Bakerloo Line Extension to Lewisham

[Ianno87]

The route in the consultation was not what I was intended, but it's fine enough. I was expecting it to travel via (at a brief context) Denmark Hill, East Dulwich, Honor Oak Park, Catford interchanges, Hither Green and Grove Park to Bromley North.

The whole point of the extension is to improve access to the relatively isolate (in London terms) Old Kent Road area, and tie in to the ludicrous amount of development around Lewisham in recent years.

With the rerouting between Lambeth North and Elephant & Castle, could the current Bakerloo platforms be kept as turnarounds for short journeys (as with Queens Park and Stonebridge Park), or will it be demolished, or be preserved as heritage use?

I can easily imagine it'll be like the Victoria Line to Walthamstow (or Jubilee to Stratford); attempting to run short journeys just reduces the capacity of the line overall, and I can see a Lewisham extension sucking up a colossal amount of inner area demand that will require the full service frequency to serve there anyway. Plus keeping the existing Bakerloo platforms in service requires two sets of platform staff, and would not be accessible or of high capacity like new-build platforms would be.


However, I could imagine the existing Bakerloo platforms (and overrun tunnels beyond) being useful for stabling of stock and (like Charing Cross Jubilee Line platforms) as an emergency turnback during disruption or planned works.

 

[TubeMapCentral]

It's a fascinating exercise comparing NR station usage in London with Underground station usage. The unattractiveness or rail (versus Underground) really shows. My guestimate a few years ago was that if any NR station was magically plugged into the Underground, then it would be reasonable to expect daily station entries to triple (zones 2/3) or at least double (zone 4 and beyond). With some back of the envelope calculations, that took me to 40,000 weekday station entries a day from OKR1 (Burgess Park) to Catford Bridge, but only 20,000 station entries a day Lower Sydenham to Hayes, with the problem being badly sited stations and low density housing.

For reference, Buckhurst Hill to Epping is currently around 21,700 per day. West Finchley to High Barnet 19,900.

 

[telstarbox]

According to local blog 853, Bromley Council are still opposing the theoretical second stage extensio from Lewisham to Hayes, and instead want the DLR to extend from Lewisham to Bromley town centre:

Bromley has always objected to the loss of National Rail services – and direct trains to the City – on the Hayes route. While the Bakerloo line would be far more frequent, it would run via the West End and commuters would need to change trains to access the Square Mile if the Hayes look was built.

In 2018, Bromley’s response to mayor Sadiq Khan’s new London Plan – the City Hall planning bible – indicated that it would prefer to see a Docklands Light Railway extension from Lewisham through Catford to Bromley South via Bromley North, and that it wanted to safeguard land for such a route.

https://853.london/2020/02/26/we-st...sion-to-hayes-bromley-council-leader-insists/

I'm not sure how this would work at the Lewisham end. It couldn't take over Platforms 1 and 2 as these would still be required for the Orpington and Sidcup services. Maybe the DLR tracks would need to bridge over Platforms 3 and 4, then to new platforms just east of Platforms 1 and 2? Where it would go after that is tricky as there isn't much spare land towards Catford.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't think DLR to Bromley is an alternative for Bakerloo to Hayes, except in the sense of being a different way to spend the money. They solve different problems - DLR to Bromley would do nothing for Hayes passengers, who are mostly not likely to use Bromley as an alternative.

 

[telstarbox]

I think that's intentional.

Bromley Council say that West Wickham and Hayes residents want to keep their direct trains to Cannon Street, which they'd lose if it went over to the Bakerloo line. The DLR extension (if it's even buildable) would give Bromley a link to Canary Wharf (which BC call 'enhanced rail access to Bromley') in their response to the London Plan.

 

[Mikey C]

I don't think DLR to Bromley is an alternative for Bakerloo to Hayes, except in the sense of being a different way to spend the money. They solve different problems - DLR to Bromley would do nothing for Hayes passengers, who are mostly not likely to use Bromley as an alternative.

The plan to convert the Hayes branch to become the Bakerloo Line was surely driven by the desire to remove some trains from Lewisham and London Bridge, to enable strengthening of services elsewhere, rather than a particular desire to link Hayes to the Underground network!

 

[edwin_m]

The plan to convert the Hayes branch to become the Bakerloo Line was surely driven by the desire to remove some trains from Lewisham and London Bridge, to enable strengthening of services elsewhere, rather than a particular desire to link Hayes to the Underground network!

Indeed so, hence my reference to the two schemes solving different problems. Running DLR to Bromley wouldn't solve the Lewisham capacity issue and nor would it be useful to most City-bound Hayes passengers if the Hayes line did become part of the Bakerloo.

 

[Busaholic]

Personally, I think Tramlink has more chance of being extended to Bromley than the DLR has, and would be more justified. Outside of peak hours how many Bromley residents wish to access Canary Wherf? Not many more than need to get from Hayes or Catford Bridge direct to Cannon Street during the same hours, I'd suggest. The City of London will probably see the loss of thousands, of jobs during the next decade, post=Brexit. The first thousand or so have already been announced, though most haven't happened yet. I'm sure Canary Wharf will see a downturn too, though maybe not to the same extent.

 

[Bucephalus]

Personally, any kind of link from Lewisham to Bromley sounds the most useful to me. Not just because it'll be in my back yard lol but Lewisham-bromley has no rail link whatsoever, rail or otherwise. As for Hayes, I presume, it's a half-hourly service for a reason?

 

[MikeWh]

Personally, any kind of link from Lewisham to Bromley sounds the most useful to me. Not just because it'll be in my back yard lol but Lewisham-bromley has no rail link whatsoever, rail or otherwise. As for Hayes, I presume, it's a half-hourly service for a reason?

Bromley North to Lewisham with a change at Grove Park is available. As is Bromley South to Lewisham with a short walk between Catford and Catford Bridge.
Hayes has 4 trains an hour except on Sundays.

 

[Bucephalus]

@MikeWh
Whoops, I forgot about Bromley North and Catford via the Thameslink. I guess I'd like a link that's quicker than bus. And I didn't know that about hayes