Taunton and Newton Abbot,

What's "lobotomised" about the layout at Newton Abbot? According to Traksy, all 3 platforms are bi-directional and accessible from all 3 routes.

 

[Dr_Paul]

I think those bay platforms at Twickenham were used by Royal Mail trains, as there was a big sorting office opposite and a pathway leading right to it for railway/postal workers and their wheeled trolleys, the bays may have been used as well for Rugger Specials. It would make sense for platform 2 to be a through platform, so you could have 2 London bound services using 2 & 3 and 2 country bound services on 4 & 5. At the moment you have to dash over the footbridge if the London train comes in on the other platform, or if you are changing from slow to fasts or VV.

Platform 2 at Twickenham was built as a through platform, but never was, and the GPO's pathway was at platform height through to their depot from the country end of platform 3 across where the line would have been. Platform 1, now defunct, was a bay platform; I never saw it in use, and the track was in a shocking state, with sleepers missing. Oddly enough, the signal at the town end of it was still showing red long after the bay fell into disuse.

The station buildings have all recently been rebuilt, and done in such a way that there is space for putting a line through to platform 2 from the country end, thus enabling the bay to become a through platform should this be needed: some forward thinking for a change! I agree that having two island platforms, one for up and the other for down services, would be useful.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

What's "lobotomised" about the layout at Newton Abbot? According to Traksy, all 3 platforms are bi-directional and accessible from all 3 routes.

For one, the Paignton branch has a single lead junction.

 

[PaulMc7]

Personally think Garscadden in Glasgow is a really awkward station because the only way into it is a set of stairs and it's a middle platform station. If you're low mobility or need to take your kids in a pram etc I doubt it's a station you'd want to use. Also doesn't make it easier that to get into it from one side you need to go up a set of stairs just to get to the stairs that go onto the platform. The other side is easier as it's just a hill path. Wonder if they'd ever do anything to make it accessible for everyone

 

[BrianW]

What's "lobotomised" about the layout at Newton Abbot? According to Traksy, all 3 platforms are bi-directional and accessible from all 3 routes.

I'm picturing a 1960s Newton Abbot station stuffed full of Summer Saturday holiday trains to and from Devon and Cornwall resorts from and to everywhere. Shed, works, carriage sidings, David&Charles, Aller Junction ...

 

[_toommm_]

2C at Sheffield strikes me as awkward. It’s out of the way of the rest of the station, and can only fit a two-car train; so has pretty much been made redundant at the minute as most of the Hope Valley stoppers are now four carriages.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I had thought that this thread was going to be about platforms with awkward big gaps between the train and the platform, which used to be (maybe still is) the case at Clapham Junction (Platform 17).

Have always considered that Platforms 8 + 9, 10 and 1 + 20 at Edinburgh Waverley are a little difficult to locate / get to, in that they are situated some way away from the main concourse / ticket office area.

 

[MarkyT]

The Modern Railways report on the Exeter re-signalling scheme quotes an overall reduction in points from the old 'mechanical' layouts of 557 to 294 on the panel; i.e. less than halving even over the extremes of scheme progression. I can find no reference to any mid-scheme de-scoping. The new layout at Taunton is described as having greater capacity (thanks to closer signal spacing) and higher speeds.

Modern Railways' reports on the overall West of England Resignalling (Westbury and Exeter) cover its 'launch' in 1976.

The special Railway World special issue on the re-signalling (by well-respected author, Adrian Vaughan) records stagework as having started in September 1978. This book speaks very positively about the new layout at Taunton with no mention that I can find about de-scoping.

The general election that brought a change of government was not until 1979.

I have absolutely no doubt that the later stages were de-scoped from initial proposals. I was told this explicitly, and shown the diagrams, by the signalling engineers who were designing the scheme. I don't have a copy of the Railway World Special. I suspect the descoping took place very much behind closed doors before any information was released into the public domain and certainly well before any signalling notices were published to operations staff. To be fair to the administration of the time the layouts actually built probably suited this period characterised by the lowest passenger traffic figures ever experienced on the British rail network (possibly until 2020!). The track and signalling layout designs, while very 'lean', were highly optimised, and speeds of turnouts etc were improved markedly for many frequently made moves. I don't criticise the engineers. They did their very best within the scope of what they were allowed to spend. Some of the decisions made have definitely hampered service growth, flexibility and reliability since however. At Taunton, operators were very lucky in being able to reactivate the centre island platform economically later without the costs of any additional signalling or track layout work, but another big disadvantage of the layout as it stands is anything going in or out of Fairwater yard at the London end must go through the down platform loop. That was a more serious constraint before the centre island was reopened - it wasn't so busy then as it has been more recently as a major track renewals base though. In the initial proposal I believe there was to to be a ladder of additional left hand crossovers at the west end of the station that did not survive the review.

Here is a chronology of the West of England Resignalling and related schemes, from defunct Signalling Notices website, my training notes and other sources:
Signalling Notice No. - Date – Scheme – Stage – Site and details
--
? - October 1978 - Westbury South area resignalling. The signalling was controlled from a small panel in Westbury North SB. Fairwood Junction also resignalled but still controlled from the local SB
? - 1979 - Warminster area added to Westbury North panel
No.1 - April 1984 - Westbury Resignalling - Stage 1 - Westbury Area (Panel Opens) - Westbury North, Fairwood Junction, Haywood Road Junction and Hawkeridge were closed
No.2 - October 1984 - Westbury Resignalling - Stage 2 - Frome Area
No.3 - Exeter Resignalling - Stage 1 (Preliminary Works) - Exeter Central
No.4 - November 1984 - Westbury Resignalling - Stage 3 - Witham Area
No.5 - December 1984 - Exeter Resignalling - Stage 1 (Preliminary Works) - Cowley Bridge Junction to Crediton singling and conversion to key token
No.6 - February 1985 - Westbury Resignalling - Stage 4 - Castle Cary / Somerton Area
No.9 - March 1985 - Exeter Resignalling - Stage 1A – (Panel Opens) Exeter St. David's / Crediton / Stoke Cannon
No.10 - Friday 3rd May - Monday 6th May 1985 - Exeter Resignalling - Stage 1B Exeter St. David's / Exeter City Basin / Exmouth Junction
No.11 - Saturday 7th December - Monday 9th December 1985 - Exeter Resignalling - Stage 2 Stoke Cannon (inclusive) to Tiverton Junction (exclusive)
No.12 - March 1986 Exeter Resignalling - Stage 3 - Tiverton Junction (inclusive) to Silk Mill (exclusive)
No.13 - April 1986 - Exeter Resignalling - Stage 4A - Bridgewater (exclusive) / Athelney (inclusive) to Taunton East Junction (exclusive)
No.14 - Friday 9th May - Monday 12th May 1986 Exeter Resignalling - Stage 4B - Cogload Junction (exclusive) to Wellington (exclusive)
No.24 - Friday 14th November - Monday 17th November 1986 - Exeter Resignalling - Stage 5 - City Basin (inclusive) to Newton Abbot (exclusive)
No.25 - Friday 1st May - Monday 4th May 1987 - Exeter Resignalling - Stage 6 - Newton Abbot East (inclusive) to Paignton North (exclusive) and Totnes (exclusive)
No.25A - Friday 1st May - Monday 4th May 1987 - Exeter Resignalling - Stage 6 - Newton Abbot East (inclusive) to Paignton North (exclusive) and Totnes (exclusive) (Amends Notice No 25)
No.27 - October 1987 - Exeter Resignalling - Stage 7 Dainton Tunnel (exclusive) to Totnes (inclusive)
No.28 - October 1987 - Between Crediton and Barnstaple, NSTR loop I think
No.31 - February 1988 - Special signalling facilities between Dawlish Warren and Teignmouth (issued retrospectively) – A method based on ‘Absolute Block’ for use through a ‘long section’ during widespread failures of track circuits on the sea wall. Instituted by panel supervisor only by means of a special panel key switch. Procedures for train arrived complete confirmation. Removed when TCs replaced by axle counters
No.40 - March 1990 - Westbury - Bradford Junctions Area
? - ? - Paignton North SB Closure – Transfer to Paignton South SB
? - ? - Paignton South Closure – Transfer to new Paignton panel in station office
? - ? - Axle Counters – Various schemes to convert train detection on sea wall and Exe estuary

 

[MarkyT]

What's "lobotomised" about the layout at Newton Abbot? According to Traksy, all 3 platforms are bi-directional and accessible from all 3 routes.

For one, the Paignton branch has a single lead junction.

The initial proposals I was shown; those that were explained to me to have have been abandoned already due to recent Conservative government imposed cost-cutting, retained four through platforms at Newton Abbot and I think at least one additional through line. The junctions at both ends were more complex to match. I think it was lucky that double track survived throughout on the Torbay branch at all. I guess it was only the summer holiday traffic remaining that swung it as the year-round local service might have allowed some further simplification. Probably a borderline case, balancing numbers of extra points for a midway passing loop versus the low cost of retaining old jointed bullhead rail, of which some remained on the down line even well into this century!

 

[MarkyT]

I'm picturing a 1960s Newton Abbot station stuffed full of Summer Saturday holiday trains to and from Devon and Cornwall resorts from and to everywhere. Shed, works, carriage sidings, David&Charles, Aller Junction ...

I did a quick count on the three major boxes surviving at the end (Newton Abbot East, Newton Abbot West and Aller Junction). There were a total of well over 100 controlled turnouts there in the old layouts at their maximum extents in the 1940s (I stopped counting!) and I estimate at least 70 survived until the end of mechanical signalling. The modern layout covering the same area has 16.
For Taunton, a rough estimate over remaining boxes (Taunton East, Taunton West and Silk Mill) gives a similar total of around 70 turnouts at the end. The modern layout has 22. Figures include siding traps.

 

[trainmania100]

Not really much need for the bay platform at Hastings as not much turns around there without going straight through to Eastbourne
If the Bopeep area was closed they can just turn around in the other 3 plats.
But it's there so I think they make the most of it for berthing units in addition to park sidings

 

[Steve Harris]

Huntingdon Platform 1 springs to mind- only accessible to the Up lines as getting into it from the South would mean running wrong line from the other side of St Neots.
I think historically is was used for starters, which would come ECS from Peterborough (or shunt across from the Dow Slow having terminated in P3) then set back into the bay.
Except during engineering works, services have not started or terminated at Huntingdon for over 25 years now, IIRC

I'm sorry to inform you, but there used to be 1 terminator and 1 starter daily Mon - Fri up until the switch from Great Northern to Thameslink (so fairly recently). I can't quite remember the times but IIRC one was between 1600 - 1700 hrs ( I will confirm when I get home from work ). I can't definitely say if the starter started from P1 or P2 though.

Edit : I see Bramling beat me to it, lol

 

[Ianno87]

The initial proposals I was shown; those that were explained to me to have have been abandoned already due to recent Conservative government imposed cost-cutting, retained four through platforms at Newton Abbot and I think at least one additional through line. The junctions at both ends were more complex to match. I think it was lucky that double track survived throughout on the Torbay branch at all. I guess it was only the summer holiday traffic remaining that swung it as the year-round local service might have allowed some further simplification. Probably a borderline case, balancing numbers of extra points for a midway passing loop versus the low cost of retaining old jointed bullhead rail, of which some remained on the down line even well into this century!

The single lead at Aller Jn isn't that big a deal in practice. The layout at Newton Abbot offsets this by enabling a Down Paignton train to be held in the "loop" clear of the main line whilst an Up Paignton train crosses in front.

Plus the Paignton branch itself is relatively low capacity with long signal sections and only one platform permitting direct turnbacks at Paignton (everything else needs a shunt via Goodrington Sands)

 

[YorksLad12]

Can I put in a bid for platform 17 at Leeds?

As a passenger it's not easy to access. You have to walk down to platform 16 from the footbridge, then double back under the stairs (if you're a local) or along the platform (if you're unsure). Tht's assuming you haven't taken the escalator back up to the footbridge by mistake. Then you reach the narrow, western end of P16 around the lift shaft, hoping that a large flow of passengers isn't trying to squeeze past you as they head off P17 (no railing to stop you falling on to the track).

Most trains from P17 head off round the curve to Castleford, Barnsley & Sheffield; but they take the same route in and out, F, as the six TPE departures every hour towards Huddersfield. If (if?) one of those services is delayed, so are you. And it's not long enough now that the Pacers have gone; you could fit a two-car 158 and a three-car 144 in there at best but not a three-car 195.

In an ideal world it wouldn't be used except at times of perturbation, there would be more platforms north of platform 0 (coming 2021) and everything would be shunted further northwards. But it isn't.

 

[MarkyT]

The single lead at Aller Jn isn't that big a deal in practice. The layout at Newton Abbot offsets this by enabling a Down Paignton train to be held in the "loop" clear of the main line whilst an Up Paignton train crosses in front.

I have no problem with the single lead as that can be managed. The number of platforms is a more difficult issue. Whichever platform a down branch is held in, it has an associated probability of affecting another service that might need that resource, and that might be a service which is running out of course itself which could plausibly knock on to something else following that is running to time if there's nowhere to put it. The loop platform #1 is more commonly used by up branch trains today, with down branch services sharing #2 with down Plymouths. An incoming up branch train usually gives way to a departure at Newton Abbot West 'up branch home' (E109) in order for the platform to be cleared ASAP. Recent service patterns have seen few branch terminators with most local trains running to and from Exeter so that means there are fewer longer layovers, which is good for performance.

Plus the Paignton branch itself is relatively low capacity with long signal sections and only one platform permitting direct turnbacks at Paignton (everything else needs a shunt via Goodrington Sands)

There is a 2asp 'advanced starter', E190, a train length clear of NA west junction that a branch train can be drawn forward to from the station and held at, so its platform can be cleared ASAP if the long block section going forward to Torre is blocked by a preceding service. The more difficult converse is that if an incoming up branch train is held at the junction awaiting a clear platform, a following service must be held just London side of Torre on the steep gradient. As it stands, at busy times, usage of Newton Abbot is very close to capacity, and only small deviations from plan can result in chaotic knock-on delay and inconvenience. An extra 'outer home' signal section on the up branch could be very useful indeed. That would be my No.1 priority capacity intervention. It could be quite close to NA, replacing the existing distant signal to allow the second train to trundle up behind the one waiting at the junction. My investment priority No.2 would be looking at the best way to provide extra platform capacity at Newton Abbot station. Many possibilities exist clearly depending on budget available and synergy with other aspirations such as the mooted east side station access which could link the large Brunel Road industrial estate much better on foot with both the station and the wider town. An extra track and side platform might be constructed on that side too, or alternatively the old through platform #4 might be reinstated although that would require a lot of expensive work to adapt the existing town side entrance. The recent gating project makes new entrances more complex of course. My suggestion would be to split platform 1 into two sections with a scissors crossover partway along connecting to a new parallel bypass track in the style of Cambridge. No new access provisions required. http://www.townend.me/files/newtonabbot.pdf

Swerving slightly back on topic the second platfrom at Paignton can only be used for arrivals as you say so might be considered slightly less than fully useful. In the old mechanical days, there was an extra crossover in the form of a scissors on the London side of the Paignton North Crossing that could allow an up departure to leave from platfrom 2, but curiously that was never made a passenger move, only a shunt disc leading across a facing turnout not equipped with a facing point lock. Obviously in an emergency it COULD be used for a passenger move if the locally based signaller manually applied clips and padlock according to instructions but it couldn't be used routinely. An extra crossover to allow up passenger departures from either platform would be very useful today, especially for recovering from long-distance late arrivals. That would be my No.3 priority for branch investment.

 

[Iskra]

P2 at Mirfield would seem to be a contender, being very rarely used.

 

[onlinespotting]

Platform 7 at Leeds is rarely used because there are only two lines northbound, and most departures go from the through platforms or bay 14. At least 17 (mentioned above) has regular trains from it despite being the most awkward to get to