Bailiffs after unpaid ticked

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by xdrdaniel, 12 Jun 2018 at 18:45.

  1. xdrdaniel

    xdrdaniel Member

    Messages:
    9
    Joined:
    Tuesday
    Hi, here is my story.
    Last year I was going to work by train and fogot my return ticket at home. I only noticed this in the evening, while I was at the destination station... At the gate there were railway agents so I decided to call my girlfriend and ask her to bring me the ticket. When she arrived at the gate I tried to reach for the ticket she was handing me but the agents said that I vouldn't do that. And if I won't provide a valid ticket they will get my details.... I tried to tell them what happened but they didn't listen. So I gave them my driving licence and they told me that I will have to pay 20£ because I did have a ticket..I was scared so I just said "yes" and just agreed with them. After all 20£ is not that much. Meanwhile they told my girlfriend to get a refund on the ticket which she did. Months past and I never received anything, except a couple of weeks ago when I received a total amount of 393£. I was shocked... But slowly I started paying... 50£ then another 50£ and I paid 200£ but today I got an "removal notice" saying that I owe 508£ again ... what should I do?
     
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. AntoniC

    AntoniC Member

    Messages:
    471
    Joined:
    28 Dec 2011
    Location:
    Southport
    Are you in England ?

    Did you pay the £20 and get a receipt for it ?

    Are these Bailiff Officers Court bailiffs or private bailiffs ?

    Have you had any other prior correspondance before the Notice of Enforcement ?
     
  4. xdrdaniel

    xdrdaniel Member

    Messages:
    9
    Joined:
    Tuesday
    I'm in the UK, but not from UK. It said higher court magistrates Portsmouth... I didn't pay at the time because they told me to wait a couple of days. I first started to receive a notice of fine. From there I started to pay little by little, as much as could, then I got a notice of enforcement last week and this week I got the removal notice...
     
  5. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

    Messages:
    2,435
    Joined:
    3 Feb 2013
    I would say that the absolute priority is to pay the money to satisfy the bailiffs. They will be chasing the amount that has been agreed by the court and this may not take any account of instalments you have sent. Such instalments will be fairly meaningless to the company that the debt is owed to if they were paid without an agreement to pay in that way was in place. If you sent cheques, then establish whether those cheques have been cashed and if they have then you will need to contact the company to establish whether they have taken these into account. The amount you now owe includes court and bailiffs fees, and have arisen because you did not pay the £20 when the Penalty Fare had been issued. I can't see how the amount now owed could realistically be challenged, but that's others may hold a different view.
     
  6. xdrdaniel

    xdrdaniel Member

    Messages:
    9
    Joined:
    Tuesday
    I understand but I never received the 20£ penalty fare and I just thought that they only tried to scare me. I only received the notice to pay 400£ and that happened 7 months after. Does that mean that I've lost the money that I have already paid and now I have to pay again for 500£ (ammount outstanding now)?
     
  7. robert7111a

    robert7111a Established Member

    Messages:
    1,643
    Joined:
    24 Apr 2014
    Location:
    PTSO or platform depending on the weather
    Why did you not pay the 20£ there and then considering you said "yes" and agreed with them? Were you not offered this option, rather than wait a couple of days?

    That would have probably ended the matter altogether
     
  8. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    17,059
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    A valid question but not of much use now.
     
  9. Puffing Devil

    Puffing Devil Member

    Messages:
    1,008
    Joined:
    11 Apr 2013
    Extremely important - did you find out about this fine more or less than 21 days ago?

    If it's within 21 days you need to visit a solicitor immediately and make a Statutory Declaration to have the conviction (and the debt) set aside.

    More than 21 days and you can still make an application to the court to have the matter set aside, though I would recommend face to face legal advice and not an internet forum.

    When I say set aside, I mean having the matter reset in the court to the summons stage. This will prevent the bailiffs collecting on the debt. See a solicitor and they will be able to advise properly. Any local criminal law solicitor will be able to help, but time is of the essence.
     
  10. AntoniC

    AntoniC Member

    Messages:
    471
    Joined:
    28 Dec 2011
    Location:
    Southport
    On the Notice of Enforcement who are the bailiffs ?

    Have you been found guilty at the magistrates court ?

    The fees should be :

    £75 for the Notice of Enforcement
    £235 Removal Fee and the balance will be the fine imposed by the Court (if you have been found guilty in the Magistrates Court).
    Is this the case ?
     
  11. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

    Messages:
    2,435
    Joined:
    3 Feb 2013
    It appears to be a Penalty Fare, which would be significantly different, I believe.
     
  12. xdrdaniel

    xdrdaniel Member

    Messages:
    9
    Joined:
    Tuesday
    Yes I was charged those ammounts, so I think I was found guilty. Can I actually go to jail for this? For 2.7£, the price of the train ticket?
     
  13. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    17,059
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    For the train ticket, no.
     
  14. talldave

    talldave Established Member

    Messages:
    1,356
    Joined:
    24 Jan 2013
    Did your girlfriend have her own return ticket? How did you both travel home? Did she get a refund on the return ticket for which you'd already used the Outward portion (even though you didn't have it on you when you travelled)?
     
  15. xdrdaniel

    xdrdaniel Member

    Messages:
    9
    Joined:
    Tuesday
    For not paying the fine then? What would happen if I didn't pay?
     
  16. xdrdaniel

    xdrdaniel Member

    Messages:
    9
    Joined:
    Tuesday
    No, I used to buy them separately. My girlfriend was home, I was coming back from work. When I got in the train station in the evening I realized that I forgot my othro ticket do I asked her to bring it. The agent then told her to get a refund
     
  17. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    17,059
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    Well, if it is a Court-imposed fine and you don't pay it they have the power to arrest your earnings (basically take the money from your gross pay) and in extreme cases, yes you can be jailed.
     
  18. talldave

    talldave Established Member

    Messages:
    1,356
    Joined:
    24 Jan 2013
    Ok sorry, I thought you were at the "work" station, not your "home" station. So the inspectors presumably thought that your girlfriend had arrived at the station, bought a ticket and come immediately to the barrier to hand it to you? Since you no longer have the ticket you've lost the evidence of the ticket's "printed at" time which would prove or disprove such an accusation.

    I appreciate that I'm not providing much assistance, but the clarification may help others more skilled in the legalities of ticketless travel.

    Assuming that you take the Statutory Declaration route, I wonder if you have bank statement evidence showing your regular purchasing tickets in advance routine?
     
  19. Puffing Devil

    Puffing Devil Member

    Messages:
    1,008
    Joined:
    11 Apr 2013
    Looks to me like it was a fine imposed from the Mags court; I'm assuming that unpaid penalty fares from TfL end up as Byelaw Prosecutions - I have no experience having never been in a London court.
     
  20. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    17,059
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    Not directly. An unpaid Penalty Fare is a civil debt. What likely happened is that the PF was withdrawn and replaced by a Byelaw prosecution.
     
  21. Puffing Devil

    Puffing Devil Member

    Messages:
    1,008
    Joined:
    11 Apr 2013
    That's what I meant, though it got lost in the brevity.

    That said, if the PF is a Civil Debt, it may explain the bailiffs, but not the ref to the Mags court, which is bizarre as Plymouth?

    The OP does need some face to face advice to untangle this.
     
  22. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

    Messages:
    2,435
    Joined:
    3 Feb 2013
    Or even Portsmouth!
     
  23. island

    island Established Member

    Messages:
    9,562
    Joined:
    30 Dec 2010
    Location:
    0036
    Unpaid magistrates court fines can also be collected by bailiffs.
     
  24. Puffing Devil

    Puffing Devil Member

    Messages:
    1,008
    Joined:
    11 Apr 2013
    I am aware of that. The question was if a PF turns into a civil debt, also collected by bailiffs. Though there should be no reference to a Mags court, as it would be a civil debt.
     
  25. Fare-Cop

    Fare-Cop Member

    Messages:
    794
    Joined:
    5 Aug 2010
    Location:
    England
    An unpaid Penalty Fare might be cancelled and a Summons issued for action in a Magistrates Court, but this seems to beg a number of questions.

    In order to have proven the case in the absence of the defendant, the prosecutor would need to satisfy the Court that the Summons and all other notices, including a copy of the PF, a statement from the inspector etc., had been served on the traveller in accordance with the requirements of CPIA (1996). This will include a certificate of service showing how and when the information was served on the OPs address.

    If the OP didn't get this, how did the Bailiffs notice get served? Had the OP moved address between the incident and the Court hearing?

    Secondly, where has the OP been making the £50 payments to and does the Op have evidence of these payments?
     
  26. Puffing Devil

    Puffing Devil Member

    Messages:
    1,008
    Joined:
    11 Apr 2013
    najaB is of the opinion that unpaid PFs can be civil debts, much like council issued parking tickets. I have no idea, as I've never been involved at that end of the process.

    To achieve a conviction in the Mags court all that would be required is a statement from the RPI saying that the OP was stopped and was not in possession of a valid ticket. The fact that a PF was issued and unpaid does not need to be mentioned.
     
  27. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Member

    Messages:
    1,007
    Joined:
    7 Oct 2017
    Location:
    Most likely somewhere on the WCML
    The relevant Penalty Fares Regulations specify that PFs may be recovered as a civil debt. However, such cases are extremely rare and I have yet to read of any such incidence. TOCs are geared up more towards using the criminal process to deal with ticketing issues, plus it seems to be used as more of a deterrent than merely being sued. They usually simply withdraw the PF and start a prosecution where a PF remains unpaid for longer than they want.
     
  28. Fare-Cop

    Fare-Cop Member

    Messages:
    794
    Joined:
    5 Aug 2010
    Location:
    England
    This may be helpful for some:

    An extract from Statutory Instrument (2018) No. 366 - Railways Penalty Fares Regulations 2018

    Penalty fares and criminal offences
    11.—(1) A person who has been charged a penalty fare under regulation 5(1) is not liable to pay where proceedings for any of the offences specified in paragraph (4) are also brought against that person in relation to the same failure to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket which gave rise to that penalty fare.

    (2) If a person to whom paragraph (1) applies has paid the penalty fare, or part of it, the operator on whose behalf the penalty fare was charged must refund that person the amount paid within the period of 10 working days, beginning with the day on which proceedings are brought.

    (3) Where a person falling within paragraph (1)(a) has appealed against the penalty fare under regulation 16, proceedings for any of the offences specified in paragraph (4) may only be brought against that person for the same failure to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket if the operator, on whose behalf the penalty fare was charged, notifies the relevant Appeal Panel that the penalty fare is cancelled before —

    (a) the relevant Appeal Panel has decided the outcome of the appeal under regulation 16; or
    (b) the time period mentioned in paragraph 6 of Schedule 2 expires,

    whichever is sooner.

    (4) The offences referred to in paragraphs (1) and (3) are the offences under —

    (a) Section 3(3)(a) or 5(3)(b) of The Regulation of Railways Act (1889), or
    (b) any byelaw under— National Railway Byelaws (2005) made under Section 46 of The Railways Act.
    .
     
  29. xdrdaniel

    xdrdaniel Member

    Messages:
    9
    Joined:
    Tuesday
    Guys, you lost me.... I payed the ammount to the Bailifs the very next morning. I don't know if I did the right thing, but I just feel that is was very unfair to pay over 700£ for an 2.7£ ticket. Also I heard that you can go to jail if you do not pay an magistrates fine. It's sad, and to me this is an extremely unnecessary measure, and makes me lose my faith in this country. That you can go to jail just for the price of a coffee.
     
  30. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

    Messages:
    2,435
    Joined:
    3 Feb 2013
    You didn't go to jail, and that wasn't the price of a coffee. You were provided with the opportunity to pay £20 and resolve the matter, but you didn't. Unfortunately you have now found out what the consequences are of not paying a small amount when you have the chance.
     
  31. xdrdaniel

    xdrdaniel Member

    Messages:
    9
    Joined:
    Tuesday
    I never had the opportunity to pay the 20£ penalty fare. After I left the train station that night nothing happened for 7 months and then I get an envelope saying that I owe 400£
     

Share This Page