B17 New Builds

[silverfoxcc]

Phil
The costings of 1140k were the A1 costings of 1995-2006 plus 10%,these were on their website. However the final cost 10 years ago was 3m. So i would expect something along the same lines for the B17. Plus it isnt just the materials, wages have increased as well. and as we all know take the majority of the costs. Whilst some suppliers may do material at cost. Bert and Harry on the miller are not going to do minimum wage for it, plus the firm has overheads power rates etc. all these have to be costed in
I would imaging that they would get a support coach of their own rather than have a common use. Keep all their kit in one place rather that loading/unloading each time it goes out
The tenders are just frames,and need a hell of a lot of work, Two new tanks but the last i heard was it was the intention to have both running The A1 tender cost 200k to build ( as i have included all the platework for the and loco Even the A1 lot had to deal with increased costs due to the Chinese explosion
In 2008 the final cost of 60163 was 3.5m Wiki article has a lot of info on there. Driving Wheels costing over 100k,ni. 1995-2000 Now these are exactly the same as B17 ones who think that 62k will cover the costs. Luckily they are using the patterns from the A1 Group A1 Motion 250k, 110k to get mainline cert ( not sure if this includes the latest kit reqd for main line running), but i do know it is costing a loco group about 50+k to get that fitted. and these are 10 year old prices So it looks like that the original estimate that i did on the A1 prices could be way out. Raw materials costs are quite similar .It is the labour that racks it up. How much it cost to get 4472 up and running 2.5m was it? AND they had all the bits already, the majority of the cost was labour There isnt much difference in machining new axles to renovating an original
As i said, with the present set up and business plan on what area to market in, i think they will still be chasing costs in 15 years. the 72010 group planned a 14yr build period, with the frames laid in 2012. They have only just got them up, and appear to be in the same position as the B!7.
But it is todays costs that worry me and i can only use A1 as a yardstick eg their original estimate for boiler was 250k... end cost was 500k and so it goes on. 10yrs ago the cost of the A1 was 3.5m, the only 'additional bits' that it has over the B17 is an inside set of Valve gear, a trailing wheelset and an extra axle on the tender .Oh and some deflectors! I dont think that the lack of these will reduce the B17 costs to 2m, considering the P2 is going to be 5m at least so lets be generous and call it 3.5m, You think 150k pa should be ok, but that is 2.5 times the amount they are getting at the moment!!! and the majority of that has to come from the members most of whom are pensioners and on fixed income, Perhaps Bugler could advise us of the current membership total?.
It might look like i am being a pessimist but my gut feeling is 3.5m with a first steaming in the mid 30's I want iit to happen but I haven't the confidence in them achieving it.
Oh you said they could run it with Footballer plates. I could always lend them my one for one side!!

 

[Flying Phil]

Thanks again Silverfox - As I said in another thread.....
"It is relatively easy for we outsiders to say they should do it this or that way...in reality these things are always more complex than we realise. Having said that, the whole rail preservation movement is a triumph of hope over reality!"
Your point about the pensioner membership is also true, but quite a few actually have a significant disposable income and it only takes a few, with no relatives?, to leave a legacy to a rail related project, to have a big funding impact.
I'm sure your offer to lend a nameplate would be appreciated....and good luck with your 5" build!

 

[silverfoxcc]

Phil

All i can say is that i am 'acquainted' with the costs aspect of loco manufacture. so the figures are a bit more than fag packet costings
And i buggered the parting tool last night. 70.00 for a replacement!!! Might have to do a bit of smith work on it!

 

[Flying Phil]

Ahh .....parting tools....I always felt very wary when having to use one of those!!
And thanks again for your informed input...much appreciated. Given the comparative dearth of genuine LNER locomotives, compared to SR and GWR (Thanks to Barry), I would hope that the fans of "Apple Green" will get behind this project in ever increasing numbers as more is achieved.

 

[silverfoxcc]

Phil

The one i would really like to see completed if pushed to decide would be the D16 Group. I know they are doing a Gresley rebuild, but the Holden originals were such beautiful locos in GER blue. ( A lottery win would see me getting one built!!)There was a 5in model of one at the late lamented North Woolwich museum. The LSWR Adams 4-4-0 is another. I always looked upon the B17 as a 'baby' A3, There is a train of thought ( no pun intended) that they had more of NB than Gresley about them, possibly because they still had the A1 Drawings and used that profile as a first draft. Then had to put a GE tender behind it to fit the turntables!. In a way lucky for me as i have short arms!! and reaching over a GS or 8 Wheeled tender limited me to a choice. My wife wanted an A4, but i said if the panel beating at the front went pear shaped. she would be getting an A3. as the front end makes or breaks the side view. I have seen a few horrors running over the years.

 

[Flying Phil]

Well I am very pleased to see that the B17 website has been updated and a picture of the streamlined B17/5 is now included on the front page! Apparently it has been discussed within the management team and there is a feeling that it could be a good way of increasing the awareness of the class and project. There does seem to be a strong sense that, with the enlarged management team, this project is gaining momentum.
Silverfox....perhaps you could please your wife and also build a B17/5 front end casing as well??

 

[silverfoxcc]

Phil

My grandson could do a better shape of the bugatti front in lego than i could even in thin copper with the guidance !

Any easy way to do the /5 is to get hold of Mallard and cut the cartazzi truck off et Voila!

 

[Flying Phil]

Any easy way to do the /5 is to get hold of Mallard and cut the cartazzi truck off et Voila![/QUOTE]
.......What a great April fool that would be! I still remember the uproar over the spoof BR Black "City of Truro"!!...and that was before Twitter....

 

[Flying Phil]

Well I went along to a talk last night, by Brian Hall of the B17 society and he gave a very good overview of the project so far and what needs to be done. In an ideal world they would like to have the locomotive built by 2028 and on the main line by 2029 (That will be the 100th anniversary of the original build). However they will need to spend close to Silverfox figures, around £2.4M. They are getting very good co operation with the A1SLT and are sharing costs on some common items where possible. They are building to Main Line standard and have the independent inspections and paperwork to prove that as they go along.
Obviously they need to expand their supporter base by a significant amount otherwise the timescale will slip.
They are trying to spread geographically with local groups as and when they become viable.
They are aware of the confusion of the "other" B17 project and are going to liaise with them soon, but the other project is, at this stage, a simulation only..(but their tender, from a B1 is in "fair" condition).
I think/hope that, as more new builds get completed, the support for the credible projects will increase and the projects - including this one , will "snowball" to completion.

 

[Flying Phil]

I was sent a copy of the B17 Trust's leaflet, given out on the 80th Anniversary of "The East Anglian" service. Here are a couple of pictures from it to "whet the appetite"?

 

[silverfoxcc]

Being a pedant
2802 was delivered in Nov 1928

 

[Flying Phil]

Being a pedant
2802 was delivered in Nov 1928

But I think the Anniversary was for the Service which started Sept 27th 1937....

 

[Flying Phil]

Here is the cover of the 80th Anniversary Leaflet and a couple more Mini A4s....

 

[Flying Phil]

From various sources it has been said that the streamlined casing on the B17 was literally just a casing over the "regular" B17, however, looking at those photographs, they must have also altered the top front of the smokebox and chimney to get that sloping A4 style front. So we may need a second smokebox!

 

[silverfoxcc]

Phil

A /5??

It isnt April 1 already is it?

Have a good New Year

 

[Flying Phil]

Phil

A /5??

It isnt April 1 already is it?

Have a good New Year

.....and a good New Year to you too.....The B17/5 is too good not to happen.....sometime after April 1st!.....2028.

 

[silverfoxcc]

Looks like Brian will have to make a new nameplate!

Still it will keep the knuckledragger i met happy that it is 'All in East Anglia'

 

[Alan Warren]

Good old Sir Rod!

Sir Rod Stewart CBE to become patron of the B17 Steam Locomotive Trust

It is with great pleasure that the Trust is able to announce that legendary singer, songwriter and entertainer, Sir Roderick D. Stewart CBE (known as Sir Rod), has very kindly accepted an invitation to become our Patron.

Sir Rod has a long history of being a railway enthusiast and has actively been creating his own model railway layouts for many years. To have the support of a high-profile personality like Sir Rod is a great boost at this time!

It is possible that he may have some personal memories of the B17s, as he spent his early years in London. For many years he has lived in Essex and it is therefore great to have a local personality supporting a local engine!!

A number of the B17 Class were named after football clubs and were known as 'Footballers'. Sir Rod is also a fan of the game and so his interest in these locomotives is even more appropriate. He lived three miles away from Highbury Stadium and was an Arsenal supporter in his early days, when playing for London Schoolboys. He is now a passionate Glasgow Celtic Fan. Their football ground is within four miles of the North British Locomotive Company (NBL) Works in Glasgow, where the B17 design was completed, and the first ten locomotives were built in 1928.

The B17 Steam Locomotive Trust is delighted to welcome Sir Rod as our Patron and we look forward to meeting him in the future to share a common interest in railways as we progress with Spirit of Sandringham.

 

[Flying Phil]

According to the latest B17 Spirit of Sandringham new build newsletter -

"Yesterday when in conversation with the Chairman of the Llangollen Railway, we were informed that a restructuring of the business had been announced, to be effective immediately given their previous financial difficulties of the last two years and the restrictive nature for Wales in relation to the pandemic. Although ‘Engineering’ work had looked promising with the arrival of 9F No. 92212 for major overhaul at the end of March, this engine has since been removed from site. As a consequence four members of the Engineering Team were unfortunately made redundant as of the end of last week. These same people are also certified to work on Spirit of Sandringham. Thus it was explained that Llangollen Engineering can no longer provide people with the appropriate skills and competencies to work on B17 contracts. Retained staff (3) will only be assigned to boiler checks/maintenance and loco servicing for the railway’s own fleet of engines. The Llangollen Railway have expressed their sadness and apologised for this outcome. Therefore B17SLT are left with no other choice than to arrange transfer of the mainframe structure and associated items to another site where construction can eventually continue. A survey of possible sites in the East of England and further afield is being made including colleagues advice involved with Tornado and the P2 projects. Heavy haulage contractors, S.A. Smith of Biggleswade (Beds) have indicated a willingness to collect and move our assets from Llangollen to another site when one is identified and appropriate agreement reached with the host/owner. This is a priority. As we know, work at Llangollen was complete with no outstanding items to be delivered. Timing wise we are preparing to commence ordering first steel castings from William Cooks of Sheffield for the rolling chassis but delivery is to be the end of the year which allows time to relocate assuming a suitable site is found. Details about these issues will appear in the August edition of Steam Railway."