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Bad news for Pensioners, Commuters etc in South Yorkshire

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34D

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I very much appreciate(d) the rail travel concession on my bus pass, and it was a right. Nobody likes having rights taken away, why should they?

I'm not one for semantics, but surely it was a discretionary entitlement that was withdrawn?
 
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Tetchytyke

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Of course, if pensioners were given free rail travel across the country like they are in Hungary ...

...then we'd be in exactly the same position as we are now with the buses.

Concessionary bus journeys are not "free", they are just paid for by somebody else. That somebody else is the people who have to pay the full fare.

If we're worried about "affordability" then the pass should be means-tested, and people of working age who are poor should be included in the scheme. There are plenty of wealthy pensioners who can well afford to pay for their own bus travel.

As an aside, I've paid taxes all my working life too...
 

cjp

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..

Concessionary bus journeys are not "free", they are just paid for by somebody else. That somebody else is the people who have to pay the full fare.

I think you will find that those who pay are not those who "have to pay the full fare" but all those who live in the Authority's area whether or not they travel on public transport. A much larger source of funding and so much less per head from those who pay.
#Thank you local Authorities up and down the country both large and small, efficient and inefficient, for my free travel. I make good use of my pass and would have no problem with a flat fee per ride to give something back and to "pay my way" in some small token fashion.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I think you will find that those who pay are not those who "have to pay the full fare" but all those who live in the Authority's area whether or not they travel on public transport. A much larger source of funding and so much less per head from those who pay.

I am glad to see that someone has seen fit to post the above clarification. What about those very large swathes of rural areas where no buses run. The residents in those areas still have to contribute from their localised council tax demands to this precept.
 

Tetchytyke

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I think you will find that those who pay are not those who "have to pay the full fare" but all those who live in the Authority's area whether or not they travel on public transport. A much larger source of funding and so much less per head from those who pay.

Yes and no.

Local authorities pay for the ENCTS reimbursements, and local authorities get their money from central Government, business rates and Council Tax.

Where the reimbursement rate is not sufficient then bus operators will increase fares to cover the shortfall. Council tax payers who also use the bus regularly (and pay a fare) will, in effect, be paying twice for all these "free" journeys.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Arctic Troll said:
Council tax payers who also use the bus regularly (and pay a fare) will, in effect, be paying twice for all these "free" journeys.

I am sorry, but I disagree with you. You are paying your bus fare for the actual journey that you are making, not for any other council-tax supplementary income, for who is to say that if what you say was true, can you assure yourself that it will not go towards matters such as other non-transport related services.
 

ECML180

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I am sorry, but I disagree with you. You are paying your bus fare for the actual journey that you are making, not for any other council-tax supplementary income, for who is to say that if what you say was true, can you assure yourself that it will not go towards matters such as other non-transport related services.

It's nothing to do with funding the council. It's funding the operator.

If a bus company for whatever reason is not making a profit on a route they may choose to increase prices to increase the revenue. If they aren't making a profit because the ENCTS pass makes them worse off, then the increase in price is to cover the shortfall to the operator, the council doesn't touch it!

Likewise the passenger could be paying more to cover for an increase in the price at a toll bridge the bus crosses. Equally operators may choose to charge less but attract more people to increase revenue, then the fare paying passengers have the ENCTS pass holders to thank for the lower price(though not for having less seats to choose from!).
 

tbtc

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Why all this "hate mail" about freeloaders?

I think that the criticism on here is of the system, not on the people making the most of that system

£13:55 expensive? I don't think so! That's what it costs from Chesterfield to Manchester with a railcard. [It's £20:50 without] And, East Midlands Trains do run an hourly direct service (via Sheffield) which takes about an hour and a quarter. So I think you ought to get your facts straight! ;)

An observation - people do not appreciate things they get for free. They come to regard them as a right.

£13.55 seems a reasonable fare for a journey of that distance, but (as brompton rail says) when people are used to getting something for free then they lose a perspective of "cost".

For example, there are very few bus journeys nowadays where the regular adult fare is much under £1.50 - even for a couple of stops - but I don't think that everyone appreciates that

I very much appreciate(d) the rail travel concession on my bus pass, and it was a right. Nobody likes having rights taken away, why should they?

I'm sure that I'd appreciate free rail travel too, but I'd never get ideas about it being a "right" - rights are things like freedom of religious practice/ freedom to assemble - but the "Freedom Riders" singing "We Shall Not Be Moved" on SY trains seem to think that they are campaigning for some human rights issue - just a little delusional.

What about disabled people? You seemed to have missed my point, or do you have objection to them too!

I woke up this morning to the Radio Sheffield news that Doncaster Council were closing all of their Old People's Homes.

Tonight's Look North tells me that Rotherham Council are closing half of their (remaining) Sure Start Centres.

Every day the local news seems to have headlines about such cuts.

We've lost libraries/ leisure centres/ fire stations/ large numbers of public sector jobs over the last five years.

In public transport terms, Rotherham sees cuts to various bus services next month (withdrawal of subsidised evening/ Sunday services on some routes). Community transport services (i.e. for those in great need) went up from a minimum fare of £1.50 to £2.00 a few weeks ago (i.e. for journeys under two miles).

But (despite disabled people getting a "mobility" component in their DLA?), we've got council money in South Yorkshire to pay for free train travel, including to Leeds/ Huddersfield etc?

Personally, I think that free train travel (especially free train travel to destinations outside South Yorkshire) is a bit of a luxury at the moment, when we are slashing public services left right and centre.

If you want to twist that into suggesting that I "object to" disabled people then I can't stop you, but I think you need to understand the situation in South Yorkshire and see the £400,000 a year cost of free train travel (over and above ENCTS requirements) in the context of other spending.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I find it amazing to read that ALL the current closures in the South Yorkshire Autonomous Oblast are down to nothing else but the ENCTS pass financing requirements.

Just think, if that scheme was ended overnight...as if by magic...then the consensus of opinion in that very specific region would be the end of all their problems:-
1)....Libraries would re-open and be packed to the rafters with those demanding the services offered.
2)....SureStart would be seen to be oversubscribed by parents demanding the full benefits these offer to the young children.
3)....Leisure Centres would open their doors again to the great benefit to the local populace who would oversubscribe all the offered facilities and a new breed of British athletes from South Yorkshire would go on to winning Gold Medals at the next Olympic Games.
4)....Fire Stations would not only reopen but the extra finance that came from the ENCTS pass savings would see whole fleets of new fire tenders purchased.
5)....Public Sector cuts would be overturned and council-funded pension scheme improvements would be immediately put into place.

Just think..all this will be possible just by overturning the local transport ENCTS pipe-dream of the great and respected Labour Party iconic figure who served both as Chancellor of the Exchequer and as Prime Minister from the land where they say they know the value of bawbees...I give you Gordon "Prudence" Brown.
 
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34D

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Just think..all this will be possible just by overturning the local transport ENCTS pipe-dream of the great and respected Labour Party iconic figure who served both as Chancellor of the Exchequer and as Prime Minister from the land where they say they know the value of bawbees...I give you Gordon "Prudence" Brown.

The thing is Paul, that you're probably correct with what could be achieved, such is the scale of ENCTS
 

ECML180

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3)....Leisure Centres would open their doors again to the great benefit to the local populace who would oversubscribe all the offered facilities and a new breed of British athletes from South Yorkshire would go on to winning Gold Medals at the next Olympic Games.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/the-n...-gold-tourism-leeds-york-dales-sheffield-hull

Already covered! ;)

The thing is, no-one is saying that the money from ENCTS will solve all problems, but at times when everything is being cut in most peoples opinion this is the least 'necessary' of all the council funded services, and so the money spent on it would be best spent elsewhere.

Taking forward your sports example, £400,000 would;
  • Provide free Athletic Club membership for 2000 children
  • Build changing room/clubhouse/cafe facilities
  • Bring Doncaster's athletics stadium up to international standard
  • Fund 10 years of small community outreach programmes
  • Provide coaching qualifications and paid coaching for 50 disadvantaged NEETs

All that untold health benefit as well as improving the social lives of all those involved, just for the price of a few pensioners travelling on trains where there are mostly bus routes to cover it.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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All that untold health benefit as well as improving the social lives of all those involved, just for the price of a few pensioners travelling on trains where there are mostly bus routes to cover it.

But the officially accepted use of the ENCTS pass only covers bus travel.

Nothing whatsoever to do with trains....or the Sheffield Supertram.
 

Deerfold

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But the officially accepted use of the ENCTS pass only covers bus travel.

Nothing whatsoever to do with trains....or the Sheffield Supertram.

But the point is SYorks are spending £400,000 (I'm assuming the figure above is correct) on extending that to trains for SYorks users.

So that's what could be achieved without touching the basics of ENTCS - how much more is spent on the basics?
 

ECML180

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But the officially accepted use of the ENCTS pass only covers bus travel.

Nothing whatsoever to do with trains....or the Sheffield Supertram.

And as stated above the addition of train travel costs £400,000, which as I suggested can have many other uses without detracting from the core use of bus travel.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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But the point is SYorks are spending £400,000 (I'm assuming the figure above is correct) on extending that to trains for SYorks users.

So that's what could be achieved without touching the basics of ENTCS - how much more is spent on the basics?

Why on earth should I be expected to justify any monies that are spent by the elected members of that authority on something that is both additional and exterior to the basic bus-use only costs of the ENCTS pass.

It was the local electorate of that area who saw fit to appoint these same councillors and it is now up to the same electorate to judge them on their actions.
 

Deerfold

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Why on earth should I be expected to justify any monies that are spent by the elected members of that authority on something that is both additional and exterior to the basic bus-use only costs of the ENCTS pass.

It was the local electorate of that area who saw fit to appoint these same councillors and it is now up to the same electorate to judge them on their actions.

I thought this thread was disscussing what's happened in South Yorkshire?

I don't think anyone expects you to justify what South Yorks decides but you commented that this was outside the scope of ENTCS.
 

34D

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But the point is SYorks are spending £400,000 (I'm assuming the figure above is correct) on extending that to trains for SYorks users.

So that's what could be achieved without touching the basics of ENTCS - how much more is spent on the basics?

To be clear, was £400,000 the annual cost of providing rail travel to elderly and disabled (which ceased in March) or is it the cost of providing the rail benefit to the disabled only?

I am shocked that part of the justification for this was that disabled people found it hard to deal with coins - if that was said in any context other than giving them a freebie then people would get hauled over the coals.
 

tbtc

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I find it amazing to read that ALL the current closures in the South Yorkshire Autonomous Oblast are down to nothing else but the ENCTS pass financing requirements.

Just think, if that scheme was ended overnight...as if by magic...then the consensus of opinion in that very specific region would be the end of all their problems:-
1)....Libraries would re-open and be packed to the rafters with those demanding the services offered.
2)....SureStart would be seen to be oversubscribed by parents demanding the full benefits these offer to the young children.
3)....Leisure Centres would open their doors again to the great benefit to the local populace who would oversubscribe all the offered facilities and a new breed of British athletes from South Yorkshire would go on to winning Gold Medals at the next Olympic Games.
4)....Fire Stations would not only reopen but the extra finance that came from the ENCTS pass savings would see whole fleets of new fire tenders purchased.
5)....Public Sector cuts would be overturned and council-funded pension scheme improvements would be immediately put into place.

Just think..all this will be possible just by overturning the local transport ENCTS pipe-dream of the great and respected Labour Party iconic figure who served both as Chancellor of the Exchequer and as Prime Minister from the land where they say they know the value of bawbees...I give you Gordon "Prudence" Brown.

I'm glad to hear that you find this all so amusing from your vantage point.

But, here in SY, there are a lot of people affected by cuts, people of all ages. The £400,000 cost of providing free train travel each year is equivalent to employing a number of Sure Start workers/ Library staff/ Leisure Centre employees.

However we see local Pensioners claiming that free train travel is a "right", singing songs about how they "shall not be moved", likening boarding local trains with no intention to pay to the "mass protest" on Kinder Scout, demanding the "right" to travel to Leeds for free...

...I personally think that cash strapped councils have better things to fund than free train travel for pensioners.

But the officially accepted use of the ENCTS pass only covers bus travel.

Nothing whatsoever to do with trains....or the Sheffield Supertram.

Paul - this thread was set up to discuss the cuts to train travel in South Yorkshire (to save £400,000 pa).

As has been discussed, this is something over and above the cost of ENCTS to the local councils. The fact that people keep (deliberately?) confusing free train travel with the ENCTS requirements for free bus travel means that it's harder to have a sensible argument about the recent cuts in SY, but these are two separate things.

If you want to discuss ENCTS generally then maybe that requires it's own thread?

But the point is SYorks are spending £400,000 (I'm assuming the figure above is correct) on extending that to trains for SYorks users.

So that's what could be achieved without touching the basics of ENTCS - how much more is spent on the basics?

You are correct - £400,000 is the cost of the additional things that SY funded for a number of years, and has now run out of money for, hence the recent cuts. I don't know what ENCTS costs local taxpayers, but I suspect that any figure would be meaningless as there's no realistic chance of ENCTS changing any time soon anyway.

I thought this thread was disscussing what's happened in South Yorkshire?

I don't think anyone expects you to justify what South Yorks decides but you commented that this was outside the scope of ENTCS.

It was set up (by me) to discuss that very point. Problem is that when you discuss any cuts like this you attract the "oh, I suppose you want to cut all travel for pensioners" arguments (plus accusations that I have "a problem" with disabled people, for thinking that free train travel to Leeds for people who get a mobility allowance shouldn't be a priority).

Basically, there's a lot of "whataboutery" here that distracts from the problems faced by SY councils.
 

NorthernSpirit

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However we see local Pensioners claiming that free train travel is a "right", singing songs about how they "shall not be moved", likening boarding local trains with no intention to pay to the "mass protest" on Kinder Scout, demanding the "right" to travel to Leeds for free...

...I personally think that cash strapped councils have better things to fund than free train travel for pensioners.

Exactly, the thing is what gets me is that the majority of South Yorkshire's pensioners are hardcore Labour voters, who it seem think that there is a bottomless pit of money where they can have everything free. Its time for them to wake up and realise the damage they're causing by their, quite frankly, selfish actions of demanding to go to Leeds, Huddersfield or whereever for nowt.

Politically, I don't seen any point holding elections in South Yorkshire as the sheep keep voting in the same old party, this same old party should make a few cuts to the ENCTP scheme where by the Supertram pulls out of it too and the hours get reduced for South Yorkshire Senior pass holders, they'll soon vote in another party.
 

brompton rail

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Exactly, the thing is what gets me is that the majority of South Yorkshire's pensioners are hardcore Labour voters, who it seem think that there is a bottomless pit of money where they can have everything free. Its time for them to wake up and realise the damage they're causing by their, quite frankly, selfish actions of demanding to go to Leeds, Huddersfield or whereever for nowt.

Politically, I don't seen any point holding elections in South Yorkshire as the sheep keep voting in the same old party, this same old party should make a few cuts to the ENCTP scheme where by the Supertram pulls out of it too and the hours get reduced for South Yorkshire Senior pass holders, they'll soon vote in another party.

I take it you have evidence that "the majority of South Yorkshire's pensioners are hardcore (what ever that means) Labour supporters"? Given that two thirds of voters DIDN'T Vote in the recent elections and votes are not allocated to age groups, I think you will see your statement lacks evidence.

As the protests are attracting a small group of people - photos seem to suggest many of the protesters are disabled - in Barnsley and Sheffield (& none in Rotherham or Doncaster) their political power seems limited.

As I understand our democratic system voters are free to vote for whoever they believe will represent their interests, and without being insulted because their choice is not yours.

This thread is about SY's withdrawal of free train travel from ENCT pass holders. This has now been in place since the end of March, though an amendment to allow rail travel by disabled ENCT scheme users was implemented early in June. No other changes are likely, the ENCTscheme will continue until such time as a Westminster government changes it.

I can't see any further purpose is served in feeding the thread and going round in circles.
 

AndrewP

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An issue here is that if someone has something like this they don't see it as a benefit until it is taken away.

I think the provision of free / discounted service should be consistent on a national basis but it would be a brave government that did this.

Where money is limited and choices have to be made it is never easy as everyone's priorities will be different and what matters to one will be irrelevant to others and someone will be upset.
 

ECML180

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Pensioners were petitioning for free rail travel on Frenchgate in Doncaster today with another gang around the corner on Baxtergate petitioning against care-home closure...hope they don't meet in the middle!
 

neilmc

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If Labour-voting South Yorkshire pensioners think there's a "bottomless pit of money" to pay for their exotic ventures to err ... Leeds and Huddersfield and Pontefract ... well, I used to think there was a "bottomless pit of coal" located in South Yorkshire which these folk and their spouses obligingly dug up for us until Margaret Thatcher put a stop to that.
 

natureboy

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If Labour-voting South Yorkshire pensioners think there's a "bottomless pit of money" to pay for their exotic ventures to err ... Leeds and Huddersfield and Pontefract ... well, I used to think there was a "bottomless pit of coal" located in South Yorkshire which these folk and their spouses obligingly dug up for us until Margaret Thatcher put a stop to that.

Arthur Scargill was the one who wrecked the coal industry not Margaret Thatcher. Some collieries had to be closed because the amount of money the coal sold for was far less than the cost involved in bringing it to the surface. Imported coal is cheaper. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow. However, when foreign coal has gone we'll still have British coal left to dig out and sell for a fortune! Think what life might be like then.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Plus Pontefract Bagill and Keighley (once a week)

Pass holders are not allowed to travel beyond Leeds. I was told this by NT staff.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm glad to hear that you find this all so amusing from your vantage point.

But, here in SY, there are a lot of people affected by cuts, people of all ages. The £400,000 cost of providing free train travel each year is equivalent to employing a number of Sure Start workers/ Library staff/ Leisure Centre employees.

However we see local Pensioners claiming that free train travel is a "right", singing songs about how they "shall not be moved", likening boarding local trains with no intention to pay to the "mass protest" on Kinder Scout, demanding the "right" to travel to Leeds for free...

...I personally think that cash strapped councils have better things to fund than free train travel for pensioners.



Paul - this thread was set up to discuss the cuts to train travel in South Yorkshire (to save £400,000 pa).

As has been discussed, this is something over and above the cost of ENCTS to the local councils. The fact that people keep (deliberately?) confusing free train travel with the ENCTS requirements for free bus travel means that it's harder to have a sensible argument about the recent cuts in SY, but these are two separate things.

If you want to discuss ENCTS generally then maybe that requires it's own thread?



You are correct - £400,000 is the cost of the additional things that SY funded for a number of years, and has now run out of money for, hence the recent cuts. I don't know what ENCTS costs local taxpayers, but I suspect that any figure would be meaningless as there's no realistic chance of ENCTS changing any time soon anyway.



It was set up (by me) to discuss that very point. Problem is that when you discuss any cuts like this you attract the "oh, I suppose you want to cut all travel for pensioners" arguments (plus accusations that I have "a problem" with disabled people, for thinking that free train travel to Leeds for people who get a mobility allowance shouldn't be a priority).

Basically, there's a lot of "whataboutery" here that distracts from the problems faced by SY councils.

ALL free travel should be stopped immediately! Why should the poor old tax payer fund this at the expense of libraries, leisure centres etc.? It's got to stop because the country can't afford it! After 09:30 make it half-fare on bus, tram, tube and train no less. Don't like it? Hard luck.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I will make this my final return to this thread to state that as each month passes, the advent of the next General Election draws ever nearer and each of the main political parties will have to state exactly what they see should happen to make the country fit their own ideals.

It will be then that the electorate suddenly realise that they actually have the power to put a Government in power, but this is a responsibility that they should grasp and if vast swathes of them are apathetic in certain areas, they do the rest of the nation's electorate no favours.

I will ask if, seeing as a certain transport matter that the Labour Party was instrumental in putting in place, what is the currently-held view by the Labour Party on this self-same subject. Have the current Members of Parliament in the South Yorkshire area made any personal statements upon the matter in hand, that the electorate can hear ?
 

WillPS

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I will make this my final return to this thread to state that as each month passes, the advent of the next General Election draws ever nearer and each of the main political parties will have to state exactly what they see should happen to make the country fit their own ideals.

It will be then that the electorate suddenly realise that they actually have the power to put a Government in power, but this is a responsibility that they should grasp and if vast swathes of them are apathetic in certain areas, they do the rest of the nation's electorate no favours.

I will ask if, seeing as a certain transport matter that the Labour Party was instrumental in putting in place, what is the currently-held view by the Labour Party on this self-same subject. Have the current Members of Parliament in the South Yorkshire area made any personal statements upon the matter in hand, that the electorate can hear ?
The older you are, the more likely you are to vote. We shall not hear of bus pass scheme withdrawals or down-sizing as part of any manifesto.

One day, a government will have to face it and accept the scheme is unviable; same as all universal pension-age benefits. They might be there to see out your life but they certainly wont be there to see out mine.
 

34D

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Pass holders are not allowed to travel beyond Leeds. I was told this by NT staff.

I understood the rule was 'any direct Northern train from South Yorks to any West Yorks station' - but am open to correction with a suitable link.
 

Harpers Tate

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Indeed that WAS the stated rule. And, I presume it still is as regards Disabled passholders. The train has to be a through train - no change of train in West Yorks is allowed. That's all.

Presumably, the once a week Keighley suggestion refers to the Sunday only through service from Sheffield to Carlisle. It seems likely that this service has a crew change in Leeds. It seems plausible that the conductor on such a train may well overlook the fact he's working what's advertised as a through service or, indeed, may not be aware (or is not reminded frequently enough by usage) of this precise validity. And thus may misinterpret the "rule" as "not beyond Leeds" which is of course the case in practice at any other time of the week.
 

Surreyman

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The older you are, the more likely you are to vote. We shall not hear of bus pass scheme withdrawals or down-sizing as part of any manifesto.

One day, a government will have to face it and accept the scheme is unviable; same as all universal pension-age benefits. They might be there to see out your life but they certainly wont be there to see out mine.

Interesting that Milliband has just announced a proposal which would limit benefit payments to unemployed young people unless they join a training scheme.
Political parties are definitely aware that 'Oldies' vote, they don't seem to too concerned about the 'Youth' vote.
 
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