Bakerloo Line extension to Watford Junction.

[swt class 450]

Does anyone know what is happening with the plans to extend the Bakerloo Line to Watford Junction? Is this still going ahead? I havent heard that much about this recently. It appears to be a very easy and simple project with very little work required. The fourth rail track layout seems to extend all the way from Harrow & Wealdstone to Watford Junction. The platforms seem long enough at all of the stations between Harrow & Wealdstone and Watford Junction. Is there any other work that would be required?

 

[rebmcr]

Does anyone know what is happening with the plans to extend the Bakerloo Line to Watford Junction? Is this still going ahead? I havent heard that much about this recently. It appears to be a very easy and simple project with very little work required. The fourth rail track layout seems to extend all the way from Harrow & Wealdstone to Watford Junction. The platforms seem long enough at all of the stations between Harrow & Wealdstone and Watford Junction. Is there any other work that would be required?

The Bakerloo has served Watford Junction in the past, but was cut back with Overground providing the service on the northerly portion of the Watford DC lines. I was unaware of any plans to undo that decision -- do you have any details of what originally informed you about that?

 

[swt class 450]

The Bakerloo has served Watford Junction in the past, but was cut back with Overground providing the service on the northerly portion of the Watford DC lines. I was unaware of any plans to undo that decision -- do you have any details of what originally informed you about that?

I cant remember exactly where i heard it but i think a few years ago either the DFT or TFL were saying something about extending the Bakerloo Line to Watford Junction and revising the London Overground service as a Stratford to Queens Park (or possibly to Willesden Junction) service using the Primrose Hill tunnel.

 

[matt_world2004]

The bakerloo line will run to wfj when the NTfL is introduced on the bakerloo line

 

[sk688]

Will there be the space , though at Watford ?

I know they plan to rebuild it , but in a few years it will have Met Line , LO 710s , and if the above is correct , Bakerloo line trains too

Given the platforms between Harrow and Watford , it would probably take an Olympic Level High Jump to get out of the 1972 stock carriages onto the platforms

 

[Busaholic]

I don't know what the 'need' is for the Bakerloo to regain Watford Junction; all I know is the overwhelming 'need' to extend it from Elephant into the tubeless lands of S.E. London, which I am sure Sadiq Khan would announce if he was able to secure the necessary funding.

 

[swt class 450]

Watford Junction already has four terminus platforms for the DC lines so it should be enough. If neccesary they could also fairly easily reinstate the track at Platform 5 so they would have five platforms to use.

 

[Nym]

The need will probably come from there not being any space to store any more trains within the existing network, nor is there likely to be space for any trains anywhere near the extension near Lewisham.

However, there is space near Watford for more stabling...?

Also would enable access via the met to a common NTfL heavy works depot somewhere on the Central / Picc at say, Ruislip?

All you'd need is a signalling system that works on all lines... Oh, hang on!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know what the 'need' is for the Bakerloo to regain Watford Junction; all I know is the overwhelming 'need' to extend it from Elephant into the tubeless lands of S.E. London, which I am sure Sadiq Khan would announce if he was able to secure the necessary funding.

He did, didn't he? Wasn't it on the news today?

AIUI, the plan for Watford was to cut LO back to Harrow and run the Bakerloo to Watford instead, wasn't it? That is, basically swap the two over?

 

[TrenHotel]

Bakerloo Line to Watford Junction was in one of Ken Livingstone's London Plans around the time of the switchover from Silverlink to London Overground, but was put "on hold indefinitely" by 2011. (page 23: http://www.croxleyraillink.com/media/30037/croxley rail link value for money annex.pdf)

Meanwhile, Bakerloo Line to Lewisham (but no further) has been nudged forward to 2028/29 in TfL's new Business Plan: http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/9020


Here is a 2007 map of how the network could have looked in 2025 which shows both Bakerloo and Overground to Watford Junction, along with the canned Cross-River Tram, Dagenham Dock DLR, Greenwich Waterfront Transit and other schemes.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w8/Albbie94/tubemap2025withsouthernextension.jpg

 

[matt_world2004]

I don't know what the 'need' is for the Bakerloo to regain Watford Junction; all I know is the overwhelming 'need' to extend it from Elephant into the tubeless lands of S.E. London, which I am sure Sadiq Khan would announce if he was able to secure the necessary funding.

I believe the plan was to run the bakerloo to watford junction and use the overground rolling stock elsewhere.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Sorry but what is NTfl?

 

[Nym]

Sorry but what is NTfl?

New Tube for London, formally Deep Tube Programme (DTP)

 

[Busaholic]

Bakerloo Line to Watford Junction was in one of Ken Livingstone's London Plans around the time of the switchover from Silverlink to London Overground, but was put "on hold indefinitely" by 2011. (page 23: http://www.croxleyraillink.com/media/30037/croxley rail link value for money annex.pdf)

Meanwhile, Bakerloo Line to Lewisham (but no further) has been nudged forward to 2028/29 in TfL's new Business Plan: http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/9020


Here is a 2007 map of how the network could have looked in 2025 which shows both Bakerloo and Overground to Watford Junction, along with the canned Cross-River Tram, Dagenham Dock DLR, Greenwich Waterfront Transit and other schemes.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w8/Albbie94/tubemap2025withsouthernextension.jpg

The reality for TfL is that huge savings have to be made from their budget over the next few years. A developer's contribution of a comparatively small amount towards a Lewisham extension is not enough to secure it for 2028, 2029, 2030 or any other year in the future. By the way, how many platforms would be needed for a Lewisham terminus? Lewisham is hardly how Stratford was and doesn't have acres of derelict space - there's also the very real problem of potential flooding, which has occurred bigtime in the past and has only been partly alleviated (I've personal experience!)

 

[edwin_m]

Lewisham could be a two-platform underground terminus with turnback sidings beyond just like Elephant. Or if more turnback capacity was needed, keep the TBM going to make a balloon loop.

 

[Trog]

Does anyone know what is happening with the plans to extend the Bakerloo Line to Watford Junction? Is this still going ahead? I havent heard that much about this recently. It appears to be a very easy and simple project with very little work required. The fourth rail track layout seems to extend all the way from Harrow & Wealdstone to Watford Junction. The platforms seem long enough at all of the stations between Harrow & Wealdstone and Watford Junction. Is there any other work that would be required?

Renew the 4th rail all the way from Harrow to Watford. As the existing 4th rail is up to 100 years old, knackered by mistreatment since it ceased to be physically used or often both.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Given the platforms between Harrow and Watford , it would probably take an Olympic Level High Jump to get out of the 1972 stock carriages onto the platforms

Said platforms are built to a compromise height so a school sports day athlete can step down into the Bakerloo stock or step up into the mainline stock. Or vice-versa when alighting. The only exception my be Bushey and Oxhey in the Up direction where I seem to remember the cant was changed to reduce the step up into the trains.

 

[philthetube]

Watford Junction already has four terminus platforms for the DC lines so it should be enough. If neccesary they could also fairly easily reinstate the track at Platform 5 so they would have five platforms to use.

2 of these are to be used for the met when that goes in.

 

[edwin_m]

Is there any need for extra trains on the DC lines or would the Bakerloo effectively replace the Overground as someone suggested was the previous plan? If so then there would be no capacity problem at Watford Junction and only platform height conflicts would be Watford High Street with the Met, and south of Harrow or wherever the Overground terminated.

Providing a Bakerloo line service and diverting the Overground onto the North London Line would potentially allow the removal of the DC service from Euston and free up capacity during the reconstruction. This would require either the re-opening of the Primrose Hill line to passengers, or closure of Kilburn High Road (near Kilburn Park on the Bakerloo) and South Hampstead (near Swiss Cottage on the Jubilee).

 

[Busaholic]

Lewisham could be a two-platform underground terminus with turnback sidings beyond just like Elephant. Or if more turnback capacity was needed, keep the TBM going to make a balloon loop.

If the intention was to leave Lewisham as the terminus for the foreseeable future, indeed that could be the case, but I understood the intention was that Lewisham would only be an interim solution, in which case the positioning of terminal platforms could be crucial in determining which SE Rail line/s got taken over, assuming this to be much more likely than any new build of more than a few hundred metres at most. TfL should remember the lesson of Walthamstow Central, where a lack of forward thinking meant any extension that might be considered for the future (Whipps Cross being the most obvious) were stymied.

 

[Nym]

Lewisham on it's own also has the same issue as the Victoria Line, amplified.

There would be no depot at the south end of the line, as NTfL is not likely to fit into London Road. Nice long waits for the northbound services in a morning from Lewisham waiting for trains to come down from Queens Park, Stonebridge Park and any other depots...?

If Lewisham is to be the terminus, the only real solution would be a significant number of underground blind sidings to stable trains at that end.

Unless you want to pave over Blackheath for a depot?

Only other location is around 2.5 miles away at Northbrook. If that where to be used, it would be very wise to have three or four platforms underground at Lewisham so that an extention is possible in other directions with a long spur to the new depot. It also provides a much more sensible location from which to launch one's TBMs.

 

[Lrd]

So why won't NTfL fit at London Road depot?

 

[Nym]

So why won't NTfL fit at London Road depot?

1972TS barely fits, and it's layout is hardly useful for a service catapult to run services from Lewisham, it points in the wrong direction and only has single road access.

 

[swt class 450]

So is this NTFL trains going to be longer than the 1972 stock trains? If so wont that mean lots of platforms will have to be extended (which will be very hard to do at stations that are underground)?

 

[J-2739]

so is this ntfl trains going to be longer than the 1972 stock trains? If so wont that mean lots of platforms will have to be extended (which will be very hard to do at stations that are underground)?

sdo.?

 

[swt class 450]

sdo.?

Yes that is probably quite likely. I believe that 1995 stock and S stock already use SDO at quite a few stations.

 

[Nym]

Yes that is probably quite likely. I believe that 1995 stock and S stock already use SDO at quite a few stations.

A Stock, C Stock and D Stock all have / had SDO...

It's not exactly new for LUL.

 

[edwin_m]

SDO won't help if the depot is too small!

Another possibility is overnight stabling in secure underground stations of enough units to form the first few morning departures until trains start feeding through from the other end of the line. I don't know if this happens yet but it was certainly looked into at least once. It requires a bit of operating discipline and co-ordination with the fleet maintenance people to make sure the last few trains at night (that out-stable) are OK to be the first few in the morning. It is also necessary to have a plan B (C, D, E etc) to cope when engineering access is needed to or through one of the stations used for stabling.

 

[Busaholic]

Lewisham on it's own also has the same issue as the Victoria Line, amplified.

There would be no depot at the south end of the line, as NTfL is not likely to fit into London Road. Nice long waits for the northbound services in a morning from Lewisham waiting for trains to come down from Queens Park, Stonebridge Park and any other depots...?

If Lewisham is to be the terminus, the only real solution would be a significant number of underground blind sidings to stable trains at that end.

Unless you want to pave over Blackheath for a depot?

Only other location is around 2.5 miles away at Northbrook. If that where to be used, it would be very wise to have three or four platforms underground at Lewisham so that an extention is possible in other directions with a long spur to the new depot. It also provides a much more sensible location from which to launch one's TBMs.

Very interesting. Too many years since Lewisham was my home (two of them, in fact, at different times) and very near my school too. I really don't believe the intention to terminate at Lewisham has been thought through, though, in the rush to get the extension started from the Elephant, but the refusal to commit to a route, or routes, beyond Lewisham. Dumping so many passengers in Lewisham in the evening peak whose final destination is not within walking distance of the station is not a good idea. Unlike Brixton or Walthamstow Central, for instance, there is not a great bus service, in fact there are far fewer buses than when I left the area in 1988, which is not true of too many parts of London. I also repeat that I think the chances of flooding are not negligible. There may not have been the major flood that occurred in 1968, but I kept a lot of furniture in storage in a facility you could see from the platforms of Lewisham Station for a few years after 1988 and they were ruined in a flood in the early 1990s that received little media attention. My old family house in Bromley was also badly affected by a flood from the River Ravensbourne, normally a stream that ran along the end of the back garden, and this is one of the rivers that meet in Lewisham only yards from the station.

P.S. The Blackheath Society is probably as influential as the Hampstead Society, so that's a non-runner.

 

[swt class 450]

At the moment would a Bakerloo Line 1972 stock train be able to continue to Watford Junction (or has it ever happened recently)? Is the fourth rail still actually working?

 

[matt_world2004]

Will there be the space , though at Watford ?

I know they plan to rebuild it , but in a few years it will have Met Line , LO 710s , and if the above is correct , Bakerloo line trains too

Given the platforms between Harrow and Watford , it would probably take an Olympic Level High Jump to get out of the 1972 stock carriages onto the platforms

If they introduce the bakerloo line to watford at the same time as cutting back the London Overground service the platforms could be reduced in height to match the Bakerloo Lines train size.