Aysgarth Station - Wensleydale Railway

[paul1609]

The bus services survive with volunteer drivers not because people don't want to use them, but because the Tories took away the subsidies. If subsidised properly public transport will work, only major areas of population have public transport that can cover its own costs. That is basic economics.

I live in the rural area north of Romney Marsh just in Kent. The bus runs past my house subsidised by Tory East Sussex Council in one direction and Tory Kent in the other. It's survival owes much to the pro public transport policies of both Tory authorities. It's integration with school transport and the various youth and OAP concessions. It must be one of the few rural bus services to be in a plus us area for its whole length. It's run by a local coach company.

 

[swissrailpassion]

Aysgarth is a bustling tourist honeypot and with Leyburn and Bedale the line could do well with steam if built to Aysgarth. At the moment they need to have an experience to market and some sort of destination. It's not easy but steam will bring the punters and the rest will follow. Leeming Bar has a free car park but the station is pretty awful. Bedale would be a better starting point as the station is smart and includes a cafe.

 

[Pinza-C55]

Aysgarth is a bustling tourist honeypot and with Leyburn and Bedale the line could do well with steam if built to Aysgarth. At the moment they need to have an experience to market and some sort of destination. It's not easy but steam will bring the punters and the rest will follow. Leeming Bar has a free car park but the station is pretty awful. Bedale would be a better starting point as the station is smart and includes a cafe.

Its many years since I volunteered there but I don't understand why Leeming Bar is "awful" ? It is easily reached by a frequent bus service from Northallerton.

 

[WensleyDale]

Its many years since I volunteered there but I don't understand why Leeming Bar is "awful" ? It is easily reached by a frequent bus service from Northallerton.

But you are missing the point. Tourists don't want to start their experience at Leeming Bar, or even Bedale (let alone Northallerton for goodness sakes). WR in its present form goes from nowhere to nowhere. And who wants to spend an hour each way going from nowhere to nowhere? The only interesting part of the line, from a picturesque tourist point of view, begins at Leyburn and ends 4 miles further west at a disused freight terminal. If WR had any idea of what constitutes a viable heritage railway, and this goes back several years of being blinkered, they would have put all their resources into extending the western end of the line.
And please don't come back and say it would cost x millions to extend the track to Aysgarth. How much money has been squandered over the years in propping up a failing line with aspirations of being permanently connected to the main line at Northallerton?

 

[swissrailpassion]

IT gets interesting around Constable Burton where there is no station and better towards Leyburn and Redmire. A short extension to Castle Bolton would be handy. Bedale is a pleasant little town and the railway could market steam and walks around the line rather than trying to put the clock back 60 years. A steam line offering a day out package and, crucially, a better timetable could bring in more revenue.
On the many times I have been I have only managed to get on a train on one day due to cancellations and failures. I was surprised by the Northallerton West development and Scruton station as they are not pivotal to future success. I feel they should have concentrated on creating a quality heritage steam experience before expanding the route.

 

[alexl92]

Ah. I won't say who it is, but do they own any suitable industrial engines they might use on the "private railway?" I doubt a mainline engine would be of much use.

I don't think he does himself BUT Ian Riley owns a Jinty which he's considering going main line with... and given that Ian's black fives spend most of their time under the care of Carnforth, maybe there's a good reason for Carnforth wanting a small engine on hand...?

 

[Pinza-C55]

But you are missing the point. Tourists don't want to start their experience at Leeming Bar, or even Bedale (let alone Northallerton for goodness sakes). WR in its present form goes from nowhere to nowhere. And who wants to spend an hour each way going from nowhere to nowhere? The only interesting part of the line, from a picturesque tourist point of view, begins at Leyburn and ends 4 miles further west at a disused freight terminal. If WR had any idea of what constitutes a viable heritage railway, and this goes back several years of being blinkered, they would have put all their resources into extending the western end of the line.
And please don't come back and say it would cost x millions to extend the track to Aysgarth. How much money has been squandered over the years in propping up a failing line with aspirations of being permanently connected to the main line at Northallerton?

If you read my post earlier in the thread, one of the reasons I left was precisely because money was being squandered , and I disagreed with the the WR's official view that it should only be a "community railway" not a heritage railway. I think in the intervening 13 years if they had pulled their fingers out they could have reached Aysgarth, though it would certainly have cost in excess of a million.
I don't buy the argument that the WR goes from "nowhere to nowhere" - that could have been made about the NYMR when it went from Grosmont to Pickering without through running to Whitby, or indeed most heritage railways.The GCR goes through nondescript countryside and ends at a platform above a housing estate on the northern outskirts of Leicester but they seem to do OK.

 

[yorksrob]

If you read my post earlier in the thread, one of the reasons I left was precisely because money was being squandered , and I disagreed with the the WR's official view that it should only be a "community railway" not a heritage railway. I think in the intervening 13 years if they had pulled their fingers out they could have reached Aysgarth, though it would certainly have cost in excess of a million.
I don't buy the argument that the WR goes from "nowhere to nowhere" - that could have been made about the NYMR when it went from Grosmont to Pickering without through running to Whitby, or indeed most heritage railways.The GCR goes through nondescript countryside and ends at a platform above a housing estate on the northern outskirts of Leicester but they seem to do OK.

Indeed, Leyburn is a very attractive town with plenty of tourist potential and Castle Bolton is a marvellous attraction.

 

[otto52]

I imagine the fact that the track from Redmire to Northallerton was still in situ had a lot to do with the direction in the early days, together with the contracts for freight and military traffic - neither of which materialised to a significant degree. The decision to concentrate on the heritage aspect is the right one, but it should have been taken years ago. Also why now, if they are to be a heritage railway, are they selling the finest part of their heritage? It may be very difficult and/or expensive to buy it back in the future.

The Aysgarth site as it stands was generating a decent income from Open Days and other events and was poised to start offering brake van rides which would have added to that. That income could have pretty much covered the mortgage payments at least.

 

[fireftrm]

I live in the rural area north of Romney Marsh just in Kent. The bus runs past my house subsidised by Tory East Sussex Council in one direction and Tory Kent in the other. It's survival owes much to the pro public transport policies of both Tory authorities. It's integration with school transport and the various youth and OAP concessions. It must be one of the few rural bus services to be in a plus us area for its whole length. It's run by a local coach company.

Yes I'm sure - but it IS the Tory austerity budegtary cuts that have affected rural services across the country and, dare I say, disproportianately in the North - North Yorkshire County Council is Tory too, tries to keep services running but has had to reduce publci transport dramatically over the last years - all due to government cuts. The SE councils are generally better off...

 

[Pinza-C55]

I imagine the fact that the track from Redmire to Northallerton was still in situ had a lot to do with the direction in the early days, together with the contracts for freight and military traffic - neither of which materialised to a significant degree. The decision to concentrate on the heritage aspect is the right one, but it should have been taken years ago. Also why now, if they are to be a heritage railway, are they selling the finest part of their heritage? It may be very difficult and/or expensive to buy it back in the future.

The Aysgarth site as it stands was generating a decent income from Open Days and other events and was poised to start offering brake van rides which would have added to that. That income could have pretty much covered the mortgage payments at least.

The trouble with Aysgarth though is that it mirrors the situation on another line I volunteered on - Peak Rail.
In the early days they had a nice setup at Buxton which wasn't connected to the main line, and the Darley Dale site which had no track. There were two different "camps" with a certain amount of rivalry between the two but no possibility of a physical connection. Thus we ended up with the farcical situation where a fortune was spent on replacing a missing bridge at Buxton only for it never to be used, and then rapid progress on tracklaying at Darley Dale which had to be financed and this led to a large part of the Buxton site being sold off, plus of course some of the volunteers deciding to abandon Peak Rail altogether.
Unless the WR could find funding for Redmire - Aysgarth they would have to face the fact that Aysgarth might remain a distant island offering "brake van rides" which I think have a limited appeal since brake vans generally are only for the hardiest of enthusiasts. So, the mystery buyer may yet turn out to be a good thing if he has deep pockets.

 

[Freeman]

The owner of Bolton Castle is of course Lord Bolton, as did much of Wensleydale in past times. When the WRA was set up he did, I understand, suggest building a halt beside the Castle at his own expense as if the railway terminated there it would undoubtedly make the visitor numbers to the Castle increase dramatically. People could alight, visit the Castle, have tea and be back at the halt for the next train.

Lord Bolton leased the trackbed from Redmire to the Railway at a peppercorn rent, also including most of the further trackbed to Aysgarth. This is still the case, although there are a small number of short sections in private hands.

How about a deal with the new owner? If he wants to relay Redmire-Aysgarth he would need to traverse WR property. In return WR gets running rights through Aysgarth.

 

[Worf]

Yes I'm sure - but it IS the Tory austerity budegtary cuts that have affected rural services across the country and, dare I say, disproportianately in the North - North Yorkshire County Council is Tory too, tries to keep services running but has had to reduce publci transport dramatically over the last years - all due to government cuts. The SE councils are generally better off...

Still dont understand your problem - nobody round here uses the buses and it is US who are funding them anyway as tax payers. Are you saying that if it was a Labour council they would run even more buses with nobody on them?

 

[Pinza-C55]

Still dont understand your problem - nobody round here uses the buses and it is US who are funding them anyway as tax payers. Are you saying that if it was a Labour council they would run even more buses with nobody on them?

Before Thatcher the bus services were publicly funded as a public service regardless of whether they made a profit. So there were for instance 3 - 4 buses a day betweeen Malton and Driffield which were very lightly used and replaced the previous train service. When Thatcher privatised the buses this service disappeared and has never returned. Similarly in the run up to privatisation of the railways services like Middlesbrough to Whitby were pared back from 9 trains a day in the summer to a bare minimum of 4 a day and have never been restored.

 

[fireftrm]

Still dont understand your problem - nobody round here uses the buses and it is US who are funding them anyway as tax payers. Are you saying that if it was a Labour council they would run even more buses with nobody on them?

my problem is that there are people who rely on public transport and rural areas are no different in that respect. As for US who are funding them, I agree - but not everywhere. There is far more spent on the SE than in the rural north of the country and it is irrelevant if the council is Labour, LD, or Tory as it is the Government that has cut the funding. My point was not that it buses in the outer Dales have volunteer drivers becuase there aren't enough passengers (the original post), but that volunteers are needed because there is insufficient funding. Of course you are in the 'just get rid of the Weardale Railway' camp, aren't you?

 

[Shenandoah]

I many parts of the South West, especially Devon, rural and town buses during the day have very few paying travellers even though they are well laden. Most people use their bus passes which is paid for by the taxpayer via taxation of one kind or another. Some bus services are still subsidised at off peak times. I sense another Abbot style mathematical mix up.

 

[Worf]

Of course you are in the 'just get rid of the Weardale Railway' camp, aren't you?

Eh???
How do you work that one out?

I thought this was a discussion on the Wensleydale Railway?
I am a shareholder in the PLC, and a member of the Society and have been supporting the Railway for years, I just think that the present Board are misguided.

As far as buses are concerned - probably best left to bus forums.

 

[fireftrm]

Eh???
How do you work that one out?

I thought this was a discussion on the Wensleydale Railway?
I am a shareholder in the PLC, and a member of the Society and have been supporting the Railway for years, I just think that the present Board are misguided.

As far as buses are concerned - probably best left to bus forums.

You seemed to suggest that a lack of passengers to make a bus service commercially viable meant there shouldn't be one. If so then the same applies to the WR, surely? Even more so when many of the tourists visiting the WR would want/need to use the bus services to access your line, I would have thought (actually do think as I have done just this myself in Wensleydale and also getting around Wharfedale for walking). Therefore I took your lack of interest/support for rural transport to mean you had little interest in seeing the WR a success, an alternative view would have been to fully support rural bus services as a way of supporting the WR. Sorry to have misread your views.

PS This thread does connect with bus discussions as public transport (in most cases bus) links are critical to the success of rural tourist attractions

 

[Worf]

You seemed to suggest that a lack of passengers to make a bus service commercially viable meant there shouldn't be one. If so then the same applies to the WR, surely? Even more so when many of the tourists visiting the WR would want/need to use the bus services to access your line, I would have thought (actually do think as I have done just this myself in Wensleydale and also getting around Wharfedale for walking). Therefore I took your lack of interest/support for rural transport to mean you had little interest in seeing the WR a success, an alternative view would have been to fully support rural bus services as a way of supporting the WR. Sorry to have misread your views.

PS This thread does connect with bus discussions as public transport (in most cases bus) links are critical to the success of rural tourist attractions

I am very much in favour of rural transport. As previously stated, I have used it regularly to get to Garsdale and thence Glasgow on the S&C. It would appear however, that I am very much in the minority as nobody else appears to use the bus - even OAP's travelling free!. It is a case of supply and demand, or "use it or lose it".

 

[fireftrm]

'OAPs' (sic) don't pay but they aren't travelling free as the bus company receives a payment for them. Of course in a rural area there won't be a lot of people, except during busy tourist periods, but still providing a service is the point of a public transport system

 

[RichmondCommu]

I wonder whether recent and fairly significant track lifting at Hellifield can be linked to some of the rumours posted on here.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I wonder whether recent and fairly significant track lifting at Hellifield can be linked to some of the rumours posted on here.

I noticed that when I was on a steam charter going upto the S&C. There were rumors at one time that there was to be some type of Musuem there and a servicing area for charter trains. I presume that all came to nothing.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I noticed that when I was on a steam charter going upto the S&C. There were rumors at one time that there was to be some type of Musuem there and a servicing area for charter trains. I presume that all came to nothing.

I remember reading that the idea for a loco shed fell through due to a lack of planning permission.

 

[TBirdFrank]

No - it fell apart due to non compliance with requirements set out by the Craven District Council.

Makes you wonder what compliance means in certain quarters and how much store may be placed on undertakings given.

 

[Worf]

No - it fell apart due to non compliance with requirements set out by the Craven District Council.

Makes you wonder what compliance means in certain quarters and how much store may be placed on undertakings given.

Agreed. Does not bode well for any supposed "joint plans" with the WR plc.

 

[Pinza-C55]

Agreed. Does not bode well for any supposed "joint plans" with the WR plc.

Except if they were planning to take the lifted track and relay it at Aysgarth ?

 

[Worf]

Except if they were planning to take the lifted track and relay it at Aysgarth ?

From what I have heard, it was more to do with an inability to work within planning laws - hence my comment.

 

[Pinza-C55]

From what I have heard, it was more to do with an inability to work within planning laws - hence my comment.

I understood that but I mean that if the same individual who owned the Hellifield centre has bought Aysgarth and may move the track there, then it would be a good thing. The planning issues at Hellifield may be totally different to anything at Aysgarth.

 

[Worf]

I understood that but I mean that if the same individual who owned the Hellifield centre has bought Aysgarth and may move the track there, then it would be a good thing. The planning issues at Hellifield may be totally different to anything at Aysgarth.

I think it is more about his general attitude in "getting his own way" that is the problem.

 

[WensleyDale]

I understood that but I mean that if the same individual who owned the Hellifield centre has bought Aysgarth and may move the track there, then it would be a good thing. The planning issues at Hellifield may be totally different to anything at Aysgarth.

Planning restrictions at Aysgarth are likely to be very restrictive. The site lies within the Yorkshire Dales National Park, 100 yards away from a National Parks visitor centre. Furthermore it is surrounded by woodland that is designated a Site Of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI). I understand restrictions are already in place relating to noise, liquid fuel storage (not allowed) and ground contamination - there is even a restriction on the number of cars that can be parked on site so how this would relate to elderly locomotives and rolling stock is anyone's guess.