AWS and TPWS

[Llama]

Types of traction worked, as well as routes signed, are on the certificate that has to be carried at all times by drivers working to the TDLC regs, 2010. This isn't compulsory for existing domestic drivers who qualified before late Oct 2013, but is for those who instruct or assess them. Along with the certificate goes the licence issued by the ORR which looks a lot like a DVLA driving licence, being a plastic ID card with certain info shown. TDLC regs become compulsory for all existing drivers by Oct 2018. The main difference most drivers will see are a proper licence, not just a laminated bit of card, a change to competency management procedures, and more frequent medicals (every three years instead of every five). The licence can be suspended by the ORR in certain circumstances (eg long term sickness) and then reinstated, or revoked if there is no possibility of a driver undertaking main line duties again (eg permanent debilitating medical condition falling foul of occupational health standards).

If a driver moves company then the licence goes with them, it is a licence issued to the individual driver by an independent body (the ORR) and isn't property of the TOC as a SCWID (Safety Critical Work ID) or equivalent card is, for those drivers not yet working to TDLC regs. As far as the certificate is concerned, IIRC a copy of it can be taken by the driver when moving company but the original possibly does belong to the TOC. I would have to check that. Type TDLCR into your favourite search engine and the meaty PDF that comes up will answer your questions.

 

[142094]

I know speed makes no difference and I agree with what you are saying. But I dont understand why some people think you can move from being train crew on the tyne and wear metro then applying for a position to be a qualified train driver for lets say Northern or VTEC with out doing a trainee train drivers course

Because it has happened. For example there are two drivers who went to Grand Central when it started up and did not need to do a trainee drivers course when they transferred across.

 

[OpsWeb]

Because it has happened. For example there are two drivers who went to Grand Central when it started up and did not need to do a trainee drivers course when they transferred across.

Legally they would have to do a rules course followed by traction training to form the basis for their competency. It would be up to the individual recruiting TOC to decide where they recruit drivers from. All it would take is the advert to say "qualified mainline driver" to rule people out who aren't currently mainline drivers.

Potentially, there could also be a conflict with regard to what sort of things go in safety files and types of training etc...

There also might be an "issue" with regard to aptitude tests as Network Rail now state all drivers driving on their infrastructure (qualified since 2005) must have completed the relevant version of the psychometric test battery (dots test etc...).

 

[142094]

There also might be an "issue" with regard to aptitude tests as Network Rail now state all drivers driving on their infrastructure (qualified since 2005) must have completed the relevant version of the psychometric test battery (dots test etc...).

Psychometric tests for Tyne and Wear Metro are carried out by DB Schenker in Doncaster, so should be no issues with that.

 

[notadriver]

Same as any other TOC. The speed of the train makes absolutely no difference. You can be a trainee driver at any TOC. Ok not many intercity TOCs take trainees off the streets as there is enough applicants from qualified and internal candidates but they do recruit trainees from within from time to time. So a catering host could become a train driver and their first experience of driving a train would be at 125mph. I assume that is what you are getting at?

Speed makes very little difference to driving a train. You don't start on slower trains and work you r way up to faster ones. Trainees at GTR go straight into 100mph running.

The parent company also makes no difference as all drivers need to meet the standards set centrally.

Does anyone know of any TOCs taking on trainees for high speed work in recent years ? The likes of Virgin (East and West Coast) seem to only want qualified drivers and of those they seem to prefer experienced ones who possibly sign some of their routes. I've yet to hear of someone going from a metro style service like London Overground straight into Virgin for example. Eurostar is even stricter and on their application form it states you must have experience driving trains on the main line that achieve at least 90 mph. That would exclude many drivers who only do metro style work.

I think speed does make a difference. A tube driver or someone on the T+W can generally start braking when they see the station. That's not case for higher speed trains.

 

[A-driver]

Does anyone know of any TOCs taking on trainees for high speed work in recent years ? The likes of Virgin (East and West Coast) seem to only want qualified drivers and of those they seem to prefer experienced ones who possibly sign some of their routes. I've yet to hear of someone going from a metro style service like London Overground straight into Virgin for example. Eurostar is even stricter and on their application form it states you must have experience driving trains on the main line that achieve at least 90 mph. That would exclude many drivers who only do metro style work.



I think speed does make a difference. A tube driver or someone on the T+W can generally start braking when they see the station. That's not case for higher speed trains.

East Coast certainly take on plenty of trainee drivers. All internal but a fair few catering staff, ticket office, guards etc who became teainee drivers straight into East Coast.

I disagree about speed. Braking on line of sight is route dependant. It requires no more or less skill to brake for a station you can see than one you can't. If you can't see it you use other landmarks to know how close you are.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because it has happened. For example there are two drivers who went to Grand Central when it started up and did not need to do a trainee drivers course when they transferred across.

Sorry but you genuinely are mistaken here. No T&W metro drivers can move to a mainline TOC without a full rules course. It seriously hasn't happened like you say.

 

[142094]

OK, seeing as you seem to believe you know for a fact that TW Metro drivers cannot transfer to another TOC as qualified drivers, put a list of the rule book sections which you think don't apply to TW Metro drivers who currently operate on Network Rail metals.

 

[A-driver]

OK, seeing as you seem to believe you know for a fact that TW Metro drivers cannot transfer to another TOC as qualified drivers, put a list of the rule book sections which you think don't apply to TW Metro drivers who currently operate on Network Rail metals.

Many rail jobs require rule book knowledge, didn't mean you can just skip the trainee driver stage though.

 

[Juniper Driver]

I can see what A-Driver is saying here.If I transferred to the tube I'd need full training and would expect it,even with the experience I have of driving my own companies trains.It doesn't make me special and they are totally different systems and workings/rules/traction.Same if I applied to TW Metro.

 

[OpsWeb]

OK, seeing as you seem to believe you know for a fact that TW Metro drivers cannot transfer to another TOC as qualified drivers, put a list of the rule book sections which you think don't apply to TW Metro drivers who currently operate on Network Rail metals.

In any case, unless you are a qualified mainline train driver - you must do a full rules course (and obviously traction and route training) before you can drive on the mainline network rail infrastructure.

Whether a TOC employs you as a "trainee" or "qualified" is up to them, but you must have done the full RGS/RSSB rules course and the employing TOC must keep a comprehensive record of this training to show the auditors (which happens quite frequently by the ORR).

I'm pretty sure there was a ATOC Good Practice for employing existing drivers a few years back which stated they must have UK mainline driving experience for at least 3 years to be classed as "qualified". The 3 years post-qualification bit has now been dropped but as far as I'm aware, the guide is still in force.

The argument could go on that a qualified train driver in another country, should be recognised as a qualified train driver in the UK as they are both train drivers, driving under similar rules. Obviously the UK Rail Industry does not currently recognised qualified drivers from outside the UK.

 

[Tomnick]

Surely, though, the T&W drivers must already be fully competent in the Rules & Regs relevant to any other driver, since they work trains over Network Rail infrastructure?

 

[Juniper Driver]

Surely, though, the T&W drivers must already be fully competent in the Rules & Regs relevant to any other driver, since they work trains over Network Rail infrastructure?

Obviously that would help if you are being retrained on them then.We regularly have drivers "off track" for so many different things.One of those things could be for rules retraining.

 

[Mojo]

Surely, though, the T&W drivers must already be fully competent in the Rules & Regs relevant to any other driver, since they work trains over Network Rail infrastructure?

I have no reason to doubt 142094, given I know of his occupation, but LU Train Operators on the District and Bakerloo lines operate over NR infrastructure but would not be fully conversant with the rule book as a driver of a Toc/Foc would be.

 

[Nick82]

Because it has happened. For example there are two drivers who went to Grand Central when it started up and did not need to do a trainee drivers course when they transferred across.

That might be the case, but they would of had to undertake a trainee train drivers course to qualify, just like a outsider would or a conductor or any other member of staff within that TOC that may be applying.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
After carrying out further research, it is not as common as people make out that you can transfer from the T&W Metro to lets say VTEC or GC as a qualified driver. It is to my understanding that there is nothing stopping a driver from the T&W Metro applying to GC or VTEC, but they would have to carry out the FULL trainee train drivers course like any other applicant from either within or outside any TOC/FOC that are applying, and they would be under the same conditions as any other applicants.
Regarding drivers that, so called have transferred over to GC from the T&W Metro I am not convinced but for arguments sake lets say you can, then my question would be why is it not common to do this as DRS, NT and VTEC have either have had open vacancies or various vacancies advertised over time and that you dont hear people moving to these TOCS/FOCS from the T&W Metro. I guess what I am saying is, is if it is as easy as members on here say it is, then why is it not common and widely spoken about within the Rail industry as in my opinion a large percentage of drivers would love the opportunity to further there careers with a larger TOC/FOC and drivers using the T&W Metro as a rather large stepping stone after 2 years experience.

 

[142094]

As you state it is your opinion that you would expect drivers to transfer across but in any case the reasons will be exactly the same as any other driver going from one TOC to another. The North East is in railway terms a small area compared to places like Leeds or Manchester. Nothern very rarely advertise for qualified driver jobs at Newcastle or Darlington, and there is a list of Northern drivers wanting to transfer to the NE from other areas who get first choice. CrossCountry and TPE have relatively small driver depots at Newcastle. East Coast has always been notoriously difficult to get into; in fact I cannot remember the last time any vacancy came up for EC at Newcastle. Similarly Grand Central rarely advertise.

Now even if qualified drivers vacancies came up elsewhere in the country you would then have the additional problem of relocation, which will put people off straight away.

As I have said numerous times previously there are TOCs which will accept QUALIFIED driver applications from TW Metro drivers. TW Metro drivers are still trained and assessed on the Network Rail rule book in order to drive over Network Rail metals between Pelaw and South Hylton. There is no dispensation given which means they don't have to abide by the exact same rules and regulations as Northern, Grand Central or any FOC on the same lines.

 

[Nick82]

As you state it is your opinion that you would expect drivers to transfer across but in any case the reasons will be exactly the same as any other driver going from one TOC to another. The North East is in railway terms a small area compared to places like Leeds or Manchester. Nothern very rarely advertise for qualified driver jobs at Newcastle or Darlington, and there is a list of Northern drivers wanting to transfer to the NE from other areas who get first choice. CrossCountry and TPE have relatively small driver depots at Newcastle. East Coast has always been notoriously difficult to get into; in fact I cannot remember the last time any vacancy came up for EC at Newcastle. Similarly Grand Central rarely advertise.

Now even if qualified drivers vacancies came up elsewhere in the country you would then have the additional problem of relocation, which will put people off straight away.

As I have said numerous times previously there are TOCs which will accept QUALIFIED driver applications from TW Metro drivers. TW Metro drivers are still trained and assessed on the Network Rail rule book in order to drive over Network Rail metals between Pelaw and South Hylton. There is no dispensation given which means they don't have to abide by the exact same rules and regulations as Northern, Grand Central or any FOC on the same lines.

But as stated, they can apply but would have to undergo a Trainee Train drivers course, as would a conductor employed by that TOC there is no difference. Just because they are a driver on the T&W Metro, that does not clarify them as a qualified driver, both a conductor an a member of train creww would undergo the same course. Regarding Northern Rali, they have had until recently had an open application for a considerable amount of time for qualified drivers at various locations including Newcastle

 

[notadriver]

Surely there has to be a difference between the training needed among qualified drivers. I would expect a qualified T&W driver or ex Tube driver to take the full drivers course even if they've been driving for years. On the other hand I would expect a qualified driver from a main line TOC or FOC to have an accelerated training course and be productive very quickly even if they were from another part of the country.

 

[najaB]

On the other hand I would expect a qualified driver from a main line TOC or FOC to have an accelerated training course and be productive very quickly even if they were from another part of the country.

I believe it was established up-thread that if you are mainline qualified then your training would only need to consist of traction and route knowledge.

 

[142094]

Regarding Northern Rali, they have had until recently had an open application for a considerable amount of time for qualified drivers at various locations including Newcastle

You haven't read what I've posted.