Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson - yet another assistance failure

[Bletchleyite]

What about those staff who do own it yet people self-remove themselves before you have a chance to complete all safety related duties?

Like with evacuations, there are ways of discouraging this by ensuring people are properly informed.

A simple announcement confirming they've not been forgotten as part of the "we are now arriving at place" one might help.

"We are now arriving at London Kings Cross. Passengers I've spoken to requiring assistance in coaches B and F should be aware we have requested this with the station and they are on their way; once I have completed my safety critical duties I will be along to check they have arrived and introduce you to them if they haven't already helped you off the train by the time I reach you".

 

[Towers]

Well, yes, they do, isn't that obvious? Guards can obviously play a role too, but if there's two sets of spaces per train and they're at opposite ends (bad design there) then you need to be able to get two members of assistance staff to each timetabled arrival, yes. And you need enough staff to do that.

If you don't, the company is simply not taking the situation seriously enough and deserve to be sued and prosecuted repeatedly until they do.

Sued and prosecuted because it took a few minutes for the assistance team to collect their first booking before reaching the next?

Ms Grey-Thompson’s experience was a particularly bad case, and it was completely unacceptable. However, the wider context we are discussing here is the far more common occurence of someone having to wait for a few minutes for the assistance team to reach them. Whilst an ideal situation would see everyone met with a smiling face the moment the doors open, I don’t think the reality warrants prosecutions?

 

[Deepgreen]

In all fairness, I read it as Baroness Grey-Thompson implying that the cleaner was happy to help, but she was saying they couldn't as they weren't insured-as opposed to the cleaner (correctly, it's not their fault) refusing to on such grounds.

Yes, so did I, which prompted my comment about insurance in post 30, which was shot down. I don't care if I am insured or not, I would help if I physically could in what is a vanishingly-low risk activity. If my employer chooses to discipline me, so be it (rather than avoiding the negative publicity generated in this case!).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sued and prosecuted because it took a few minutes for the assistance team to collect their first booking before reaching the next?

Sued and prosecuted because the railway is institutionally discriminatory against disabled people and institutionally treats them like a nuisance.

It could do better. It chooses not to because, frankly, it doesn't care. To be fair there's a level of equality there in terms of the way it treats non-disabled people, but for disabled people it's loads worse.

Ms Gray-Thompson’s experience was a particularly bad case, and it was completely unacceptable. However, the wider context we are discussing here is the far more common occurence of someone having to wait for a few minutes for the assistance team to reach them. Whilst an ideal situation would see everyone met with a smiling face the moment the doors open, I don’t think the reality warrants prosecutions?

I've seen enough failures that it does, and prosecutions every time is the only way it's ever going to be fixed.

 

[Towers]

Sadly this is true. A recent & pointless "Ops Standards" bulletin at one company claimed that:-

"The Station Assistance staff at (Network Rail Major Station X) are not trained on the use of ramps for our company's trains. Therefore, traincrew must prepare the ramp as required and if you witness any Network Rail staff attempting this, they must be reported..."

The stock is around 20 years old and has been on that service from the start. NR had been doing assists since the start.

Fed up of making paperclip chains, in 2024 Ops Standards managers did a risk assessment... they represent all that is wrong with our railway. If an insurer is not willing to cover all staff & contractors putting down a wheelchair ramp, sack the insurer and find someone else.

“Insurance” is a bit of a red herring that gets thrown around a lot; similar to bus drivers being told they “aren’t insured” to carry people when out of service etc. The quote you include clearly says “trained”, not “insured”. That is very different, but still easily solved.

 

[skyhigh]

In all fairness, I read it as Baroness Grey-Thompson implying that the cleaner was happy to help, but she was saying they couldn't as they weren't insured-as opposed to the cleaner (correctly, it's not their fault) refusing to on such grounds.

In a previous role I often deployed the ramp. In my current role, despite it being the same stock, ramps and stations I'm no longer permitted to touch the ramp.

If I was permitted I would be more than happy to. It's nothing to do with agreements or unions defining roles, the company has decided I'm not allowed to.

If I used 'basic human empathy' and deployed the ramp, and then was caught doing so (especially if something went wrong) I could be sacked. It's happened before.

Remembering the time when someone thought they'd just put the ramp down as it "couldn't be that hard", they messed up the angle and the wheelchair user tipped backwards and landed on their head requiring a stay in hospital.

The system needs to be changed, but in my opinion berating untrained staff such as cleaners for not doing something they're not trained to do is 'pathetic'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The system needs to be changed, but in my opinion berating untrained staff such as cleaners for not doing something they're not trained to do is 'pathetic'.

Agreed. The issue is institutional, not individual (though there are also some bad individuals).

 

[Deepgreen]

But who’s paying?!

Shareholders. It's part of providing the service required of the TOC.

 

[Howardh]

My first thought which has been covered earlier in the thread, it's at a terminus, why hasn't he guard walked through the train to ensure everyone's off? Clearly the lady was in need of help, no-one there, there could have been pax still in their seats asleep?

Also, she tried to contact them via twitter, but I assume no reply. Why have a twitter account when it's not answered during timetabled hours?? Myself, in that situation, I would have rung 999.

 

[azOOOOOma]

Like with evacuations, there are ways of discouraging this.

A simple announcement confirming they've not been forgotten as part of the "we are now arriving at place" one might help.

"We are now arriving at London Kings Cross. Passengers I've spoken to requiring assistance in coaches B and F should be aware we have requested this with the station and they are on their way; once I have completed my safety critical duties I will be along to check they have arrived and introduce you to them if they haven't already helped you off the train by the time I reach you".

Arrival announcements done. Before arrival they were reassured that their assistance was booked and I’d ensure it had arrived before I left.

I don’t know the assisted travel team. There are dozens of them and I don’t have time to make personal introductions.

You mentioned that two minutes is unacceptable. How do I do my safety related duties, personally introduce the passengers in A to the assisted travel staff member, then walk 1/4 of a km (takes me way more than two minutes) to M, find out the name of the staff, personally introduce the assisted travel passengers to the staff and then let them get on with helping them off.

All this when my return train is late awaiting my arrival, I then do the same process in reverse, walking 1/4 of a km to A then 1/4 of a km back to rear cab for dispatch and I just make the 600 passengers more delayed, more anxious about connections or making it to their work/Taylor Swift concert/hospital appointment?

Laura says NO.

Shareholders. It's part of providing the service required of the TOC.

Shareholders being us, the tax payer?

 

[Deepgreen]

In a previous role I often deployed the ramp. In my current role, despite it being the same stock, ramps and stations I'm no longer permitted to touch the ramp.

If I was permitted I would be more than happy to. It's nothing to do with agreements or unions defining roles, the company has decided I'm not allowed to.

If I used 'basic human empathy' and deployed the ramp, and then was caught doing so (especially if something went wrong) I could be sacked. It's happened before.

Remembering the time when someone thought they'd just put the ramp down as it "couldn't be that hard", they messed up the angle and the wheelchair user tipped backwards and landed on their head requiring a stay in hospital.

The system needs to be changed, but in my opinion berating untrained staff such as cleaners for not doing something they're not trained to do is 'pathetic'.

How can the angle be "messed up" between the door sill and the platform surface? It is a fixed parameter. As someone who has had to deploy such a wheelchair ramp in a domestic setting many times, it really is not hard to do!

 

[azOOOOOma]

My first thought which has been covered earlier in the thread, it's at a terminus, why hasn't he guard walked through the train to ensure everyone's off? Clearly the lady was in need of help, no-one there, there could have been pax still in their seats asleep?

Also, she tried to contact them via twitter, but I assume no reply. Why have a twitter account when it's not answered during timetabled hours?? Myself, in that situation, I would have rung 999.

It was staffed. It was a mass disruption event so they were probably dealing with the many enquiries at the time. Are they do drop everything because a person of influence has an issue?

 

[TUC]

Maybe they couldn’t access the ramp? In most places it’s locked I believe. They had actually gone through the carriage quite quickly, so would be justified in assuming that help was on its way. Besides, I suspect they have clear instructions on what they can and cannot do, for very obvious reasons in terms of overall railway safety.

But that doesn't stop them radioing for hrlp, and doing so again if the passenger is still there when they have finished cleaning the train.

 

[Deepgreen]

Arrival announcements done. Before arrival they were reassured that their assistance was booked and I’d ensure it had arrived before I left.

I don’t know the assisted travel team. There are dozens of them and I don’t have time to make personal introductions.

You mentioned that two minutes is unacceptable. How do I do my safety related duties, personally introduce the passengers in A to the assisted travel staff member, then walk 1/4 of a km (takes me way more than two minutes) to M, find out the name of the staff, personally introduce the assisted travel passengers to the staff and then let them get on with helping them off.

All this when my return train is late awaiting my arrival, I then do the same process in reverse, walking 1/4 of a km to A then 1/4 of a km back to rear cab for dispatch and I just make the 600 passengers more delayed, more anxious about connections or making it to their work/Taylor Swift concert/hospital appointment?

Laura says NO.



Shareholders being us, the tax payer?

In this case perhaps, but until full and true nationalisation is enacted, not in all/most cases.

 

[Towers]

In a previous role I often deployed the ramp. In my current role, despite it being the same stock, ramps and stations I'm no longer permitted to touch the ramp.

If I was permitted I would be more than happy to. It's nothing to do with agreements or unions defining roles, the company has decided I'm not allowed to.

If I used 'basic human empathy' and deployed the ramp, and then was caught doing so (especially if something went wrong) I could be sacked. It's happened before.

Remembering the time when someone thought they'd just put the ramp down as it "couldn't be that hard", they messed up the angle and the wheelchair user tipped backwards and landed on their head requiring a stay in hospital.

The system needs to be changed, but in my opinion berating untrained staff such as cleaners for not doing something they're not trained to do is 'pathetic'.

It is also worth pointing out that as the industry makes moves to actually improve the assistance experience, by deploying an app used by all, it is important that the ‘right’ people are allocated the associated tasks otherwise the whole thing falls over. It might be tempting to suggest that everybody on the station should have ramp training etc, but you then end up with the first person who turns up casually disembarking somebody who is then “missing” when the allocated assistance team member turns up two minutes later. The cleaners have their role, and it doesn’t involve deploying ramps, just as the assistance team aren’t expected to casually hop onto a train and start cleaning it!

 

[azOOOOOma]

I feel for the passenger deeply. But I also feel for the staff who probably didn’t pause for breath last night trying to help and who’s names and reputations are now being dragged through the mud.

 

[TUC]

She was assisted onto the 1945 service at Leeds, at Leeds I believe it is NWR or Northern staff who do the assists.

They **should** of created a new assistance journey via the passenger assistance app, this would then notify LNER at Kings Cross of an arrival requiring assistance.

Surely systems should also be set up so that, not only is the destination station automatically alerted, but the guard is too? How else would they be aware of such a passenger if an incident occurred en route which required train evacuation?

 

[JamesT]

In this case perhaps, but until full and true nationalisation is enacted, not in all/most cases.

Though as the franchise system effectively ended during the pandemic and the private TOCs are only on management contracts, any increased costs will be paid by government.

 

[Towers]

My first thought which has been covered earlier in the thread, it's at a terminus, why hasn't he guard walked through the train to ensure everyone's off? Clearly the lady was in need of help, no-one there, there could have been pax still in their seats asleep?

Again, it isn’t a requirement for the guard to walk through a train upon arrival. There is little point while it’s sat there with the doors open and people for the next working potentially boarding ahead of time.

They should, however, already be aware of anybody on board requiring assistance, and of course should ensure that they have been met accordingly upon arrival. Guards on Azumas have access I presume to the external and internal CCTV from the rear cab, so it’s easy enough to confirm whether the buggy etc has turned up even from ten coaches away.

 

[John R]

Also, she tried to contact them via twitter, but I assume no reply. Why have a twitter account when it's not answered during timetabled hours?? Myself, in that situation, I would have rung 999.

It was answered, and they did reply, and were doing as much as they could to help.

Hello Tanni - I am just trying to call through to the London Kings Cross team leader to make them aware of this. Apologies this is happening - We should have someone with you shortly ^Libby


10:15 PM · Aug 26, 2024
·

 

[TUC]

It was staffed. It was a mass disruption event so they were probably dealing with the many enquiries at the time. Are they do drop everything because a person of influence has an issue?

As far as can be seen from Twitter, the LNER team for that account did contact Kings Cross to advise of the problem. The issue was the lack of response.

 

[Towers]

Surely systems should also be set up so that, not only is the destination station automatically alerted, but the guard is too? How else would they be aware of such a passenger if an incident occurred en route which required train evacuation?

The guard is aware via their use of the same universal app that the stations use.

 

[185]

The guard is aware via their use of the same universal app that the stations use.

You'd like to think so, but that has let many down spectacularly on several occasions... many have gone back to old fashioned ways of ringing things through.

 

[TUC]

Again, it isn’t a requirement for the guard to walk through a train upon arrival. There is little point while it’s sat there with the doors open and people for the next working potentially boarding ahead of time.

They should, however, already be aware of anybody on board requiring assistance, and of course should ensure that they have been met accordingly upon arrival. Guards on Azumas have access I presume to the external and internal CCTV from the rear cab, so it’s easy enough to confirm whether the buggy etc has turned up even from ten coaches away.

Whether assistance requirements have been met cannot always be seen visually at a distance. A visually impaired passenger, for example, would not need a buggy and could be stood on the train waiting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I feel for the passenger deeply. But I also feel for the staff who probably didn’t pause for breath last night trying to help and who’s names and reputations are now being dragged through the mud.

If these problems didn't happen frequently outside of disruption I'd have some sympathy, but it happens all the time when things are running smoothly.

 

[Towers]

Whether assistance requirements have been met cannot always be seen visually at a distance. A visually impaired passenger, for example, would not need a buggy and could be stood on the train waiting.

No, of course it won’t always be evident. My point is that in the case of a wheelchair user it is entirely possible for even a less motivated member of staff to observe the passenger disembark without having to trek down the platform should they have issue with doing so.

 

[rs101]

Maybe the TOCs should have an assistance system fit for purpose? The app should be able to provide near realtime updates of assistance needs - eg as they near the booked station, the customer receives an alert saying "staff are aware of your request, but there may be a slight delay as we have multiple requests booked for this station". Not rocket science and would help alleviate the concerns of the travellers.
Then the app could also have an "my assistance has not arrived" option which alerts the control centre and TM that there's a problem.

Does the TM have to complete any sort of admin process to confirm the train's arrival? If so, then that should have a simple check of "have all assistance requests been completed"

I think it's going to take a few travellers taking legal action against the TOCs and receiving compensation for them to decide it's something they need to address...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's going to take a few travellers taking legal action against the TOCs and receiving compensation for them to decide it's something they need to address...

For a long time disabled peoples' rights just weren't seen as important enough. The law has now changed on this, and people do need to use it as a valuable tool to force businesses to take the matter seriously.

I do often mention the "RUK standard minority" but this isn't that, it's just not doing the basics even acceptably well.

 

[Wolfie]

You plan two sets of assistance staff for that train. And you have enough staff that you can handle multiple trains containing wheelchair users.



You ensure the system is adequately specified to cope with the requirements. Of course, you could also design the trains sensibly, which could have put the wheelchair spaces in both classes in adjacent coaches, but that would have been far too sensible.



Nobody needs to get priority, you need sufficient staff to deliver the service you are offering properly.

This is the attitude problem I'm talking about. The system needs to be specified such that wheelchair users have the same access ability as able bodied users. This is easily achievable so is Reasonable. There are too many people, sadly including your posts, who think disabled people should be an afterthought or aren't important enough to be given what they deserve. They've drawn a bad card in life already, it's not hard to make sure that the services offered to them are impeccable every single time to compensate for that.

Until that happens, I wish the likes of Doug Paulley every bit of luck. The only way to correct this attitude problem is to drag companies through the Courts every single time it happens.

And no, I'm not disabled.

Well said. The complacency from too many on the industry has to end. If necessary it will be beaten out of them the expensive way.

Not acceptable apparently. Each person requesting assistance needs their own staff member according to some. When you can have up to ten assisted travel requests on arrival in KGX, ten members of staff need to be waiting at train doors immediately on arrival and this can all be done without employing extra staff.

Personally I don’t see it

The choice is a massive legal bill when every single incident is litigated. Oh and likely an Equality Commission investigation...

It's not new.

"More than me job's worth, mate".

That's why companies need to be taken to Court for every single failure. Only then will there be any chance of solving it. As I said, I wish Doug Paulley and the likes every bit of luck they can get.

Yup

 

[Carlisle]

The mention of the cleaners is odd, I would have thought they may well be equipped with radios or at least have a reasonably swift means of making contact with somebody able to help?

Indeed, but at the major starting stations disabled passengers are often assisted onto a train before the platform is advertised / opened to the general public, so if she made no communication with the cleaners they probably thought she’d joined for the trains next journey .