Surely that's how things should be ? I'd rather live in a country where people minding their own business were left to mind their own business.
That's how it should be. The banning stuffs the country gone wrong.
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Ban on alcohol on Scotrail between 9PM and 10AM
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Surely that's how things should be ? I'd rather live in a country where people minding their own business were left to mind their own business.
That's how it should be. The banning stuffs the country gone wrong.
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RailUK Forums
It should be. But someone got a bee in their bonnet about it and banned it. People dont like to think about the wider issues when they do things like this.
I get the 2105 from Aberdeen to Edinburgh on a Friday night and the 2100 from Edinburgh to Aberdeen on a Sunday night relatively often and a couple cans whilst listening, at an appropriate volume of course, to some music helps the journey pass that little bit quicker.
Disappointing that I'll have to find another operator to travel on if I fancy a couple drinks on the train late/early but not disappointing enough to make me change the train I'll get just so I can have a drink.
The comments from Ch Supt Ellie Bird seem to imply that BTP in Scotland want to ban alcohol consumption on trains completely.
Disappointing that I'll have to find another operator to travel on if I fancy a couple drinks on the train late/early but not disappointing enough to make me change the train I'll get just so I can have a drink.
The comments from Ch Supt Ellie Bird seem to imply that BTP in Scotland want to ban alcohol consumption on trains completely.
313103
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Isnt this the type of ban introduced by TfL? This is often causes problems because the line between Shepherds Bush and Clapham Junction is shared between Southern and London Overground, yet you can drink alcohol on the Southern but not the LO!
We have recently had a member of staff physically assaulted because he told a group of lads that drinking isnt permitted.
In all honesty it cannot be policed, the Conductor can tell a member of the public to stop drinking and then risk creating a conflict situation. It has often been the case that eeven the police dont enforse the the drinking ban, i have seen where police have seen someone drinking and said nothing and let them carry on. If that is the case i am not going out of my way to stop someone from drinking although i have done in the past.
We have recently had a member of staff physically assaulted because he told a group of lads that drinking isnt permitted.
In all honesty it cannot be policed, the Conductor can tell a member of the public to stop drinking and then risk creating a conflict situation. It has often been the case that eeven the police dont enforse the the drinking ban, i have seen where police have seen someone drinking and said nothing and let them carry on. If that is the case i am not going out of my way to stop someone from drinking although i have done in the past.
scotsman
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Interesting to see some stereotypes surfacing...not saying that you won't see them up here, merely that they're not exclusive or as prevalent as implied
The discussion about early morning drinking after a night shift is an interesting one. Personally, I do anything to avoid someone sitting swilling from a can any time of day (can't stand the smell), but the railway companies would do well do remember they are fundamentally a public transport network, and can't just pick and choose the people they want.
ian959
Member
If drinking on a train is such an issue, why pick arbitrary times during which it is banned? Just make the consumption and sale of alcohol on Scotrail services banned, end of.
But this sort of ban does have ramifications. Public transport is there so that amongst other things the public have transport to use when they have indulged and are in no fit condition to drive themselves.
Perhaps Scotrail intend to fit breathalysers to the door controls so that before you can open the door to get on the train you have to blow below the legal limit?
At the end of the day, its unenforceable.
But this sort of ban does have ramifications. Public transport is there so that amongst other things the public have transport to use when they have indulged and are in no fit condition to drive themselves.
Perhaps Scotrail intend to fit breathalysers to the door controls so that before you can open the door to get on the train you have to blow below the legal limit?
At the end of the day, its unenforceable.
I noticed a quote from her which said that drinking wasn't allowed on buses, so trains shouldn't be any different. However she forgets that buses don't sell alcohol normally, but many train services do...
I don't really have very strong feelings one way or the other about this but I can't help but feel it will reduce the number of services that Scotrail offer catering on.
I was told by a Southern manager recently that the only reason that trolleys are viable is the sale of alcohol in the evening peak and to day trippers to the coast.
Maybe thats reflected in the hours proposed for Scotland?
Im glad to see the sleepers exempt though i can't see the lounge cars being viable dry and the social at the beginning of walking holidays to the west highlands (passing through places like milton keynes at speed) is one of the key reasons that I use rail.
Without them I think Easyjet to Inverness might just have the advantage.
I was told by a Southern manager recently that the only reason that trolleys are viable is the sale of alcohol in the evening peak and to day trippers to the coast.
Maybe thats reflected in the hours proposed for Scotland?
Im glad to see the sleepers exempt though i can't see the lounge cars being viable dry and the social at the beginning of walking holidays to the west highlands (passing through places like milton keynes at speed) is one of the key reasons that I use rail.
Without them I think Easyjet to Inverness might just have the advantage.
Neither are bar staff or bouncers or police, but they are all allowed to judge if people are drunk.
Anyway, the ban is on drinking on the train, not on being drunk. It strikes me that it might be a way of giving guards an extra tool if they need to remove a group of people.
Likewise, although we did once or twice on a friday on the way home from work set a table on a 158! Disposable tablecloth, couple of premixed vodka cans into plastic cups, and a selection of nibbles. Made for a good (and amusing) start to the weekend!
Only a 20 minute journey! All folded up in the cloth and gone when we alighted!
Failed Unit
Established Member
No train in Scotland have trollies after 2000 so on train sales won't be a problem. Edinburgh and Glasgow have pubs in the station however
.
Howardh
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True.
If someone is on a train, drinking heavily and being a nuicence, they are committing an offence under current legislation. If they can't/won't be dealt with (thrown off, arrested, whatever) already, what's the point of throwing in yet another pointless *law*? The hard core nutters won't be approached and dealt with; but the bloke with the briefcase coming home from work having a relaxing tinnie is sure as dammit gonna feel the full force of the law.
There are days when I wish I were a drunken skinhead hoodie full of tattoos and objectionable language, that way I'd be left in peace. Oh, and get free journeys too.
PaxVobiscum
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This totally confused me until I realised that 2000 was a time not a year!
michael769
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I'd be inclined to argue the definition of "sealed", then. Does it mean "sealed" as in "the closed condition of the vessel as purchased" (try saying that when drunk
I presume it will be defined in similar terms to that used with the public alcohol ban in Glasgow - sealed in the sense that it is in its original container as sold which has not been opened.
In any case Scotrail have said publicly that they will not be searching passengers bags and cases (and indeed they have no lawful powers to do so) for alcohol - so in practice if the staff cannot see it - there is no problem.
In reality I feel sorry for the staff whose managers will not doubt expect them to put themselves at risk (of abuse if nothing else) to enforce this with absolutely no support whatsoever from BTP or territorial plod (oh yes there will be some high visibility policing for the first couple of weeks before they run out of whatever extra cash the government has given them for overtime - but after that staff will be left high and dry). If Scotrail's execs and really believe that the police will be anywhere near somewhere like Carfin when a guard tries to stop the local worthies getting on with their buckfast in a irn bru bottle then they have clearly been promoted well above their abilities.
Scotrail84
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True.
There are days when I wish I were a drunken skinhead hoodie full of tattoos and objectionable language, that way I'd be left in peace. Oh, and get free journeys too.
Complete rubbish. Nothing like stereotyping eh. So it's only skinhead tattooed hoodies that behave like this?what a very shallow opinion, come into the real world mate.
Scotrail84
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No train in Scotland have trollies after 2000 so on train sales won't be a problem. Edinburgh and Glasgow have pubs in the station however
Indeed but they are too expensive to drink in
sprinterguy
Established Member
The Wetherspoons on Queen Street is very reasonably priced! Although the licensing laws in that one seem to be stricter than its' English equivalents anyway.Indeed but they are too expensive to drink in
Scotrail84
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A wetherspoons in Qst station??
Failed Unit
Established Member
Sainsbury for a carry out. Wether spoons is within staggering distance but never tried the pub in the station to be honest. Wouldn't make a spy as it is the only shop in the station I don't know the name of. Why!
Scotrail84
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Sainsbury for a carry out. Wether spoons is within staggering distance but never tried the pub in the station to be honest. Wouldn't make a spy as it is the only shop in the station I don't know the name of. Why!
There will be nae carry oot fae sainsburys after this ban comes in. I see the the pub in qst several times a week, cannot tell you what it's called I'm never in it, just jealous of the people that are
motherwell334
Member
Hi Guys,
Being a ticket examiner i will NOT be enforcing this unless i have the BTP to back me up. Now any other TE's or Guards on here may confirm,but there has been many an night where ive been on a late train and the BTP have physically helped a drunk onto the service then turn round to me and say "make sure they get off at their stop"
The unions must have known about this bill being passed, Scotrail,the police and other governing bodies held the meeting yesterday and i was told by a manager 5pm
Being a ticket examiner i will NOT be enforcing this unless i have the BTP to back me up. Now any other TE's or Guards on here may confirm,but there has been many an night where ive been on a late train and the BTP have physically helped a drunk onto the service then turn round to me and say "make sure they get off at their stop"
The unions must have known about this bill being passed, Scotrail,the police and other governing bodies held the meeting yesterday and i was told by a manager 5pm
Firstly, I welcome this, lots! I think Scotland does have a problem with alcohol fuelled behaviour and sadly (from my viewpoint given where I live) many of Glasgow's suburban services suffer from issues with drunks on trains.
However, I can see this new rule lasting all of two weeks (if we're lucky) before being forgotten about. Mainly because ScotRail will essentially need to have police stationed at the ticket barriers at major stations to stop drunks getting through (which, I can see as being the only practical way of stopping them), and drunk people will get on no problem at non-barrier stations anyway.
As for TE's and Guards enforcing the rule... ha! This will never happen, for the following reasons:
- It's entirely unreasonable to expect a single TE or Guard to ask, say, a bunch of neds (and let's be honest, these are exactly the folk this rule is aimed at) to get off a train. Being entirely realistic, in Glasgow, these people are probably carrying knives, and I wouldn't want to see any rail staff in that kind of position.
- I know for a fact TE's and Guards on at least one ScotRail route are 'encouraged' by management to behave in such a way that a train does not get delayed (an example I was once told by a TE was that they were informed that if they were assualted, they would leave the train at the next stop to contact the police, and the train should continue along it's route minus a TE - on time).
- ScotRail launched a 'Buy Before you Board' policy that TE's were to enforce that if you didn't buy at the station (where ticket issuing facilities were available) before boarding, you'd be charged a full single fare for the journey. This was a few years ago, and I've seen this rule enforced once. Ever. And I make around 12-15 ScotRail journeys per week, every week. .
- The times are good and target the problem times, but twice in the last month I've been coming home from work on a rush hour train with drunk neds on it. I could see some passengers looked quite worried by them, and surely these rules need to target problems like this too.
AND... my final reason for why I doubt this'll work, and frankly which is what annoys me about the whole alcohol fuelled trouble in Scotland situation at all....
- The root of these problems is drunk people causing nuisance/danger to other passengers, staff and the train. I do believe, we already have a law covering this?! It's called being drunk and disorderly - and (warning: right wing-esque rant ahead) it's just not enforced enough. We don't need new rules, really, if someone is potentially a danger to others or is causing a lot of nuisance - the police should be called and they should spend the weekend in the cells.
Also to comment on the following quote:
I'd like to support your comments! I don't think you should be enforcing this without police support (or SIA trained security, who are trained to physically remove someone from premises). I worry for the safety of staff with this.
Also with regards to your comment on the BTP, that is shocking! I think their resources are spread quite thinly however, and I suspect staff may be pressured not to contact them? I once asked a TE to contact BTP due to the fact that a drunk man, boasting about being released from prison earlier in the week, was threatening me - and they refused.
Anyway. I've ranted a lot on this. I do welcome the decision, perhaps having this rule in place will make things a little better.
And I shall end on this lighter note: when are we getting alcohol fuelled trains so we can use less diesel? Discuss
However, I can see this new rule lasting all of two weeks (if we're lucky) before being forgotten about. Mainly because ScotRail will essentially need to have police stationed at the ticket barriers at major stations to stop drunks getting through (which, I can see as being the only practical way of stopping them), and drunk people will get on no problem at non-barrier stations anyway.
As for TE's and Guards enforcing the rule... ha! This will never happen, for the following reasons:
- It's entirely unreasonable to expect a single TE or Guard to ask, say, a bunch of neds (and let's be honest, these are exactly the folk this rule is aimed at) to get off a train. Being entirely realistic, in Glasgow, these people are probably carrying knives, and I wouldn't want to see any rail staff in that kind of position.
- I know for a fact TE's and Guards on at least one ScotRail route are 'encouraged' by management to behave in such a way that a train does not get delayed (an example I was once told by a TE was that they were informed that if they were assualted, they would leave the train at the next stop to contact the police, and the train should continue along it's route minus a TE - on time).
- ScotRail launched a 'Buy Before you Board' policy that TE's were to enforce that if you didn't buy at the station (where ticket issuing facilities were available) before boarding, you'd be charged a full single fare for the journey. This was a few years ago, and I've seen this rule enforced once. Ever. And I make around 12-15 ScotRail journeys per week, every week. .
- The times are good and target the problem times, but twice in the last month I've been coming home from work on a rush hour train with drunk neds on it. I could see some passengers looked quite worried by them, and surely these rules need to target problems like this too.
AND... my final reason for why I doubt this'll work, and frankly which is what annoys me about the whole alcohol fuelled trouble in Scotland situation at all....
- The root of these problems is drunk people causing nuisance/danger to other passengers, staff and the train. I do believe, we already have a law covering this?! It's called being drunk and disorderly - and (warning: right wing-esque rant ahead) it's just not enforced enough. We don't need new rules, really, if someone is potentially a danger to others or is causing a lot of nuisance - the police should be called and they should spend the weekend in the cells.
Also to comment on the following quote:
I'd like to support your comments! I don't think you should be enforcing this without police support (or SIA trained security, who are trained to physically remove someone from premises). I worry for the safety of staff with this.
Also with regards to your comment on the BTP, that is shocking! I think their resources are spread quite thinly however, and I suspect staff may be pressured not to contact them? I once asked a TE to contact BTP due to the fact that a drunk man, boasting about being released from prison earlier in the week, was threatening me - and they refused.
Anyway. I've ranted a lot on this. I do welcome the decision, perhaps having this rule in place will make things a little better.
And I shall end on this lighter note: when are we getting alcohol fuelled trains so we can use less diesel? Discuss
And I shall end on this lighter note: when are we getting alcohol fuelled trains so we can use less diesel? Discuss
About the same time that a certain species of curly-tailed farm animals grows wings!!!
merlodlliw
Established Member
Back to Wales, Weatherspoons is built into Aberyswyth station,breakfast and a pint from 0800 every day before you catch the rattler.
I fancied a full breakfast for an amazing £1.99 at Wrexhams spoons Yale pub,it was 0730, but the place was full of bacon & beer, so I declined & walked to Tessa Cohens for an exorbitant £3 full Welsh
Blindtraveler
Established Member
For me, 2 words does it - Oh Dear!
21:00 is way too early esp on a longer run say up the HML or far north where the pub may well be shut by the time you get there, meaning responsible consumers like myself are once again hit.
Iether make it reasonable I.E 22:30, make it a total ban on all services all the time or just dont do it at all. As ever I support rail staff in there concerns. If it comes to enforcement a total ban would be far easier
21:00 is way too early esp on a longer run say up the HML or far north where the pub may well be shut by the time you get there, meaning responsible consumers like myself are once again hit.
Iether make it reasonable I.E 22:30, make it a total ban on all services all the time or just dont do it at all. As ever I support rail staff in there concerns. If it comes to enforcement a total ban would be far easier
Failed Unit
Established Member
After a trip on the 2330 last night, no one was actually drinking on board. Lots had already consumed a lot myself included. Some people were loud but no trouble. It was 2x 170s so the front 3 had no staff to enforce it anyway and the barriers are open a Haymarket. Maybe transport Scotland need to think again.
lyesbkz
Member
Summary for skim-readers:
If the point of the ban is to reduce anti-social behaviour then why not just target the anti-social behaviour itself?
What's the point in banning alcohol on trains?
Considering there is no change to the logistics, and the staff onboard the service will still be the ones left to deal with any problem in the same way, then it would make more sense to just reinforce the idea of not tolerating anti-social behaviour.
This way the people drinking quietly after work can continue to relax and those kicking up problems can be dealt with (or not dealt with) in the same way that they expect people with alcohol to be dealt with under this ban.
If, as it stands, the staff cannot safely deal with a bunch of people drinking and kicking up a fuss, then how can they be expected to deal with exactly the same situation but pretending that it's the drinking that's the issue, not they way they're behaving.
Indeed all this ban serves to do is hurt those who would be drinking in peace and minding their own business.
If the point of the ban is to reduce anti-social behaviour then why not just target the anti-social behaviour itself?
What's the point in banning alcohol on trains?
Considering there is no change to the logistics, and the staff onboard the service will still be the ones left to deal with any problem in the same way, then it would make more sense to just reinforce the idea of not tolerating anti-social behaviour.
This way the people drinking quietly after work can continue to relax and those kicking up problems can be dealt with (or not dealt with) in the same way that they expect people with alcohol to be dealt with under this ban.
If, as it stands, the staff cannot safely deal with a bunch of people drinking and kicking up a fuss, then how can they be expected to deal with exactly the same situation but pretending that it's the drinking that's the issue, not they way they're behaving.
Indeed all this ban serves to do is hurt those who would be drinking in peace and minding their own business.
Scotrail84
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The 23:30 ex?? Barriers open at 11pm at haymarket. If the scotrail want patrols, revenue etc done on 6 cars then they need to put 2 guards on them.
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