Bakerloo line: an embarrassment to London?

bramling

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I like that the stations look a bit old, 'retro' if you will compared to many other stations. The stations are clean and serve their purpose perfectly adequately.

I used to like riding on the older trains on the Bakerloo and Piccadilly lines but I do think it is time they were replaced with something more modern. I realise this will be at least a few years away though. Does LUL even have the funds to replace these trains?
At this moment, no LU does not have the funds to replace, and hasn’t really done so for the last decade, hence why the can has been kicked so far down the road. Remember the Piccadilly fleet should have been replaced last decade, and that was deferred due to the PPP collapse.

As to what happens next, that will depend on what sort of financial deal LU gets from the government. Then there will be a shopping list of projects, and no doubt an element of prioritisation will be inevitable. So it’s a combination of what sort of settlement LU gets from the government and how far up (or down) the list Bakerloo fleet replacement is. That in itself may well be influenced by how the fleet performs over the next few years, which is a bit of an unknown, and also the small matter of how the Central Line fleet performs over the next few years, as that will influence the order of priorities.

I’d say the odds are fairly decent that these trains will see the 2030s. There’s a fair few schemes competing for finance - Piccadilly resignalling being a big one, and some costly stations works like Holborn and Camden Town. Choices will have to be made.
 
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3rd rail land

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The 94 new Piccadilly trains are funded, new factory in Goole being built and new train doors ordered. Nothing beyond that so far.
Didn't realise this. I have clearly been living under a rock in recent times!

What do you mean by train doors ordered? The trains are funded but they have only placed orders for doors, which sounds rather odd? When you say train doors do you mean platform edge doors for the platforms?
 

Dstock7080

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Didn't realise this. I have clearly been living under a rock in recent times!

What do you mean by train doors ordered? The trains are funded but they have only placed orders for doors, which sounds rather odd? When you say train doors do you mean platform edge doors for the platforms?
New trains from Siemens ordered November 2018:
Siemens to build new Piccadilly line fleet for London Underground

doors for said trains ordered August 2020:
Doors ordered for London Underground’s new Piccadilly Line trains
 

SECR263

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Seemingly every time a new replacement fleet is built a new factory is commissioned and when the trains are built the the factory runs down or shuts.

I understand the facility at that built the new 800's for LNER is short of work (?). Is it not possible for fleet builders to cooperate in factory use, as after all in the long run it is taxpayers who foot the bill.
 

Huntergreed

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The Bakerloo is a fantastic line, first half you run right alongside the WCML for a lot of it, plenty of trains to watch and scenery to enjoy.

The Tunnel section is just like all tube lines, I don’t see much of a difference between it and the rest of the lines in all honesty.

The stock is functional, comfy enough, and whilst it could be upkept slightly better, it certainly does the job and does it well enough.
 

Tetchytyke

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Who even remembers “the millennium dome” now?
It's still going strong as London's biggest music venue!

The Jubilee extension was a smidgeon late in comparison with this fiasco's most optimistic forecasts, and is totally unalogous because the sensible, pragmatic decision was made to alter the complex signalling to a less complex but proven system before it was too late, with the possibility of introducing improvements at a later date.
And the upgrade to the signalling, when it came, was massively over-budget and hugely disruptive. The Jubilee lost it's weekend service for the thick end of a year.

The problems with the signalling on the Jubilee and Northern had a knock-on effect on the sub-surface lines, ISTR.
 

Horizon22

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It's not the worst underground line so I'd disagree. The stations themselves aren't too bad and seem similar to the Picadilly or Central lines. The speed from the SE <> NW Central is fairly fast. It's really the stock that's the only problem with its flickering lights, limited space, lack of PIS etc.

But this is well known - internally and externally - and a stock change is coming although delayed of course by TfLs current financial woes.
 

bussikuski179

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The line is fine, the only problem is that the 1972 stock which are currently OK, probably won’t be replaced until the 2030s, so it’s possible some 72’s will go until 60 years old.
 

birchesgreen

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One of the best things about the Bakerloo Line is that it is the only deep level tube with transverse seating. I suspect that will be lost when the fleet is finally replaced sometime in the next decade.
 

trebor79

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It's not the worst underground line so I'd disagree. The stations themselves aren't too bad and seem similar to the Picadilly or Central lines. The speed from the SE <> NW Central is fairly fast. It's really the stock that's the only problem with its flickering lights, limited space, lack of PIS etc.
Actually I find the absence of continually scrolling displays and interminable auto announcements and positive.
 

Dstock7080

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One of the best things about the Bakerloo Line is that it is the only deep level tube with transverse seating. I suspect that will be lost when the fleet is finally replaced sometime in the next decade.
Some transverse seating will be lost when the wheelchair spaces are fitted.
 

MotCO

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As to what happens next, that will depend on what sort of financial deal LU gets from the government. Then there will be a shopping list of projects, and no doubt an element of prioritisation will be inevitable.
It also depends if the Government want to kick start the economy with some infrastructure type projects. By that I mean, post Bexit, we will be able to order trains from a British based company, using locally resourced parts, thereby boosting employment (or at the very least, retaining jobs) in the country. But it does depend if the Government are willing to do this (and can afford this - maybe it will be a case that it will not be able to not afford it, if you see what I mean).
 

AlbertBeale

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One of the best things about the Bakerloo Line is that it is the only deep level tube with transverse seating. I suspect that will be lost when the fleet is finally replaced sometime in the next decade.
Absolutely - the transverse seating is a reason I "enjoy" the Bakerloo.

Actually I find the absence of continually scrolling displays and interminable auto announcements and positive.
Indeed - I can sometimes actually think when on the Bakerloo. Announcements every few seconds on some lines are so distracting that it makes time on the journey wasted time - on the Bakerloo I get a chance to read and think.
 

bramling

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It also depends if the Government want to kick start the economy with some infrastructure type projects. By that I mean, post Bexit, we will be able to order trains from a British based company, using locally resourced parts, thereby boosting employment (or at the very least, retaining jobs) in the country. But it does depend if the Government are willing to do this (and can afford this - maybe it will be a case that it will not be able to not afford it, if you see what I mean).
Depends how far up the list Bakerloo fleet replacement is. I’d suggest that providing reliability of the 72 stock holds up to an acceptable level there would be other projects which would deliver more return for the money. Likewise Sadiq Khan May decide that freezing fares is more (politically!) prudent.
 
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Depends how far up the list Bakerloo fleet replacement is. I’d suggest that providing reliability of the 72 stock holds up to an acceptable level there would be other projects which would deliver more return for the money. Likewise Sadiq Khan May decide that freezing fares is more (politically!) prudent.
Central and Waterloo & City line, the '92 Stock, were higher on the list due to the line's being used substantially more. This is, of course, liable to change under the Covid-19 and financial circumstances
 

MotCO

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Likewise Sadiq Khan May decide that freezing fares is more (politically!) prudent.
But if the Government was offering capital investment, I doubt he would refuse - he would probably make political capital out of it.
 

gc1982

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Will they transfer some of the Piccadilly line stock to the Bakerloo when the new trains arrive? Surely they are in a better state than the 72 stock?
 

Journeyman

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Will they transfer some of the Piccadily line stock to the Bakerloo when the new trains arrive? Surely they are in a better state than the 72 stock?
The 73 stock vehicles are significantly longer, and I doubt they'll suit the curvature of the Bakerloo.
 

Kilopylae

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I can sometimes actually think when on the Bakerloo. Announcements every few seconds on some lines are so distracting that it makes time on the journey wasted time - on the Bakerloo I get a chance to read and think.
Completely. Riding the Victoria or the Northern is almost an active process; the constant scrolling PISs, high speed and frequent loud announcements make it feel very stressful and a bit chaotic/overcomplicated. Whereas on the Bakerloo, you can grab a comparatively comfortable seat (maybe even a transverse one) and just be psychologically left alone until you reach your stop. I've even managed to be reading a book!
 

birchesgreen

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It would hardly be a long term fix even if they did fit (which i don't think they will), they are only slightly younger (the clue is in the name). The final 73TS will not be replaced by 2024 Tube Stock until about 2026 so we can assume there would not be enough to cascade until 2025. There simply wouldn't be any point wasting money on transfer for just a few years.
 

Scotrail12

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Having the displays help those hard of hearing. The Bakerloo announcements are also way too quiet, I struggle to hear them - they should try to upgrade them to a newer version like what they have on the Victoria Line.
 

cactustwirly

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Completely. Riding the Victoria or the Northern is almost an active process; the constant scrolling PISs, high speed and frequent loud announcements make it feel very stressful and a bit chaotic/overcomplicated. Whereas on the Bakerloo, you can grab a comparatively comfortable seat (maybe even a transverse one) and just be psychologically left alone until you reach your stop. I've even managed to be reading a book!
It's a very similar system on the Bakerloo line, just without the screens??
 

greyman42

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I’d say the odds are fairly decent that these trains will see the 2030s. There’s a fair few schemes competing for finance - Piccadilly resignalling being a big one, and some costly stations works like Holborn and Camden Town. Choices will have to be made.
What needs doing at Holborn?
 

whoosh

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One of the best things about the Bakerloo Line is that it is the only deep level tube with transverse seating.
Am I the only one who thinks that changing them on other lines for longitudinal bench seating to "add standing capacity" actually doesn't as the seated passengers in the bench seats have their feet in the way of the standees who have to mind everyone's toes? No such nonsense with transverse seating - more people get a seat as more of them fit in the same amount of train length, and the same amount can stand without standing on anyone's feet.
It just seemed like they counted the floorspace as standing room, when some of it was needed for knees and feet.
 

43096

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Am I the only one who thinks that changing them on other lines for longitudinal bench seating to "add standing capacity" actually doesn't as the seated passengers in the bench seats have their feet in the way of the standees who have to mind everyone's toes? No such nonsense with transverse seating - more people get a seat as more of them fit in the same amount of train length, and the same amount can stand without standing on anyone's feet.
It just seemed like they counted the floorspace as standing room, when some of it was needed for knees and feet.
Except that the transverse seats are allegedly 2+2 but in reality are not quite wide enough so those people sat next to the aisle are half into the aisle which restricts standing space significantly. It's almost the same problem as 2+3 configuration mainline trains, but on the 72 stock it's 2+2 that is a problem.
 

Journeyman

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Except that the transverse seats are allegedly 2+2 but in reality are not quite wide enough so those people sat next to the aisle are half into the aisle which restricts standing space significantly. It's almost the same problem as 2+3 configuration mainline trains, but on the 72 stock it's 2+2 that is a problem.
They're certainly not very spacious, and fitting four people into a set of those seats is somewhat too intimate for most people's liking. All longitudinal does work better.

Anyone remember the 1986 Stock prototypes? One of those had 1+1 transverse seating in the middle of the car.
 

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