Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson - yet another assistance failure

[rg177]

We may be an outlier, but a couple of years ago I had occasion to travel from Euston twice with a passenger who was, at the time, using a wheelchair because of a broken leg, and on both occasions we found the staff at Euston most helpful, as were the Avanti staff on the train. (Though it has to be said that the Caledonian Sleeper staff were less helpful)

I used to have to call Euston a lot for last minute bookings (would regularly get things like someone ringing saying they're on a train at Leighton Buzzard, can they have help on arrival) and never once were they any bother. I get the impression they were constantly swamped but did seem to be doing their best.

Some stations are genuinely bad and it's very much just a cultural issue of "not my problem". When I dealt with complaints it was the same few stations coming up repeatedly.

 

[AlterEgo]

I didn't realise being disabled meant consideration and patience weren't required.

Next time, you should try routinely being the only person out of 500 unable to disembark a train owing to the train company's own shortcomings, and get on with your business. Perhaps then we will see how considerate and patient you will be, although I'm interested to know how, in your eyes, Tanni Grey-Thompson was neither in this case. Just go ahead and say it.

T G-T has a bit of a reputation for being outright rude and very ' don't you know who I am ' ( some of the Older Paralympians really don't like her ) , iirc she's also been shown to have numerous issues with being a perpetrator of discriminatory acts and words

Oh really, we're down to slagging her off directly now.

You're jumping to a conclusion based on only one side of a story and for me, there are too many holes in it.

We all know how busy Kings Cross is, it's inconceivable that hundreds of passengers and several members of train crew would walk past a woman in a wheelchair without one of them asking if she needed any help. I know I would. And surely no right minded individual would refuse to help because they were not insured; even if they made that excuse they would surely go and fetch a member of platform staff rather than walk off and ignore her?

It's also revealing that she admits that "I waited five minutes before putting anything on social media", which if I'm reading it right, suggests her first reaction was to start ranting to her followers on Twitter when surely the first thing she should have done was contact LNER directly?

So I think we should wait to see if there's more to this story than meets the eye

So you haven't explained how she's manufactured this problem to generate PR and assume you are walking back the theory she did this.

 

[800001]

She missed her intended train (for which assistance had presumably been booked) and took the next available train for which it wasn't..

With the help of station staff at Leeds who got her on the train! It is the stations staff’s responsibility to sort out Kings Cross, not the customer!

 

[DDB]

It really isn't very difficult to do a quick Google search. The link to the 2012 incident is freely available on the Channel 4 website and seems near identical to the latest claim.

How Paralympian Tanni had to crawl from train

As Channel 4 News launches No Go Britain, an investigation into transport for the disabled, the UK's most successful disabled athlete reveals how she was recently left stranded on a train.

www.channel4.com

Tanni Grey Thompson is a well known disability rights activist and she obviously knows the upcoming Paralympics make disability a very topical issue right now. Without wishing to minimise the barriers wheelchair-bound passengers sometimes face, I'm afraid TGT's latest complaint sounds suspiciously like a manufactured PR stunt to me.

As an anonymous poster you have claimed a named person has lied about something that happened to her apparently without a shred of evidence.

 

[800001]

T G-T has a bit of a reputation for being outright rude and very ' don't you know who I am ' ( some of the Older Paralympians really don't like her ) , iirc she's also been shown to have numerous issues with being a perpetrator of discriminatory acts and words

Funny, as every times I have assisted TGT on and off a train, she has always been extremely polite. Always very chatty and never once gave off a ‘don’t you know who i am attitude’ , even when there has been issues getting access to accessible space.

I’ve even seen her in trains, when I was travelling as a passenger, when in the train, she sits quietly doing work, and has polite interactions with staff.

 

[GatwickDepress]

The passenger's status as a celebrity or their personality is of no consequence, and neither is spreading gossip like a secondary school changing room. Disabled passengers are not inconveniences to be moaned about, and the way they are treated by the railway is not how they should be.

Surely, an easy solution on an InterCity TOC like LNER would be for the Train Manager or another member of the crew to walk through the carriages before leaving the train to ensure no disabled passengers are left behind?

 

[Dave W]

'does nothing' ? This seems a tad hyperbolic. The railway does a lot for disabled passengers. Not everything goes right. But then it doesn't always go right for able bodied passengers either. Not saying that incidents can't be investigated and things can't be improved, but every eventuality cannot be catered for perfectly.

I made no comment about the wider industry's efforts. I said this incident does nothing to help, and I am right.

If "every eventuality" is trying to alight at one of the country's biggest, busiest stations, then we still have a very long way to go don't we?

 

[uww11x]

Did the guard not spot her when they did ticket checks?

 

[VItraveller]

The issue she had sounds exactly like one I faced a couple of weeks ago, I had missed my train from New Street to Cardiff Central so caught the later train with the help of Birmingham New Street travel assistance staff, and I was assured that they would call ahead.
When I turned up at Cardiff, there was no one to meet me and when I later asked XC what had happened, they advise me that I’d been marked as a no-show, which was true at the time, I don’t know whether New Street didn’t update the app or didn’t call ahead to Cardiff Central to advise them I was on the later train.
So now, whenever I travel on an Xc train, I always use the messenger app to get in touch with their customer services directly to advise them of my journey, they can reach out to staff in some stations from what I understand.

 

[800001]

Did the guard not spot her when they did ticket checks?

The guard knew she was there, as mentioned several times in here, the guard brought food from the cafe bar to TGT and also came back a second time to check everything was on.

 

[uww11x]

The guard knew she was there, as mentioned several times in here, the guard brought food from the cafe bar to TGT and also came back a second time to check everything was on.

So the guard has left the train at Kings Cross?

 

[azOOOOOma]

What about busy trains where it takes a while to get off due to how

Did the guard not spot her when they did ticket checks?

Was the Train Manager able to do ticket checks? Yesterday afternoon/evening was a mass disruption event with full and standing trains. I was confined to the rear cab from York to London. I imagine other trains were similar.

-

It’s great to see spirited conversation with all points of view (all of which are equally valid) but I must admit I find it deplorable how some people speak about assisted travel comrades. They’re hard working, dedicated professionals whose reputation is being dragged through the mud and I find it extremely distasteful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about busy trains where it takes a while to get off

If able bodied people have to wait, then it's OK that disabled people also have to wait.

If able bodied people don't have to wait, then it's not OK that disabled people do.

That's the whole idea of equality. In so far as is reasonably possible, the experience of each should be the same. Which means assistance has to be very prompt.

It’s great to see spirited conversation with all points of view (all of which are equally valid) but I must admit I find it deplorable how some people speak about assisted travel comrades. They’re hard working, dedicated professionals whose reputation is being dragged through the mud and I find it extremely distasteful.

To be fair the two worst incidents I've witnessed were drivers, one on a DOO train, one on a guarded one. Drivers don't generally deal with customers directly so one can understand why their customer service may not be the best, but stand-up arguments and swearing loudly in public in the presence of people requiring assistance must make them feel six inches tall, and I'd treat that as a very serious disciplinary offence and have no respect for anyone who acts in that way in that situation.

(I don't mean swearing generally, e.g. "the F train is broken again, aren't these 777s* awful?", I mean swearing about something to do with an assistance case with that person present, which I've witnessed twice now)

* Sorry

 

[azOOOOOma]

If able bodied people have to wait, then it's OK that disabled people also have to wait.

If able bodied people don't have to wait, then it's not OK that disabled people do.

That's the whole idea of equality. In so far as is reasonably possible, the experience of each should be the same. Which means assistance has to be very prompt.



To be fair the two worst incidents I've witnessed were drivers, one on a DOO train, one on a guarded one. Drivers don't generally deal with customers directly so one can understand why their customer service may not be the best, but stand-up arguments and swearing loudly in public in the presence of people requiring assistance must make them feel six inches tall, and I'd treat that as a very serious disciplinary offence and have no respect for anyone who acts in that way in that situation.

(I don't mean swearing generally, e.g. "the F train is broken again, aren't these 777s* awful?", I mean swearing about something to do with an assistance case with that person present, which I've witnessed twice now)

* Sorry

I might not give off the impression but I’m on your side. I worked for a major yellow and blue Irish airline and was on a steering group for accessible travel. I’m on your side. Airlines have issues as they cannot provide their own services under EU law. Trains seem to have more freedom. I’m new to rail and thus don’t have a full understanding beyond that required for my role so I’m just trying to get both sides of the issue.

Airline assisted travel was a cluster***k most nights of the week. The trains I would say get it right 99% of the time. Mass disruption is exactly that. How we solve this is a one for debate.

It’s disappointing to see those who think we TMs just arrive, gather our things, then scuttle off to our next train and shrug our shoulders.

I bid farewell to all guests at the door as per our protocol. Once I’m able I check coach A wheelchair spaces. I then walk through the train and ensure bikes are off, no bags are left in bulk storage and finally nobody is left in M.

It’s troubling people think we just jump out of the cab and run to the next train via Little Waitrose before boarding our backworkings without a care in the world.

Nothing is further from the truth.

Laura x

 

[Bertiethebobby]

Presumably the options are to raise the platforms (but doors to platform toilets, shops etc would then be at the wrong level), or, probably easier, is to lower the running line. It may be difficult if the station is at or close to a bridge or level crossing, but are there any significant issues in lowering the track?

The whole thing is a minefield. Platforms vary widely as do the door height of trains themselves. There's not just height to consider either, the gap can vary enormously especially on a curved platform even more so when using the doors in the middle of the car rather than over the bogies.
It's difficult to see how it can ever be resolved. The Lizzie line has new platforms and new trains.

 

[12LDA28C]

So the guard has left the train at Kings Cross?

One would assume so, otherwise it would not have been a cleaner that spotted T G-T, as referenced several times in this discussion.

 

[Western Sunset]

In theory, all folks are equal. Though some are dealt a bad hand in life (upbringing/health/disabilities etc etc).

But some do have more influence than others; some like TGT, through their own efforts. Surely it's beholden on them to speak out and make a fuss to help others. If it was, say, Beryl Jones, who was stuck on a train, it wouldn't resonate with the general public (or focus a TOC) in the same way.

 

[azOOOOOma]

One would assume so, otherwise it would not have been a cleaner that spotted T G-T, as referenced several times in this discussion.

I wonder if that guard’s arrival was causing a delay on a northbound service? I wonder if that guard had a catering team threatening to leave the guard alone and get the next train northbound, leaving the guard’s northbound train with zero catering staff and over 1000 people clamouring to go north, full and standing?

The safety and wellbeing of 1000 people over a booked wheelchair user… just to put things into perspective.

You are all quick to mention evacuating the wheelchair user but seem to have zero thought for evacuating over 1000 with only a guard available to do it because they’re without any crew because they’re not obligated to work into overtime, all because the guard couldn’t leave a wheelchair user for two minutes on their previous train.

You all need to see the bigger picture I’m afriad.

Laura x

 

[800001]

I wonder if that guard’s arrival was causing a delay on a northbound service? I wonder if that guard had a catering team threatening to leave the guard alone and get the next train northbound, leaving the guard’s northbound train with zero catering staff and over 1000 people clamouring to go north, full and standing?

The safety and wellbeing of 1000 people over a booked wheelchair user… just to put things into perspective.

You are all quick to mention evacuating the wheelchair user but seem to have zero thought for evacuating over 1000 with only a guard available to do it because they’re without any crew because they’re not obligated to work into overtime, all because the guard couldn’t leave a wheelchair user for two minutes on their previous train.

You all need to see the bigger picture I’m afriad.

Laura x

2 minutes? I think it has been confirmed multiple times it was 20 minutes before TGT got off the train herself with no staff assistance.

The **1000** of other people have no relevance to TGT been left on the train.

 

[uww11x]

I wonder if that guard’s arrival was causing a delay on a northbound service? I wonder if that guard had a catering team threatening to leave the guard alone and get the next train northbound, leaving the guard’s northbound train with zero catering staff and over 1000 people clamouring to go north, full and standing?

The safety and wellbeing of 1000 people over a booked wheelchair user… just to put things into perspective.

You are all quick to mention evacuating the wheelchair user but seem to have zero thought for evacuating over 1000 with only a guard available to do it because they’re without any crew because they’re not obligated to work into overtime, all because the guard couldn’t leave a wheelchair user for two minutes on their previous train.

You all need to see the bigger picture I’m afriad.

Laura x

A delay to the outbound service is not more important than ensuring that all the passengers have safely disembarked the inwards working.

 

[azOOOOOma]

2 minutes? I think it has been confirmed multiple times it was 20 minutes before TGT got off the train herself with no staff assistance.

The **1000** of other people have no relevance to TGT been left on the train.

See previous exchanges between myself and other users who think anyone waiting two minutes is not acceptable, ever…

 

[Darandio]

You all need to see the bigger picture I’m afriad.

There is no bigger picture. Don't make someone crawl off a train 20 minutes after arriving.

 

[azOOOOOma]

A delay to the outbound service is not more important than ensuring that all the passengers have safely disembarked the inwards working.

Waiting 20 minutes does not mean anyone is in danger or that anyone has to leave in an unsafe manner…

 

[Wolfie]

I wonder if that guard’s arrival was causing a delay on a northbound service? I wonder if that guard had a catering team threatening to leave the guard alone and get the next train northbound, leaving the guard’s northbound train with zero catering staff and over 1000 people clamouring to go north, full and standing?

The safety and wellbeing of 1000 people over a booked wheelchair user… just to put things into perspective.

You are all quick to mention evacuating the wheelchair user but seem to have zero thought for evacuating over 1000 with only a guard available to do it because they’re without any crew because they’re not obligated to work into overtime, all because the guard couldn’t leave a wheelchair user for two minutes on their previous train.

You all need to see the bigger picture I’m afriad.

Laura x

Let's just say that legal precedent is not consistent with your stance.

 

[Wolfie]

Waiting 20 minutes does not mean anyone is in danger or that anyone has to leave in an unsafe manner…

Perhaps litigation for unlawful detention might change that view....

 

[azOOOOOma]

Let's just say that legal precedent is not consistent with your stance.

So are you saying assisted travel passengers should always have zero wait time, regardless of how many others onboard have requested assisted travel?

How do you staff it without ticket prices going through the roof? How do you staff it without taxes increasing? What do the staff do for the other 99% of the time that they’re not needed?

Laura x

Perhaps litigation for unlawful detention might change that view....

What specific law has been broken? What is the legal maximum wait time?

 

[LowLevel]

If able bodied people have to wait, then it's OK that disabled people also have to wait.

If able bodied people don't have to wait, then it's not OK that disabled people do.

That's the whole idea of equality. In so far as is reasonably possible, the experience of each should be the same. Which means assistance has to be very prompt.



To be fair the two worst incidents I've witnessed were drivers, one on a DOO train, one on a guarded one. Drivers don't generally deal with customers directly so one can understand why their customer service may not be the best, but stand-up arguments and swearing loudly in public in the presence of people requiring assistance must make them feel six inches tall, and I'd treat that as a very serious disciplinary offence and have no respect for anyone who acts in that way in that situation.

(I don't mean swearing generally, e.g. "the F train is broken again, aren't these 777s* awful?", I mean swearing about something to do with an assistance case with that person present, which I've witnessed twice now)

* Sorry

In so far as reasonably possible is the key - stations should be resourced to help people according to predicted demand, with some cushioning.

There might sometimes be a wait. It isn't just for example those using wheelchairs who book assistance to use a ramp. I used to work at a medium sized station which once a month would have a passenger turn up who required someone to push them in their own chair, someone to push their companion in a station wheelchair, another to push a trolley of suitcases and it was a 2 person job for the smaller staff to physically get them up the ramp and through the train door. That was up to 4 people required to manage them. In that time someone else might want help - a visually impaired person, someone wanting a hand with their luggage or whatever, and someone would probably have to wait.

For that half an hour two train dispatchers, a gateline assistant and the station supervisor would be totally occupied. Once a month. The rest of the time they'd cope. Should an extra employee be taken on to cope? No.

You can't have people sat doing nothing most of the time in case an unexpected turn up and go peak occurs - what you do have to do is be sensible - get control to send a message out asking guards to help with ramps or luggage or what not and explain there might be a short wait.

With respect, from your posts you don't use the passenger assist service - as someone who has facilitated it for many years people are quite understanding about waiting a short while. The key thing is not to leave them in no man's land - IE make sure they're off the train so they don't feel stranded and on to a platform.

What this case does highlight is that when things go wrong it's often in the evening - passenger assistance staff aren't often booked to work late at night and it falls on others to do it who aren't routinely involved. Passenger assistance bookings fall off massively once you get into the evening and it's not unusual for there to be none.

 

[HST43257]

There’s a lot of assumptions here about what went on without the official situation on the Passenger Assist app being referenced in establishing facts. Unfortunately (in this case) I imagine there are data protection and privacy laws to ensure myself or anyone else must not share information relating to a single instance.

 

[LowLevel]

There’s a lot of assumptions here about what went on without the official situation on the Passenger Assist app being referenced in establishing facts. Unfortunately (in this case) I imagine there are data protection and privacy laws to ensure myself or anyone else must not share information relating to a single instance.

You shouldn't be looking for it at all unless it relates to work you're carrying out, is the answer.

 

[father_jack]

In so far as reasonably possible is the key - stations should be resourced to help people according to predicted demand, with some cushioning.

There might sometimes be a wait. It isn't just for example those using wheelchairs who book assistance to use a ramp. I used to work at a medium sized station which once a month would have a passenger turn up who required someone to push them in their own chair, someone to push their companion in a station wheelchair, another to push a trolley of suitcases and it was a 2 person job for the smaller staff to physically get them up the ramp and through the train door. That was up to 4 people required to manage them. In that time someone else might want help - a visually impaired person, someone wanting a hand with their luggage or whatever, and someone would probably have to wait.

For that half an hour two train dispatchers, a gateline assistant and the station supervisor would be totally occupied. Once a month. The rest of the time they'd cope. Should an extra employee be taken on to cope? No.

You can't have people sat doing nothing most of the time in case an unexpected turn up and go peak occurs - what you do have to do is be sensible - get control to send a message out asking guards to help with ramps or luggage or what not and explain there might be a short wait.

With respect, from your posts you don't use the passenger assist service - as someone who has facilitated it for many years people are quite understanding about waiting a short while. The key thing is not to leave them in no man's land - IE make sure they're off the train so they don't feel stranded and on to a platform.

What this case does highlight is that when things go wrong it's often in the evening - passenger assistance staff aren't often booked to work late at night and it falls on others to do it who aren't routinely involved. Passenger assistance bookings fall off massively once you get into the evening and it's not unusual for there to be none.

Very good post.

I'll just add to it that despite what the industry/government peddled in the last few years there was never a need for redundancies in stations (they left people some people take voluntary severance)- there are now huge numbers of vacancies in stations due to particularly new starters going off to be guards or drivers once in the door and the workload with assists for those remaining has sky-rocketed.