Bakerloo line re-extension to Watford Junction: why not now?

[Belperpete]

given many people will prefer a direct train into central london, rather than changing at Euston (for Northern/Victoria line) ot Wembley (for Bakerloo) at present.

No doubt most people would prefer a direct train from their local station to wherever they happen to want to go that day, but the reality of public transport is that it is a compromise. For most journeys at least one change will be necessary, and a simple same-platform change is not much of an inconvenience (compared to the long subterranean treks involved in changing between some of the tube lines, for example).

Just because there was once a few Bakerloo trains a day to and from Watford does not mean there is any realistic justification for bringing them back, any more than some of the wondrous routes that Met and District trains once ran.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Just because there was once a few Bakerloo trains a day to and from Watford does not mean there is any realistic justification for bringing them back, any more than some of the wondrous routes that Met and District trains once ran.

I agree - there really is not that much call for London on a very slow , tedious stopping service with (present stock) quite a lively ride despite the well padded seats. The DC line has seen a massive transformation from the days when you had 2 routes to long gone Broad St (via the city loop or Primrose Hill) , plus the Euston service , plus the Bakerloo.

I any case . even if you had enough tube stock (which you have not) , the extra "car mileage" increases operational costs , plus the not modest costs of resignaling the DC north of Harrow and no doubt some platfrom works to deal with platfrom works for longer trains. Unless the DC northern bits have changed since my days , crowding on that sections was not normally an issue.

I like the term "wondrous routes" as quoted above, -

 

[NorthKent1989]

I know re-extending the Bakerloo up to Watford Junction was proposed in the 2000s under Livingstone with the intention of the line being extended to Hayes by 2026…

But this was before the Overground came into fruition, in the years between the abolishing of NSE and the opening of the Overground the North London lines were very tired looking, this included to Watford line.

The Watford re-extension would have seen the Silverlink line cut back to Queens Park then diverted to Stratford away from Euston.

But nowadays the Overground has grown in popularity, superseding the Bakerloo entirely.

Personally i think the Bakerloo should be withdrawn north of Stonebridge Park upon the completion of the extension to Lewisham, and leave points north of Stonebridge Park to the Overground

 

[stuu]

Yes, i do acknowledge that. That point was aimed at the stations not served by LNWR trains, so Carpenders Park, Headstone Lane, Hatch End and Watford High Street. For those stations, the Bakerloo line may get used, given many people will prefer a direct train into central london, rather than changing at Euston (for Northern/Victoria line) ot Wembley (for Bakerloo) at present.

If they don't change to the LNW service at Harrow, then staying on the Overground as far as Queens Park makes for a much more comfortable journey, and a couple of minutes wait at most

 

[87015]

Personally i think the Bakerloo should be withdrawn north of Stonebridge Park upon the completion of the extension to Lewisham, and leave points north of Stonebridge Park to the Overground

That would decimate the service on the busiest section for loadings though, which is Willesden-Harrow. You'll have loads of largely empty Stonebridge terminators north of Queens Park and crush loaded Watfords.

 

[biggerisbetter]

If money were no, or at least less of an object, which I appreciate obviously isn't the case, I would as part of wider HS2 and Old Oak Common works:

- 4-track between Camden Road East Junction and Camden Road West Junction and extend East London / Windrush Line services from Highbury and Islington to terminate at Queens Park.
- Remove Overground services from Euston.
- Improve and start to use West Coast Mainline platforms at Queens Park.
- Extend Bakerloo line south to Hayes and Beckenham Junction via Lewisham.
- Extend Bakerloo line north to Watford Junction.
- Potentially (although this is the most fantastical element) add a Bakerloo line spur from Queens Park to terminating platforms at North Action calling at Old Oak East (Overground Mildmay Line Clapham Junction Route platforms); Old Oak Central (HS2, GWML, Chiltern and Crossrail services); Old Oak West (Overground Mildmay Line Richmond Route platforms) and North Acton (Central Line interchange).
- Run a Bakerloo service something like 10tph Watford Junction to Hayes, 10tph Harrow and Wealdstone to Beckenham Junction and 10tph North Action to Lewisham.

 

[D365]

The site of Tesco at Elmers End looks like it could probably accommodate a depot with the supermarket rebuilt on top?

Is there not a proposal to provide a new depot / stabling site as part of the underground extension to Lewisham? Or is that only a replacement for London Road.

 

[JonathanH]

Is there not a proposal to provide a new depot / stabling site as part of the underground extension to Lewisham? Or is that only a replacement for London Road.

There appears to be a proposal for a depot on land currently used by Lewisham Council south of the point the Lewisham to Ladywell line goes beneath the London Bridge to Orpington line.

 

[cle]

Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. Would that work be part of a first phase to Lewisham, inc the portal up out?

Or only contingent on taking over Hayes in future?

 

[JonathanH]

Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. Would that work be part of a first phase to Lewisham, inc the portal up out?

Or only contingent on taking over Hayes in future?

The 2020 report, on the 2019 consultation suggests that that is where the portal would be and the stabling point even if it only went to Lewisham.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/ble-2019-rtir-report.pdf

We have proposed a stabling facility at Wearside Road Council depot in a
basement level structure below the existing ground level and below the level of
the existing Network Rail lines. This would allow us to access the tunnels via a
head house built on the surface, provide stabling, potentially reverse trains and
remove the tunnel boring machines. This would also allow us to potentially further
extend beyond Lewisham on the Hayes branch of the National Rail network.

Although we are at early stages of design, we would expect there to be little
impact on residents close to the site during operations. Typical train stabling
comprises of tracks (known as roads) where trains are stored whilst empty. Whilst
stored, the trains may be cleaned inside. As part of permission to build and
operate the railway through a Transport & Works Act Order, we would produce an
Environmental Statement describing any likely effects (such as noise and
vibration) on nearby residents and businesses and how we would take steps to
reduce any disruption.

Our designs are currently at an early stage and we will use comments from this
consultation and further information from our discussions with stakeholders
(including Lewisham Council) to develop our proposals. This includes discussions
about future use at ground level (besides the head house) on the site.

The consultation feedback we have received has supported our proposed use of
the Wearside Road Council depot, and this will guide us as we continue to
develop our proposals.

As part of the proposed extension we are looking at stabling capacity across the
whole of the Bakerloo line, which includes the existing depots at Stonebridge Park
and Queens Park in north London and London Road near Lambeth North. We are
also looking at how we could use the existing tunnels between Lambeth North and
Elephant & Castle to stable trains once a new alignment is provided as part of the
extension. Our preliminary work shows that along with the four locations
discussed above, Wearside Road Council depot as proposed would provide
sufficient additional capacity for the Bakerloo line if extended to Lewisham only.
Should our proposals change then these would be subject to further consultation.

 

[cle]

Interesting, thanks. That surely a big part of the civils covered for Hayes. Will need room for a few more trains!

 

[waverley47]

The 2020 report, on the 2019 consultation suggests that that is where the portal would be and the stabling point even if it only went to Lewisham.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/ble-2019-rtir-report.pdf

While we are on the topic, buried in that planning document is the intention to launch TBMs and extract spoil from somewhere in the vicinity of New Cross Gate, with materials presumably coming out and in by rail.

Given the very constrained nature of the layout at New Cross Gate, and the very obvious need to avoid demolishing either the Overground depot or the NR control room, does anyone know where exactly these sidings would be?

The tunnel diameter would be smaller than the HS2 or Crossrail tunnels, but using them as a guide, that's still a train of tunnel segments in, and at least one train of spoil our per day, needing at least two sidings. The sidings would also undoubtedly face the 'wrong way' meaning trains would have to cross the main line on the flat in at least one direction, and trains would face a very congested set of moves to Wembley Yard via a magical mystery tour of South London.

 

[greatkingrat]

The site would be the retail park immediately west of the station.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Personally i think the Bakerloo should be withdrawn north of Stonebridge Park upon the completion of the extension to Lewisham, and leave points north of Stonebridge Park to the Overground

That would be a terrible idea because Stonebridge Park doesn't offer as good onward travel links. At present, you have many LNWR trains to places like Tring and as far as Milton Keynes which stop at Harrow & W, but not earlier stops on the Bakerloo. Therefore, without LNWR calls at Wembley Central (another station with operational mainline platforms, although not used by LNWR trains), that would significantly worsen access to the Bakerloo line from many stations north of Watford, and would make it more awkward to access as passengers would need to get on the overground for a few stations just to reach the Bakerloo (which could be either from H&W down to Stonebridge, or double-back through Euston to Queens Park), which would needlessly add a few minutes to journey times.

On top of that, even if many stations between Stonebridge Park and Harrow & Wealdstone aren't particularly well used, losing direct access deep into Central London (as Euston is basically at the edge of Central London) could discourage people from using those stations, and just use alternative stations instead, given the only service would be a slow service to the edge of Central London