BA to purchase BMI

[starrymarkb]

BE's niche is also flying routes that are too thin for EZY and FR...

Still waiting for the first E175 (is ready to go however they are awaiting finance from the Export Bank of Brazil)

 

[WestCoast]

BE's niche is also flying routes that are too thin for EZY and FR...

That's definitely a part of it. Acting as the key regional airline of the UK in lieu of BA is another. They are even doing summer charters now!

Still waiting for the first E175 (is ready to go however they are awaiting finance from the Export Bank of Brazil)

They have been due for a while! Personally, I wish they had bought the Bombardier CRJ-900/1000 series, but only because I like the look of them. I have nothing against the E-jets (very comfy indeed) but everyone and their brother is ordering them in Europe (probably because they are so good!).

 

[lookingforit35]

Going back to bmi, I am wondering what the future holds for Virgin Atlantic, they relied on bmi to feed their flights out of Heathrow. They won't be happy having to put connecting passengers up to Manchester, Edinburgh e.t.c on BA.

Yes, good question. I guess it outlines the problem with relying on the low cost/low fares point-to-point business model, or indeed connecting using any other airline either as a traveller or from the perspective of the long haul carrier.

Whilst long haul carriers arent 100% dependant on feeder flights, it does often make the difference. Imagine arriving back in the UK on Virgin a little late, to be told that your rival carrier couldnt care less and you need to make a whole new booking in order to get back to Scotland. It would certainly swing it in favour of the connecting flight model were it me booking.....

 

[WestCoast]

Virgin Atlantic are a strange airline really. Firstly, they only operate long-haul flights, which isn't a common business model at all. Secondly, they don't belong to an alliance and rely on codeshares for connecting flights, so most of their market is Origin & Departure (i.e. people travel just between, say, London and New York). Thirdly, they operate many holiday type flights from Gatwick and Manchester to places like Orlando and the Caribbean, and that has been their main growth area.

Basically, without Virgin Holidays on 'sunshine' routes out of Gatwick and Manchester, I don't think they'd be able to support their long-haul flights out of Heathrow against fierce competition. For that reason, I think that BA becoming stronger at Heathrow will do them no favours.

 

[Nym]

E Jets are also good, remember that Emb E135 based jet that managed to land with half a wing in Brazil? (Took out a 737 in the process)

 

[lookingforit35]

Branson has a track record of bailing out when he sees the opportunity. Although in fairness, the airline seems to have been closest to his heart.

I do understand the whole youthful, on-trend image thing but I will admit his constant chasing of headlines is a little tiresome. Maybe he'll look to unload to remaining Virgin shares which will result in the carrier losing it's name - it is what has happened to other Virgin businesses. He wouldnt want it to carry on without him surely?

 

[WestCoast]

Branson has a track record of bailing out when he sees the opportunity. Although in fairness, the airline seems to have been closest to his heart.

I do understand the whole youthful, on-trend image thing but I will admit his constant chasing of headlines is a little tiresome. Maybe he'll look to unload to remaining Virgin shares which will result in the carrier losing it's name - it is what has happened to other Virgin businesses. He wouldnt want it to carry on without him surely?

The thing is Virgin Atlantic aren't really 'trendy' anymore, the brand name still is to a certain extent, but they haven't updated their onboard product in a considerable amount of time.

They were innovators, but nowadays they aren't all that special. I feel SRB has become a little complacent, he keeps saying that he will join an airline alliance but nothing seems to come to fruition. Virgin Atlantic can't join Oneworld (BA) and I doubt they'd be wanted in the Star Alliance (Lufthansa doesn't want a London based carrier after Bmi). So, therefore I reckon their only hope is SkyTeam (Air France-KLM)

 

[Nym]

But most of their partners are in either OneWorld or Star Alliance, some having just moved from SkyTeam, namely Continental Airlines that they codeshare with, and Singapore Airlines, whom they also codeshare with.

 

[WestCoast]

But most of their partners are in either OneWorld or Star Alliance, some having just moved from SkyTeam, namely Continental Airlines that they codeshare with, and Singapore Airlines, whom they also codeshare with.

You can codeshare/interline outside an alliance, that's acceptable. There's a big difference between codesharing and alliance members, the latter means sharing resources and directing routes to certain hubs as well. Virgin are 49% owned by Singapore Airlines as well, who are a member of Star. However, Singapore have been mentioning selling their shares for years now.

SRB keeps banging on about wanting to go in an alliance. Oneworld won't have him, I don't think the ring leader of Star Alliance (Lufthansa) is too keen, which leaves the options of SkyTeam or no alliance.

SkyTeam's major benefit to Virgin is Delta Air Lines, who would be a great partner on most of the Heathrow - USA routes. They could enter into a full agreement to pool resources like BA and American Airlines have done.

 

[Nym]

Yeah, but One World operates in quite a different way to Star, remember what just happened with a founding member of Star Alliance at Manchester, leaving the terminal with every other Star Alliance and even an airline owned by the same pearant company to move to T3 from T2...?

Rather than moving the airline they codeshare with to GDG, currently unaffiliated, asside from grandfater rights to T1 Domestic (Terminal 3) by it's former owner to T2...

 

[WestCoast]

Yeah, but One World operates in quite a different way to Star, remember what just happened with a founding member of Star Alliance at Manchester, leaving the terminal with every other Star Alliance and even an airline owned by the same pearant company to move to T3 from T2...?

Rather than moving the airline they codeshare with to GDG, currently unaffiliated, asside from grandfater rights to T1 Domestic (Terminal 3) by it's former owner to T2...

I'm presuming you mean SkyTeam there. Air France have always done what they want.

That's just at Manchester, if you head down to Heathrow, BA can't/won't let its oneworld friends use T5.

There are tensions within the Star Alliance too by the way, I think Lufthansa and Singapore Airlines definitely compete more than co-operate.

 

[Nym]

No, but it uses T3 and has a fast baggage link to T3 for transfers.

There isn't space for them at T5 anyway, they wouldn't want the aussies in anyway, they'd spread strikeitase through the baggage handlers then not only QF1 but BA9 wouldn't bother going either.

 

[lookingforit35]

The thing is Virgin Atlantic aren't really 'trendy' anymore, the brand name still is to a certain extent, but they haven't updated their onboard product in a considerable amount of time.

Haven't flown with them for 6 years but I'd agree it wasnt anything spectacular even then on their flagship New York route. And carting holidaymakers to Orlando etc doesnt do their trendy image any good either I'd imagine! Again, a triumph of style over substance.

 

[WestCoast]

No, but it uses T3 and has a fast baggage link to T3 for transfers.

There isn't space for them at T5 anyway, they wouldn't want the aussies in anyway, they'd spread strikeitase through the baggage handlers then not only QF1 but BA9 wouldn't bother going either.

I see what you mean, but Star is a bit like Lufthansa Group vs the rest at times. Star is huge as well and it doesn't have as many strong relationships as the others. Singapore Airlines subtly competing with Lufthansa on Frankfurt to New York being a prime example.

KLM and Delta have a very strong relationship which has stretched back many years to the days of Northwest Airlines. Their joint operation at Amsterdam is impressive and covers almost all parts of North America.

Delta doesn't have a partner in the UK, and I just think Virgin would be a prime candidate for them.

 

[Nym]

Lufthansa Group are the strongest in Europe though...

Tbh, the three alliances are formed primerally of the three biggest airlines in western europe (legacy ones).

OneWorld = BA
SkyTeam = AirFrance-KLM (Although KLM has a string partnership with NWA, now part of Delta, and AF Had links with Delta)
Star Alliance = Lufthansa

Add in the likes of Finnair, BMI, Alitalia (Part of AFKLM, or might as well be) and possibly Ibreia, and thats another airline each pretty much.. .

 

[WestCoast]

Lufthansa Group are the strongest in Europe though..

True and that's probably why it seems like they are a pact at Manchester. Outside Europe on the long-haul routes, Star isn't always like that. On a global scale, Oneworld seems to be more like a pact.

KLM are moving to T3 at Manchester in December to join AF.

In any case, I would tend to lean towards Virgin not joining an alliance for now, but I am sure they are getting worried about BA becoming stronger at Heathrow. They vehemently opposed BA and American Airlines's full partnership and this is worse than that.

Haven't flown with them for 6 years but I'd agree it wasnt anything spectacular even then on their flagship New York route. And carting holidaymakers to Orlando etc doesnt do their trendy image any good either I'd imagine! Again, a triumph of style over substance.

I reckon the holiday business is their future though. They are lucky in that their home base of Heathrow is one of the most popular business and tourist destinations in the world (London that is, not LHR!) and that's mainly how they survive since their short-haul feed from the UK and Europe is lacking.

The reason why I've mentioned Virgin so much is because for years many talked about a bmi and Virgin Atlantic merger and on paper it made a lot of sense. Bmi was mainly short and mid-haul into Heathrow and Virgin was long-haul, Heathrow's second airline would be created. It seemed like a perfect match, but bmi is/was a troubled airline and would have been too much for Virgin to handle.

 

[Schnellzug]

Branson has a track record of bailing out when he sees the opportunity. Although in fairness, the airline seems to have been closest to his heart.

I do understand the whole youthful, on-trend image thing but I will admit his constant chasing of headlines is a little tiresome. Maybe he'll look to unload to remaining Virgin shares which will result in the carrier losing it's name - it is what has happened to other Virgin businesses. He wouldnt want it to carry on without him surely?

He's going to expand into space travel, isn't he? That's the new growth area, since the abandoning by NASA of manned space flight.

 

[WestCoast]

He's going to expand into space travel, isn't he? That's the new growth area, since the abandoning by NASA of manned space flight.

Get booking at www.VirginGalactic.com!

 

[trentside]

I reckon the holiday business is their future though. They are lucky in that their home base of Heathrow is one of the most popular business and tourist destinations in the world (London that is, not LHR!) and that's mainly how they survive since their short-haul feed from the UK and Europe is lacking.

The reason why I've mentioned Virgin so much is because for years many talked about a bmi and Virgin Atlantic merger and on paper it made a lot of sense. Bmi was mainly short and mid-haul into Heathrow and Virgin was long-haul, Heathrow's second airline would be created. It seemed like a perfect match, but bmi is/was a troubled airline and would have been too much for Virgin to handle.

I agree that Virgin's holiday business is likely to be their future. Looking a recent reviews of their onboard product, it certainly doesn't match up to that being offered by British Airways IMO. I saw an image of some of the economy food recently and thought it resembled something of charter airlines in the 1990s. Quite simply, Virgin no longer appear to have that quality image - they try to portray it, but I don't think that's the experience you get onboard.

While I think that Virgin and bmi seemed like the ideal match, the trouble was that are Virgin in a position to sustain the financial hit that would come with acquiring such a troubled airline? I'm not sure, but they certainly would not be as well equipped as IAG.

As an aside, I've read comments in the last few days from many people who are sad to see the demise of bmi. Despite their problems, it certainly appeared that they had loyal and satisfied customers and I for one will be sad to see their attractive colours gone for good.

 

[WestCoast]

I agree that Virgin's holiday business is likely to be their future. Looking a recent reviews of their onboard product, it certainly doesn't match up to that being offered by British Airways IMO. I saw an image of some of the economy food recently and thought it resembled something of charter airlines in the 1990s. Quite simply, Virgin no longer appear to have that quality image - they try to portray it, but I don't think that's the experience you get onboard.

Yes, I agree, but competition in terms of service and product over the Atlantic isn't really too much of an issue. Apart from BA, on the Heathrow routes Virgin's main competition is the stateside carriers such US Airways, American and United. We're talking charging for alcoholic drinks, limited entertainment options, outdated cabins e.t.c. Their products, especially on the 757s narrow-body aircraft are worse than Virgin. At least Virgin have some smart aircraft. Even so, for an airline owned 49% by one of the world's most respected carriers, Singapore Airlines, famed for top notch service, it's slightly disappointing that they can't match BA.

BA and American Airlines have a joint operation over the atantic with the former offering a rather better product, but I am sure many people book with BA and end up on American.

On the holiday routes, Virgin matches the likes of Thomson and Monarch easily.

 

[starrymarkb]

That's definitely a part of it. Acting as the key regional airline of the UK in lieu of BA is another. They are even doing summer charters now!



They have been due for a while! Personally, I wish they had bought the Bombardier CRJ-900/1000 series, but only because I like the look of them. I have nothing against the E-jets (very comfy indeed) but everyone and their brother is ordering them in Europe (probably because they are so good!).

BE were burnt badly by the CRJ in the early 2000s, they were interested in the CRJ for the most recent order but ruled it out as adding another fleet type would be too high risk. What they really wanted was the Q400X/Q500, but Bombardier weren't interested (and the C-Series is too big) but they got sweeteners from the Brazilian Export Bank to make the economics of the E175 match the Q400X.

Most of the stuff I've heard says the CRJ is awful from a passenger viewpoint.

 

[ChrisCooper]

I think one of the problems with Virgin is that the brand has become too big, and instead of being a trendy, exciting thing, it's become everyday. Virgin Trains probably didn't help it, as much as you try you can't make everyday train services exciting and different. The majority of VT customers have used VT because it's the only or most practical option, not because it's Virgin. Most probably wouldn't care if VT lost the West Coast. The VT brand is fairly weak, and Cross Country weakened it further. Basically, for most people it's Intercity West Coast and was Intercity Cross Country, but just happened to use the Virgin brand and colours.
Buying NTL and Telewest further hurt the brand IMHO. Again people don't have Virgin Media because it's Virgin, infact I'm sure I'm not the only one who has it despite it being Virgin. People have it because it's the only option other than Sky or Freeview. Again it's just the cable TV operator in the UK. Many customers were customers when it was NTL and Telewest (or in my case Diamond Cable, which a few of our things still say), and wouldn't care if Virgin sold it.

 

[starrymarkb]

Virgin Media is NTL/Telewest, they bought Virgin Mobile and hence got the rights to the Virgin name

 

[WestCoast]

Most of the stuff I've heard says the CRJ is awful from a passenger viewpoint.

There is a considerable difference between the sub-types. The CRJ-200 is not very spacious at all (it's equivalent would be the EMB145), but the interior of the CRJ-900 and CRJ-1000 models are actually quite pleasant (slightly better than the dash I would say). I say this after having flown on the Eurowings CRJ-900 (Lufthansa Regional), which flies into quite a few UK airports, including Newquay.

 

[starrymarkb]

Though IIRC the ERJ is 2+1 and the CRJ is 2+2 which would make a big difference to comfort between the types

 

[WestCoast]

Though IIRC the ERJ is 2+1 and the CRJ is 2+2 which would make a big difference to comfort between the types

The EMJ145 has a narrower fuselage IIRC, although I prefer it to the CRJ-200.

In any case the new generation, longer CRJs (700/900/1000) have interiors like this. They aren't too dissimilar to the ERJ175/190/195.

As to what this has to do with BA buying BMI, I can't remember...

 

[starrymarkb]

True, might be worth starting an Aviation thread (much like the Stagecoach NW one but not as huge!)

 

[trentside]

IAG and Lufthansa have signed a binding agreement for the sale of BMI. IAG have warned of job losses, while Lufthansa has the option to dispose of both BMI Regional and BMI Baby separately.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16298167

 

[WestCoast]

As expected, really. I thought bmi Regional were going to be sold as a separate unit anyway?

 

[trentside]

As expected, really. I thought bmi Regional were going to be sold as a separate unit anyway?

It was mentioned at the time of the initial announcement, but this is the first time I've heard about BMI Baby - who would be interested in that, I wonder?