Bad manners on the roads

[jon0844]

It's only roudabouts where you always give way to the right.

But even then, you give way to vehicles already on the roundabout - so on a mini roundabout, you could see a car approaching at a reasonable speed and not give way. Once on the roundabout, they'd need to give way to you!

Mini roundabouts are fine in the vast majority of places, but have been put in some places where they're totally inappropriate - often making it impossible to even turn without crossing the centre 'island'. I have one outside my house and everyone turning right just goes on the wrong side.

Sorry, that's not right. It's not everyone. Just 99% of them - who all live down the cul-de-sac.

 

[Zoe]

Buses should MSM just as I should and there shouldn't be a need to flash them to let them know you're giving way as they always have priority at bus stops.

Unfortunately though it seems people don't always let the buses out. In quite a few areas they are filling in the bus laybys and having the buses stop in the road itself. This does slow down the traffic but guarantees the bus will not be delayed.

 

[90019]

Traffic calming is used for speed reduction. Why would I need to flash a driver there?

Because there are types of traffic calming which narrow the road, and there is no definite priority. In these cases, flashing your lights is used to indicate that you intend to give priority.

Narrow sections of road where there are no signs of priority. What about the most basic of Highway Code rules that states viz: give way to oncoming traffic? Why would I need to flash there and then? What about using the horn?

And when two cars arrive at the section at the same time?
Like the previous example, it signals intent to give priority and saves having both cars stopping or having a stnad off if both try to go.
Using your horn would achieve nothing in this situation.

Parked cars should judge themselves when it's safe to pull out and not disrupt the flow of traffic expecting a courteous driver to give way to them.

It is also considered courteous to allow parked cars to merge with the flow of traffic, by slowing slightly to create a gap if there isn't one there already and flashing your lights to show that you intend to allow them out.

Buses should MSM just as I should and there shouldn't be a need to flash them to let them know you're giving way as they always have priority at bus stops.

They do, but when the road is busy it is not always obvious whether a car is going to stop and let the bus out or overtake. Flashing your lights in this case again signals your intentions to allow the bus to move off.
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But even then, you give way to vehicles already on the roundabout - so on a mini roundabout, you could see a car approaching at a reasonable speed and not give way. Once on the roundabout, they'd need to give way to you!

Of course.
I was meaning when you have two cars stopped before the roundabout, you give way to the right.

Mini roundabouts are fine in the vast majority of places, but have been put in some places where they're totally inappropriate - often making it impossible to even turn without crossing the centre 'island'. I have one outside my house and everyone turning right just goes on the wrong side.

I remember years ago there used to be a double mini roundabout where the Barnton Junction now is in Edinburgh. That was always an interesting one to try and navigate when it was busy .
Mind you, I'm not convinced the overly complicated junction they've replaced them with is any better (not helped by the fact that not all the lights are synced with each other).

I find mini roundabouts tend to be alright, but there are definitely some drivers who need to be shown how to use them properly. Mind you, that goes for most things on the roads anyway.
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Unfortunately though it seems people don't always let the buses out. In quite a few areas they are filling in the bus laybys and having the buses stop in the road itself. This does slow down the traffic but guarantees the bus will not be delayed.

In a lot of cases, you just get a flow of cars overtaking the bus, meaning it still has to wait for someone to let it out.

 

[Zoe]

In a lot of cases, you just get a flow of cars overtaking the bus, meaning it still has to wait for someone to let it out.

Not if it's a busy road with only one lane in each direction. There would always be traffic in the opposite direction so there wouldn't be a time when you could overtake.

 

[anthony263]

i hate it when people dont park propoerly or park in stupid position. white van aman and the school mums parking in bus stops which isnt allowed and i have to struggle to get the bus in. I have taken someones mirror off before by doing that.

Another problem i have is with some cyclists who seem to want you to hit them, but pulling out of nowhere in front of you i have had 1 come off a cycle path straight onto the road the suddenly stop as he wanted to turn right.

Another problems i have had is car drivers cutting you as you come up the very steep hill in barry (anyone who has been there will know which hill i am talking about) and laugh as you then have to do a hill start which can be tricky with some older vehicles

 

[90019]

Another problem i have is with some cyclists who seem to want you to hit them, but pulling out of nowhere in front of you i have had 1 come off a cycle path straight onto the road the suddenly stop as he wanted to turn right.

There are quite a lot of cyclists around who seem to have a death wish.
It's the ones who seem to think they're above everyone else and think the rules don't apply to them.

 

[LE Greys]

Unfortunately though it seems people don't always let the buses out. In quite a few areas they are filling in the bus laybys and having the buses stop in the road itself. This does slow down the traffic but guarantees the bus will not be delayed.

They've done that in Graveley, and expanded the traffic islands so that a stopped bus blocks the entire road. It may have been done to make things deliberately slow for cars.

The thing I notice most as a pedestrian is people not signalling, then turning. This means if I want to cross a side road, I just have to guess whether they are going straight-on or not. It's actually my right of way, but it's usually safer to allow the car to turn. Thing is, if they don't indicate, then turn in hard, it's not very safe.

 

[Zoe]

It may have been done to make things deliberately slow for cars.

Is that a bad thing if it makes the bus journey times more reliable?

 

[LE Greys]

Is that a bad thing if it makes the bus journey times more reliable?

If it puts people off coming through the village instead of using the A1, then it's a good thing.

 

[jon0844]

There are quite a lot of cyclists around who seem to have a death wish.
It's the ones who seem to think they're above everyone else and think the rules don't apply to them.

I don't wish to wish ill of people, but so many of the cyclists I see in London have a death wish and I really can't see myself losing any sleep if one of them was killed by jumping lights, undertaking a lorry turning left or whatever other stupid things these people often do.

When the Winter draws in, you'll also see the 'ninjas' out without lights and just asking to be injured or killed.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Cutting corners and generally people not staying on their own side of the road is one that I get really annoyed with. I don't mind when there is nothing coming, I do it myself, but more and more people seem to do it regardless. The road I live on, the number of times I've had to brake harder to avoid someone turning right in who totally cuts the corner. Especially on country roads the number who cut the corner so they can go faster, not caring about the person the other way who they push into the kerb, either that or they swing wide when on the inside. I nearly lost a mirror recently because someone was sitting with their wheels on if not over the centreline because they were trying to overtake the lorry infront. This and many other things just come down to a general selfish "everyone else can get out of my way" attitude.

Another pet hate of mine, people who drive below the speed limit in a national speed limit area (despite perfect conditions), then continue to drive at the same speed (40mph is a favourite) when the speed limit drops. Another similar one is those who drive slow (which can include taking a few hours to pull away from the lights) yet then go through the lights as they change to red, leaving me who's following them to sit at the lights. Often to make things worse, this person will previously have pulled out infront of me (if you are in that much of a rush that you feel the need to pull out infront of an appoaching vehicle at least put your foot down and drive at an appropriate speed!).

 

[jon0844]

The belief that a speed limit is a limit not a target would probably get you failed if you went in for an advanced motorist test. If the road conditions allow, you should try and get to and remain at the speed limit to not hold up others.

Suffice to say, it's the people who stick to 35 or 40mph everywhere who are the least able to adapt to poor conditions and slow down because they'll think they are already doing a safe speed for ANY eventuality.

 

[Zoe]

The belief that a speed limit is a limit not a target would probably get you failed if you went in for an advanced motorist test.

That's all very well but there are quite a few narrow country lanes with passing places that are deristricted. I don't think anyone would dare driving at 60 mph on these roads so although 60 mph would be the legal limit it would not in this case be a target speed.

 

[90019]

That's all very well but there are quite a few narrow country lanes with passing places that are deristricted. I don't think anyone would dare driving at 60 mph on these roads so although 60 mph would be the legal limit it would not in this case be a target speed.

Nice selective quoting there.

Roads like that generally aren't safe to do 60 on (though there are plenty that are), but a lot roads that are national speed limit are safe to do so when the conditions allow.

 

[Zoe]

Nice selective quoting there.

The quote was referring to the point that 60 should be seen as a target, 60 is not a target it is a legal maximum. You can pass the driving test without ever having to drive faster than 40 mph and if people have the imperssion that a 60 mph limit sets a target speed at 60 mph it could be dangerous if they tried to drive at this speed on some roads. For a driving test the car must only be capable of 100 kmh (62.5 mph) and you could still end up on a dersetricted dual carriageway (70 mph) so you would pass driving lower than the limit.

 

[90019]

The quote was referring to the point that 60 should be seen as a target, 60 is not a target it is a legal maximum.

If you take the whole quote, rather than just picking out part of it, Jon didn't say that it is a target and he points out that when the conditions allow, you should stick to the speed limit.

The belief that a speed limit is a limit not a target would probably get you failed if you went in for an advanced motorist test. If the road conditions allow, you should try and get to and remain at the speed limit to not hold up others.

You can pass the driving test without ever having to drive faster than 40 mph

Where has anyone said this isn't the case?

and if people have the imperssion that a 60 mph limit sets a target speed at 60 mph it could be dangerous if they tried to drive at this speed on some roads.

Again, where has anyone actually said this?

For a driving test the car must only be capable of 100 kmh (62.5 mph) and you could still end up on a dersetricted dual carriageway (70 mph) so you would pass driving lower than the limit.

And...?

 

[Zoe]

The point is that some people have the impression that just as you can legally drive at 60 mph then you should do. 60 mph should not be considered as a target speed, I think there could even be a case for changing the speed limit for a deristricted single carriageway to 50 mph, just how many single carriageways can you think of where it's quite safe to do 60 mph?

 

[90019]

The point is that some people have the impression that just as you can legally drive at 60 mph then you should do.

Where the road conditions allow, you should travel at 60 to avoid causing problems for other road users.

60 mph should not be considered as a target speed, I think there could even be a case for changing the speed limit for a deristricted single carriageway to 50 mph, just how many single carriageways can you think of where it's quite safe to do 60 mph?

I can think of plenty.
All the ones around Edinburgh that I use regularly are safe for 60 along most of their length.

 

[Zoe]

Again, where has anyone actually said this?

John said in full

The belief that a speed limit is a limit not a target would probably get you failed if you went in for an advanced motorist test. If the road conditions allow, you should try and get to and remain at the speed limit to not hold up others.

He is saying that if you believe that the speed limit is not a target speed then you could fail an advanced test. People clearly do think that the speed limit is a target speed.
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All the ones around Edinburgh that I use regularly are safe for 60 along most of their length.

That may well be the case but I'd like to see less dangerous overtaking moves that some lunatics attempt, lower speed limits would help with this.

 

[90019]

John said in full
He is saying that if you believe that the speed limit is not a target speed then you could fail an advanced test. People clearly do think that the speed limit is a target speed.

If you use 'it's not a target, it's a limit' to drive at a low speed on a road where the conditions allow driving at the speed limit, you will most likely fail an advanced driving test.

That may well be the case but I'd like to see less dangerous overtaking moves that some lunatics attempt, lower speed limits would help with this.

No it won't.
You'll just get more dangerous overtakes as people get stuck behind others who use the drop in limit to go even slower.

Generally, people who have resorted to a dangerous overtake have done so for a reason (not all have, but most that I have witnessed have), and if you're being repeatedly overtaken in a dangerous manner, then chances are, you're the one driving dangerously and causing the problems in the first place. I'm not excusing dangerous overtaking, it's an incredibly stupid thing to do, and I've had near misses with people risking an overtake when coming towards me, but if you really are seeing it a lot, it suggests there's a problem with your driving more than there is with theirs.

It's like undertaking. If you're getting undertaken on a motorway, you're the one who's in the wrong lane.

Actually, that's a point, I'd like to see the people who drive slowly then accelerate as soon as you try to pass them banned from driving.

 

[Zoe]

Actually, that's a point, I'd like to see the people who drive slowly then accelerate as soon as you try to pass them banned from driving.

Last year I was in a car on a motorway where the driver didn't know the route that well and wanted to stop at a service station. We were in lane 3 at the time when I informed the driver that we needed to leave the motorway at the next junction in 1 mile for the services but there was a car in lane 2 that after we had almost overtaken decided to speed up and match our speed so we were unable to move into lane 2 and then lane 1 to leave the motorway and almost missed the junction. In the end the driver of the car I was in slowed down and the car in lane 2 overtook us so we could leave at the junction.

 

[Rugd1022]

The point is that some people have the impression that just as you can legally drive at 60 mph then you should do. 60 mph should not be considered as a target speed, I think there could even be a case for changing the speed limit for a deristricted single carriageway to 50 mph, just how many single carriageways can you think of where it's quite safe to do 60 mph?

A vast number of previously 60mph single carriageways which have been restricted to 50mph overnight..... with no explanation from anyone in authority as to why it was done. The Southam to Banbury road is an example which I use everyweek, nothing has physically changed on the route but the speed has been dropped. If it was safe to drive on at 60mph one day, it should still be safe to drive at that speed the next....

 

[T163R]

I went to UK in 2009 and in 2011 and I noticed that British drivers really got worse than before !

 

[jon0844]

That's all very well but there are quite a few narrow country lanes with passing places that are deristricted. I don't think anyone would dare driving at 60 mph on these roads so although 60 mph would be the legal limit it would not in this case be a target speed.

Did you read the whole of my comment? My point is Mr or Mrs locked-on-45mph would probably drive at 45mph around blind corners.

Mr or Mrs drive-to-the-limit-wherever-possible would be crawling around them, as they would VARY their speed for the prevailing conditions.

Which is safer I wonder?

Never did I say you always drive at the limit, which was pretty much the whole point of what I said. Advanced Motorists are not expected to drive slowly for no good reason, as it's completely unfair to other motorists who want to make progress and are legally entitled to do so. Courtesy plays a big role in driving, so you don't just pick a speed limit you feel comfortable with... obvious exceptions being a speed limited/restricted vehicle but I can't think of any car unable to reach at least 70mph, bar perhaps some all-electric vehicles.

 

[LE Greys]

To look at a specific example, the road outside my house has a 30 limit which used to be 40. This is because of the fact that it goes through a village and has some dangerous junctions in the middle. Some people still go through at 40. Several times I have been in cars following them through the 60 mph section from Baldock, the short dual-carriageway section between the roundabout and the turn-off, the 50 section from Jack's Hill to Graveley and the section through Graveley itself. They have done precisely 40 for almost the entire journey, heading off into the distance as cars behind braked for the 30 limit, and it is not really safe to overtake them on any such sections. Occasionally, people leapfrog both cars, and that is very dangerous, since the oncoming traffic can be bad and there are some blind summits. We also get some thick fogs occasionally, not to mention the snow last year, and people were still doing there precise 40 when a much slower speed would be safer. Is this not dangerous as well? If you have to go at a slower speed than normal (say because you are towing a trailer) then make sure there is enough room to pass wherever you can.

 

[Tomnick]

Interesting! To summarise this thread over the last 24 hours then, we've got one poster seemingly arguing that there's no need ever to let someone out at a junction (since when have you only had to give way to the right at a t-junction by the way?), and hence the fact that you should never ever use a flash of the headlights to indicate that you're letting them go won't be a problem. That poster than goes on to suggest that you'd be at fault if you flashed to let someone pull across in front of you who then collided with someone else, even though - in the same post - a flash of the headlights serves only to make them aware of your presence. So - according to that - you flash your headlights to make them aware that you're there, but it's your fault if they interpret that to mean something else and they pull out into oncoming traffic? Meanwhile, in the real world, I can think of many, many examples of times when I've been grateful that someone's let me turn right across them to fit into a rare gap in the traffic I'm trying to turn into, saving me potentially a few minutes at little or no cost to themselves (or vice-versa). Sometimes a dose of reality can be quite enlightening.

Then the old chestnut of speed limits not being a 'target' comes up again. If it's safe to drive at the speed limit for your vehicle (and the vehicle is capable of achieving the speed limit!), then it's pretty inconsiderate to do otherwise for long distances without pulling clear to let the inevitable queue disperse. I can live with that though - as others have said though, it's those who drive at a steady 40 or 45mph regardless of road conditions or the prevailing speed limit that irritate me. I'm sure some of the examples of dangerous overtaking mentioned earlier are the result of frustration so caused.

Finally for now, going back to the original post - a few years ago now, I followed a 4x4 on a fairly quiet main road (just the two of us, noone else in sight). Bigby High Road out of Brigg, for what it's worth. Somewhere around the left turn for Kettleby, a tractor is waiting to pull out of a farm on the left to go the same direction as us. Despite the fact that there's noone visible for some distance behind us, the 4x4 slows almost to a stand to let the tractor out (we'd both have been past anyway by the time the tractor driver realised what was going on!), and we then have to follow it at a crawl for some distance. Letting someone out isn't always the most appropriate or courteous thing to do!

 

[jon0844]

Tractors often wave you on, as they'd quite like to go behind you so not to feel pressured - or just out of courtesy. Many pull over when they can to let you safely pass.

Like with anything in life, some are total arses!

 

[Tomnick]

This tractor didn't, but I don't mind that so much. I just didn't see the point in the chap in front letting him out in the first place, when there was nothing behind our two vehicles to stop him coming out behind us!

 

[strange6]

Tractors often wave you on, as they'd quite like to go behind you so not to feel pressured - or just out of courtesy. Many pull over when they can to let you safely pass.

That may apply to rural tractor drivers but urban drivers just don't give a stuff in my opinion; and some have the barefaced cheek to look back at the long line of traffic behind them and still not pull over for a minute or two. It has not been unknown for me to give them the full fisted shuffle on overtaking them

 

[Old Timer]

This tractor didn't, but I don't mind that so much. I just didn't see the point in the chap in front letting him out in the first place, when there was nothing behind our two vehicles to stop him coming out behind us!

Lack of spatial awareness.

Same thing happens when someone with nothing behind them slows down to let a car cross across in front of them. The manouvre sometimes delays both parties ! All rather worrying, as they clearly are not aware of their surrounding environment or they would be able to work out that the other car could cross after they have passed.