Bakerloo line: an embarrassment to London?

[Scotrail12]

I can remember sitting on a northern line train and feeling the carriages walls moving relative to the seat. Wooden floor, wooden seat frames, wood panelling. Proper tube train noises too, like a 72 stock train but much louder and more pronounced "grinding" noise from the motors and gearboxes.

Wooden escalators, some with the treads in two halves, and the front half folded over the back half at the end, you could hear a kerclack-kerclack-kerclack as you got near the end, and had to step off before the tread folded.

Jointed track. Noisy and bouncy.

Northern line is completely soulless now.

Some of the Northern Line stations are quite interesting, especially the Leslie Green designed ones. Bank branch and anything south of Kennington is kinda soulless. Piccadilly is the most interesting IMO, that line is full of history and facts.

 

[bramling]

Some of the Northern Line stations are quite interesting, especially the Leslie Green designed ones. Bank branch and anything south of Kennington is kinda soulless. Piccadilly is the most interesting IMO, that line is full of history and facts.

Disagree - the Northern is by far the most interesting, however much of this interest is not directly in public view.

Being the pioneer Tube line there are features not seen elsewhere, down to small things like some of the tunnels not being perfectly round due to having been enlarged in the 1920s, or some of the disused features remaining from the original arrangement at Stockwell.

The Picc is really just plain tunnel, the only features of note being the disused stations. Much of the station architecture is nice though, especially the 1930s stuff.

Ironically for its modernity the Vic Line is fascinating from an engineering point of view. Plenty to see in the tunnels.

 

[Journeyman]

The Bakerloo line is unique in some ways, which explains why it's always had a tendency to run older stock. It's the only tube line of its vintage to retain its original central London terminus, Elephant & Castle, and since the opening of the Jubilee line, and transfer of Stanmore branch trains onto it, it's been fairly self-contained and hasn't needed a significant uplift in capacity, like other lines which have had extensions. It also doesn't need any rolling stock with unique features - for example, the 73 Stock was designed with Heathrow traffic in mind, and this allowed a significant cascade of other stock around the system. ATO upgrades are made more difficult by the extensive inter-running with the main line north of Queen's Park, and so the 72 Stock is sufficiently simple, robust and reliable for the time being.

The 80s/90s refurb on these was a good starting point for improving what was a good design, and the recent interior refresh is good too. Despite their advanced age, the trains don't look or feel anywhere near as decrepit as the 38s, 59s or 62s felt by the time they were withdrawn.

I'm not sure how well reliability is holding up these days, but when I worked and travelled on the line regularly, it seemed to perform well, and certainly didn't have "Cinderella" status.

 

[birchesgreen]

It's the only tube line of its vintage to retain its original central London terminus, Elephant & Castle

I hate to be that guy but the Bakerloo's original central London terminus was Kennington Road (Lambeth North) as Elephant & Castle was not quite ready for use at the line's opening, though was after a few months.

 

[Tetchytyke]

wonder if much of the old Angel station is remaining.

Nearly all of it is, including the original street-level building at the junction of Torrens Street/City Road/Goswell Road. The original island platform is still in use with one side filled in, it's why the southbound platform is so wide.

As for the original question, there's nothing wrong with the Bakerloo Line. It looks old because it is old, but I don't really agree with the other criticisms. It's no dirtier than any other line, really. And the trains don't look or feel any more dated than the 92 stock on the Central Line, despite being 20 years older. It is old but that doesn't make it uncared-for.

I quite like the older trains, they have a bit of character.

Disagree - the Northern is by far the most interesting, however much of this interest is not directly in public view.

Definitely agree. It's the little things like the northbound platform at Embankment being on a sharp curve, but the southbound platform being straight, as originally there was only one platform on a loop.

 

[xotGD]

It is only relatively recently that I realised the derivation of the name Bakerloo.

 

[Mikey C]

The 72 stock trains serve an important purpose as an ideal retort to anyone saying that London has all the newest trains, with the rest of the country running ancient 1980s stock

The Bakerloo Line does feel a bit of a time capsule, but then it's relatively quiet so the ancient trains and relatively poor frequency don't seem to matter so much. If Crossrail even opens, that will ease part of the pressure on it as well, as currently it's best connection Paddington and the heart of central London

By contrast the Piccadilly and Central Lines are far busier, and as a result the deficiencies of their stock stand out more

I can remember sitting on a northern line train and feeling the carriages walls moving relative to the seat. Wooden floor, wooden seat frames, wood panelling. Proper tube train noises too, like a 72 stock train but much louder and more pronounced "grinding" noise from the motors and gearboxes.

Wooden escalators, some with the treads in two halves, and the front half folded over the back half at the end, you could hear a kerclack-kerclack-kerclack as you got near the end, and had to step off before the tread folded.

Jointed track. Noisy and bouncy.

Northern line is completely soulless now.

As a regular user, the 95 stock and new signalling has transformed the Northern Line passenger experience, so much more reliable and regular

 

[trebor79]

As a regular user, the 95 stock and new signalling has transformed the Northern Line passenger experience, so much more reliable and regular

Oh I agree absolutely the northern line improvements were desperately needed. It exists to move people, not pander to my nostalgia!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Nothing wrong with the Bakerloo IMO. Very nostalgic feel to it. Almost feels like the old Waterloo & City

I find the trains much cleaner than the more modern Jubilee line trains

 

[Mikey C]

It is only relatively recently that I realised the derivation of the name Bakerloo.

It was opened to allow London's bread makers to go to the toilet

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Disagree. It's the most characterful line and I'm pleased as punch it looks likely to be preserved in aspic for a decade or more.

Absolutely this. It's nice to be able to sit normally on a tube, rather than all this new-fangled sideways malarkey on all the other inferior lines!

 

[Scotrail12]

By contrast the Piccadilly and Central Lines are far busier, and as a result the deficiencies of their stock stand out more

Are there much issues with the 73 and 92 stock? 73 is fairly modern for a class of their age. Never had an issue with 92 except for the windows and very quiet PA system (no idea why Emma Clarke's voice was always so quiet on announcements).

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I hate to be that guy but the Bakerloo's original central London terminus was Kennington Road (Lambeth North) as Elephant & Castle was not quite ready for use at the line's opening, though was after a few months.

That was always planned to be a temporary terminus, and as such, I wouldn't count it as the original terminus, even if technically it was for a few months.

It's nice to be able to sit normally on a tube, rather than all this new-fangled sideways malarkey on all the other inferior lines!

The Metropolitan line, fortunately, still has transverse seating! I'm sure you realise that longitudinal seating leads to higher capacity overall though...

 

[WideRanger]

Absolutely this. It's nice to be able to sit normally on a tube, rather than all this new-fangled sideways malarkey on all the other inferior lines!

Although you might want to consider that the seats that feel very comfy when travelling between Paddington and Charing Cross, were likely home to a pair of boots a few minutes earlier between Wembley Central and Willesden Junction.

 

[bramling]

Are there much issues with the 73 and 92 stock? 73 is fairly modern for a class of their age. Never had an issue with 92 except for the windows and very quiet PA system (no idea why Emma Clarke's voice was always so quiet on announcements).

The 92 stock does underscore the other stocks on customer surveys, though I’ve never really got why as I find them reasonably okay. The big issues are beneath the skin - there is a list as long as your arm of technical issues with these trains, such that a programme is currently in its infancy to carry out a considerable number of engineering changes to allow the stock to keep going.

Generally the 73 stock is still reasonably regarded. At one point they were amongst the most reliable on LU, but seem to have declined a little since. Interior wise there’s little between them and a 95 or 96 stock save maintenance and cleaning.

 

[Mojo]

The 92 stock does underscore the other stocks on customer surveys, though I’ve never really got why as I find them reasonably okay. The big issues are beneath the skin - there is a list as long as your arm of technical issues with these trains, such that a programme is currently in its infancy to carry out a considerable number of engineering changes to allow the stock to keep going.

I don’t know why, but the Tuppenny Tube always seems to be covered in graffiti internally, either still present or having (poorly) been cleaned off. The bulkheads behind the cabs seem particularly bad for this, and are usually stained in the gum from sticky tape.

 

[bramling]

I don’t know why, but the Tuppenny Tube always seems to be covered in graffiti internally, either still present or having (poorly) been cleaned off. The bulkheads behind the cabs seem particularly bad for this, and are usually stained in the gum from sticky tape.

It may well be partly that the depots are too busy keeping up with the major stuff. Certainly the Central doesn’t really outstable any more than other lines do.

 

[Mikey C]

The 92 stock does underscore the other stocks on customer surveys, though I’ve never really got why as I find them reasonably okay. The big issues are beneath the skin - there is a list as long as your arm of technical issues with these trains, such that a programme is currently in its infancy to carry out a considerable number of engineering changes to allow the stock to keep going.

Generally the 73 stock is still reasonably regarded. At one point they were amongst the most reliable on LU, but seem to have declined a little since. Interior wise there’s little between them and a 95 or 96 stock save maintenance and cleaning.

The ridiculously low and small seats on the 92s really let them down

The 73s had a very decent refurbishment but are looking a bit tatty these days

Both the 73s and 92s seems hotter inside than the 95/96s

 

[yorksrob]

My knowledge of tube stock is limited, but doesn't the Bakerloo stock still have those stylish round light fittings ?

 

[Dstock7080]

My knowledge of tube stock is limited, but doesn't the Bakerloo stock still have those stylish round light fittings ?

The ones fitted at refurbishment in early-90s as end-windows would’ve compromised the structure of the car?
Are being removed when the cars receive LED lighting.

 

[TRAX]

I love the Bakerloo, it’s a real time capsule and I’m very fond of the atmosphere especially on quieter summer evenings after, say, 8 pm. The sounds, the smells, the overall quietness of it, it’s a real gem of the network to me, although not my favourite line.

 

[yorksrob]

The ones fitted at refurbishment in early-90s as end-windows would’ve compromised the structure of the car?
Are being removed when the cars receive LED lighting.

Goodness, who'd have thought it from a light fitting !

 

[bramling]

The ones fitted at refurbishment in early-90s as end-windows would’ve compromised the structure of the car?
Are being removed when the cars receive LED lighting.

I thought the lack of end windows was more because of the amount of equipment located at the ends of the cars, not least where the guards panels used to be.

Does anyone know why they’re now being removed?

 

[Western Sunset]

Another vote from me for the Bakerloo. I find it quite a "cosy" line and, as others have said, there's a special atmosphere about it after around 9pm.

 

[greyman42]

Ironically for its modernity the Vic Line is fascinating from an engineering point of view. Plenty to see in the tunnels.

Can passengers see any thing of interest?

 

[bramling]

Can passengers see any thing of interest?

Not really. Again many of the extraordinary engineering features are hidden in the tunnels, or even in the depths of history - for example how one of the station tunnels at Oxford Circus was threaded beneath the basement of a department store.

 

[BrianW]

Not really. Again many of the extraordinary engineering features are hidden in the tunnels, or even in the depths of history - for example how one of the station tunnels at Oxford Circus was threaded beneath the basement of a department store.

Ah yes- department stores; I remember them well ...

 

[AlbertBeale]

I find the Central depressing - the dark window glass always makes me think the train is out of service when it arrives in a platform...

The Bakerloo is fun really - seeing people being surprised by the adjacent trains on the crossover at the north end of Picc Circus. Some tourist in the front coach of a northbound recently jumped when they heard a southbound rushing a few inches behind them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find the Central depressing - the dark window glass always makes me think the train is out of service when it arrives in a platform...

I always thought the Central looked quite classy for that exact reason.

 

[bramling]

I always thought the Central looked quite classy for that exact reason.

Unfortunately it's not so classy when they leak like mad and cause the bodyshell to deteriorate, or take an age (and cost a fortune) to replace when broken!

The problem with the 92 stock is they were the pioneer of a very many good ideas, but unfortunately many of these good ideas didn't work out too well in practice, or were simply overtaken by technology.

Having said all that, when it all works well the Central Line's rolling stock, signalling and ATO combination do work well. The problem is there's simply so many issues, a problem which is getting worse as the years go by.