Basingstoke to Southampton Electrification

[Nym]

and third rail is winter proof??? what drugs have you been taking?

See video above yorkiebear, I really don't think some people think about technical aspects before posting, unless of course it's regarding seating

He evidently doesn't remember the entire 3rd rail network in NSE shutting down because of snow.

 

[NSEFAN]

To achieve the same RMS power throughput you'd need a 1.414 times higher peak voltage and current, meaning you'd still need a significant amount of feeder stations to run at a low enough voltage to prevent flash over.

Surely that's too simplistic, as for AC you need to consider the phase offset between voltage and current for an accurate power measurement? Or is the power factor trivial on typical OHLE systems?

You know this better than me, Nym, so please correct my ignorance.

 

[tempests1]

I do believe it is unneccessary scheme, the only benefit will be for the freight traffic but if the third rail was upgraded they could use class 92's on the container trains which are currently languising at Crewe. How many XC services terminate/start at Southampton? I don't want to appear negative but how many of these announced schemes will be worth the huge amounts of money they will cost to construct. The South Wales electrification will possibly result in something like a ten minute saving from Cardiff to Paddington and costs xxx billion. I think schemes like the High Speed London to Birmingham bring the most benefit. It all has to be paid for as an example passengers from Woking have to pay £3500 for a annual season ticket to London. Someone who lives 24 miles outside of Paris has to pay £900

 

[swt_passenger]

I do believe it is unneccessary scheme, the only benefit will be for the freight traffic but if the third rail was upgraded they could use class 92's on the container trains which are currently languising at Crewe.

It was already pretty clear from the original government announcement that this was primarily a freight project. That's why it is consistently described in their HLOS as being from Basingstoke to 'Southampton Port'.

 

[joeykins82]

Conversion from diesel to electric on the MML is expected to have paid for itself within 9 years due to the significantly lower costs of operating the trains in terms of fuel, train maintenance and track maintenance. That's before you factor in the niceties of quieter trains both for passengers and neighbours, better acceleration and higher capacity on the route.

As far as the high cost of the UK rail network goes, investment in the infrastructure is not the culprit here. If anything we need more investment in electrification and infrastructure and the CP5 HLOS is a very good start. A good (if slightly sweary) insider's view is here.

 

[Nym]

Surely that's too simplistic, as for AC you need to consider the phase offset between voltage and current for an accurate power measurement? Or is the power factor trivial on typical OHLE systems?

You know this better than me, Nym, so please correct my ignorance.

OK then, replace wherever I've put power with Volt Amperes...

From what I know the power factor is usually >0.98 on new stock, because they tend to use motor controllers rather than direct connection, and these have gotten a lot better in recent years with the use of IGBT drive systems, rather than GTO systems or worse still, tap changers(!)...

Apologies for being simplistic though, most people don't know the difference between W, VA and VAr...

The point remains regarding higher peak voltages on AC systems per unit volt ampere RMS compared with DC systems (provided it is of course a smooth DC Voltage and Current)

 

[tempests1]

Conversion from diesel to electric on the MML is expected to have paid for itself within 9 years due to the significantly lower costs of operating the trains in terms of fuel, train maintenance and track maintenance. That's before you factor in the niceties of quieter trains both for passengers and neighbours, better acceleration and higher capacity on the route.

As far as the high cost of the UK rail network goes, investment in the infrastructure is not the culprit here. If anything we need more investment in electrification and infrastructure and the CP5 HLOS is a very good start. A good (if slightly sweary) insider's view is here.

Good Link, I can see merit in what you are saying, as regards the MML but it just the hit of schemes in one go. Obviously if BR had not been so cash starved it might have achieved these schemes.

 

[NSEFAN]

OK then, replace wherever I've put power with Volt Amperes...

From what I know the power factor is usually >0.98 on new stock, because they tend to use motor controllers rather than direct connection, and these have gotten a lot better in recent years with the use of IGBT drive systems, rather than GTO systems or worse still, tap changers(!)...

Apologies for being simplistic though, most people don't know the difference between W, VA and VAr...

The point remains regarding higher peak voltages on AC systems per unit volt ampere RMS compared with DC systems (provided it is of course a smooth DC Voltage and Current)

Ahh okay. Thankyou for clarifying.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I do believe it is unneccessary scheme, the only benefit will be for the freight traffic but if the third rail was upgraded they could use class 92's on the container trains which are currently languising at Crewe.

One of the very expensive problems with class 92 (and Eurostar) is that they need signalling upgrades as well as 3rd rail upgrades, because of the electrical interference problems.
All the Channel Tunnel routes in Kent had to be completely renewed (and redone when the problems still weren't solved).
92s to Southampton would need the same upgrades.

More seriously for the project, the freight TOCs don't want to know, even if gifted electrification for free.

 

[TheGrew]

trains are noticably slower to get going and grind to a halt at all times of year!

I was under the distinct impression that the 350s accelerate significantly more quickly than the 450s (though this could perhaps be more attributed to a derating of the latter due to power supply issues).

 

[tempests1]

I understand they are quite complex loco's and lots of upgrades to the signalling/electrifcation were neccessary for their travel to Dollands Moor across the Kent Route. However the point I am making is would this be more cost effective than ripping out the exisiting DC and installing AC from Southcote Jn to Southampton. Firstly in the the actual installation/Project management cost terms, & secondly with the expensive modifications to the exisiting DC stock currently in use in the area. My view is would make more sense to stay with the status quo. Ironically freight operators would probably still run Class 66's under the wires anyway It will be interesting to see if this scheme does actually happen

 

[John55]

I do believe it is unneccessary scheme, the only benefit will be for the freight traffic but if the third rail was upgraded they could use class 92's on the container trains which are currently languising at Crewe. How many XC services terminate/start at Southampton? I don't want to appear negative but how many of these announced schemes will be worth the huge amounts of money they will cost to construct. The South Wales electrification will possibly result in something like a ten minute saving from Cardiff to Paddington and costs xxx billion. I think schemes like the High Speed London to Birmingham bring the most benefit. It all has to be paid for as an example passengers from Woking have to pay £3500 for a annual season ticket to London. Someone who lives 24 miles outside of Paris has to pay £900

There are several reasons why changing from 3rd rail to OHLE is beneficial.

It is much safer for staff, not quite as important now with fewer walking on the track but on the old railway very important.

It is much more efficient. On the 750V dc network 27% of the energy is lost in transmission compared with 7% on 25kV OHLE.

It gives you more power at the train and the gapping issue is much less severe. I am sure a class 92 works much better on 25kV than on 750V.

Fault discrimination is much easier. Things may have moved on since I last spoke to someone involved but the power delivered to the 3rd rail for freight haulage and say multiple 3 x 450s trains means there is more and more current being delivered to the trains and less and less difference between normal current and a fault.

 

[tempests1]

There are several reasons why changing from 3rd rail to OHLE is beneficial.

It is much safer for staff, not quite as important now with fewer walking on the track but on the old railway very important.

It is much more efficient. On the 750V dc network 27% of the energy is lost in transmission compared with 7% on 25kV OHLE.

It gives you more power at the train and the gapping issue is much less severe. I am sure a class 92 works much better on 25kV than on 750V.

Fault discrimination is much easier. Things may have moved on since I last spoke to someone involved but the power delivered to the 3rd rail for freight haulage and say multiple 3 x 450s trains means there is more and more current being delivered to the trains and less and less difference between normal current and a fault.

You raise some good points, but it is a small scale scheme that is more for the FOC's. If they were doing the whole of the Waterloo to Weymouth Line then fine. True it may well be safer for the staff when walking on or near the line but then matters change against OLE when staff are working at height on structures/wagons as a safe seperation distance of 9 Foot 2.75m must be observed when the AC Is Live, historically a very small number number of staff have actually been juiced by the third rail.

 

[Robsignals]

I think someone needs to look into the relative merits better, you can deliver significantly more power, significantly more efficiently by using OHLE...

Yes, but at the price of a heavy, expensive transformer on each unit.

You'll also find that the "Oh, it's already DC" argument falls very much on it's backside too, every new train since the 90s uses AC traction motors, granted from a DC Bus Bar but the increased draw capabilities of AC over DC very much make up for the extra weight, and allow the use of standardised components, changing 750V DC to something that isn't 750V DC to use is very expensive component wise, and non-standard.

I don't doubt that, but the extra weight must take it's toll on the track.

Wouldn't AC conductor rail have a problem with capacitance to ground causing wasteful eddy currents?
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and third rail is winter proof??? what drugs have you been taking?

I didn't say that, third rail icing is a given but heating strip is a cost effective remedy. If the weather is so extreme that nothing can move the third rail will be back in action as soon as the ice melts while OHL may be lying all over the tracks.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I didn't say that, third rail icing is a given but heating strip is a cost effective remedy. If the weather is so extreme that nothing can move the third rail will be back in action as soon as the ice melts while OHL may be lying all over the tracks.

I dont believe the wires came down anywhere in the recent cold weather, speed restrictions yes ofc to be expected.

They did come down twice on the ECML, but lets face it they come down in any weather on the ECML i dont think the cold is the relevant factor, its that the ECMl electrification is crap.

 

[Robsignals]

I really don't think some people think about technical aspects before posting.

Few people can match your expertise, does that mean not saying anything?

He evidently doesn't remember the entire 3rd rail network in NSE shutting down because of snow.

Oh yes I do but since then a lot of heating strip has been fitted.
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I dont believe the wires came down anywhere in the recent cold weather, speed restrictions yes ofc to be expected.

Were special trains run to stop ice build-up?

They did come down twice on the ECML, but lets face it they come down in any weather on the ECML i dont think the cold is the relevant factor, its that the ECMl electrification is crap.

Not an accusation I've heard about any third rail line.

 

[OxtedL]

Not an accusation I've heard about any third rail line.

Weymouth.

 

[John55]

Not an accusation I've heard about any third rail line.

Just to help you out. The 3rd rail electrification on the Liverpool to Southport line is totally crap. There are frequent failures of the power supply north of Formby which NR are either unwilling or unable to sort out. I always understood single failures were not supposed to cause total failure of the service but not at Southport.

The most recent was last week when the line north of Hall Road was out for at least half the day. It is not that long ago it was out for 4 days due to a single cable fault at 6 am on a Monday morning.

I live in Southeastern territory and 3rd rail and power failures and faults are not that infrequent. The recent excitement on the Sidcup line was caused by a metal object on the line and caused just as much chaos as the ECML sees.

 

[ainsworth74]

Not an accusation I've heard about any third rail line.

Then you've not heard about Weymouth I assume? This line was done on the cheap meaning that the length of trains that can make it down there is very limited.

One thing that you've so far ignored in the 3rd Rail vs OHLE debate is that the top speed of 3rd Rail is about 100mph (the record is a bit higher at 108mph) whilst the top speed of OHLE I don't think has yet been found. As far as I'm aware the record speed of 357mph was not limited by the OHLE but by other considerations (breaking distances, capabilities of the train). Certainly OHLE is capable of sustaining the everyday operation of far higher speeds that 3rd Rail.

Also another thought, outside of suburban or metro operations when was the last brand new 3rd rail installation either here or abroad?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

One thing that you've so far ignored in the 3rd Rail vs OHLE debate is that the top speed of 3rd Rail is about 100mph (the record is a bit higher at 108mph) whilst the top speed of OHLE I don't think has yet been found. As far as I'm aware the record speed of 357mph was not limited by the OHLE but by other considerations (breaking distances, capabilities of the train). Certainly OHLE is capable of sustaining the everyday operation of far higher speeds that 3rd Rail.

To be fair to RobSignals, there's not that many places on the DC network where distances between stops and absence of competing paths would allow trains to run over 100mph anyway. Basingstoke to Southampton has enough stopping services requiring paths that I'd be dubious whether it'd be possible on that route.

More generally, I too am puzzled. I can see the benefits of converting from third rail to OHLE, but it seems to me that, given that third rail is better than nothing, surely the benefits of converting from diesel to OHLE are greater than the benefits of converting from third rail to OHLE. That would seem to imply that, in the absence of other factors, electrifying diesel lines is likely to have greater benefit than converting Southern Region to OHLE, so we should be prioritizing electrifying diesel lines instead. Is there something wrong with that reasoning?

 

[swt_passenger]

That would seem to imply that, in the absence of other factors, electrifying diesel lines is likely to have greater benefit than converting Southern Region to OHLE, so we should be prioritizing electrifying diesel lines instead. Is there something wrong with that reasoning?

That reasoning seems to assume that do nothing is an option? Once the existing kit is life expired and can no longer be used, it needs replacing with something, either like for like replacement (DC) or (AC).

It is that planned replacement that is required in the next few years anyway that is driving the decision.

 

[Robsignals]

Then you've not heard about Weymouth I assume? This line was done on the cheap meaning that the length of trains that can make it down there is very limited.

That's not the same as failing entirely, it's operating as designed which is adequate for predicted traffic apart from once a century (appx) events!

One thing that you've so far ignored in the 3rd Rail vs OHLE debate is that the top speed of 3rd Rail is about 100mph (the record is a bit higher at 108mph) whilst the top speed of OHLE I don't think has yet been found. As far as I'm aware the record speed of 357mph was not limited by the OHLE but by other considerations (breaking distances, capabilities of the train). Certainly OHLE is capable of sustaining the everyday operation of far higher speeds that 3rd Rail.

I look forward to 350 mph on the Brighton Line in due course. I agree OHL has advantages, I'm just suggesting there may also be disadvantages.

Also another thought, outside of suburban or metro operations when was the last brand new 3rd rail installation either here or abroad?

For 40+ years policy here has been only minor third rail extensions to exisiting lines, even Weymouth was a special exception.
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Just to help you out. The 3rd rail electrification on the Liverpool to Southport line is totally crap. There are frequent failures of the power supply north of Formby which NR are either unwilling or unable to sort out. I always understood single failures were not supposed to cause total failure of the service but not at Southport.

The most recent was last week when the line north of Hall Road was out for at least half the day. It is not that long ago it was out for 4 days due to a single cable fault at 6 am on a Monday morning.

Thats sounds like underspecced/life expired kit rather than a problem with the third rail. Could be fixed quite easily money permitting.

I live in Southeastern territory and 3rd rail and power failures and faults are not that infrequent. The recent excitement on the Sidcup line was caused by a metal object on the line and caused just as much chaos as the ECML sees.

Yes it's affected by (deliberately placed?) metal objects while OHL is vulnerable to any wind blown debris or just plain wind.

 

[ainsworth74]

That's not the same as failing entirely, it's operating as designed which is adequate for predicted traffic apart from once a century (appx) events!

Your response suggest that you'd never heard of a line that had been electrified cheaply with third rail. Weymouth however is an example of just that. I'm not suggesting that the third rail there fails regularly simply that it was installed cheaply.

I look forward to 350 mph on the Brighton Line in due course. I agree OHL has advantages, I'm just suggesting there may also be disadvantages.

Very funny :roll: You know full well that I'm not suggesting that 350mph is practical simply that OHLE can sustain higher speeds that third rail could ever hope to accomplish. Could you imagine the WCML or ECML or HS1 or HS2 being fitted with third rail electrification and run at existing or planned speeds?

For 40+ years policy here has been only minor third rail extensions to exisiting lines, even Weymouth was a special exception.

So if for forty years the professionals have avoided installing new third rail, except to extend existing lines, does that not suggest that perhaps they have some solid reasons for doing so? Or do you believe that you know better than them what the best system to use for future electrification is? I would further note that Network Rail have suggested that they'd prefer to wire up the South East commuter routes, sooner rather than later.

 

[starrymarkb]

Yes, but at the price of a heavy, expensive transformer on each unit.

It wouldn't make a difference for 377s, the non AC ones have ballast fitted equivalent in mass to the transformer so that both AC and Non AC units have the same vehicle dynamics (ie they can use the same suspension set up)

 

[David Goddard]

I look forward to 350 mph on the Brighton Line in due course. I agree OHL has advantages, I'm just suggesting there may also be disadvantages.

Still not as quick as this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7GXWuTwkF8

 

[PhilipW]

I would have thought that once the route to Southampton docks was electrified, it would be a fairly east decision to carry on electrifying to Bournemouth and Weymouth (the domino effect).

The route is fairly straighforward with few junctions and interactions. The number of bridges is fairly average with quite a number under roads built in the last 30 years (so I hope there would already be enough clearance) and with quite a number in the New Forest just carrying footpaths or bridleways over the line.

The only possible structural challenge may be the Upwey tunnel between Dorchester and Weymouth through which the track may need to be lowered (but I don't know).

Whilst all OHLE is expensive I would reckon that this scheme should come in at the lower end of what is perceived to be an industry average range..... but that's just my opinion.

 

[Robsignals]

Your response suggest that you'd never heard of a line that had been electrified cheaply with third rail. Weymouth however is an example of just that. I'm not suggesting that the third rail there fails regularly simply that it was installed cheaply.

Or it was installed to do what was foreseen as required at the time, when dual voltage stock was untried and converting the rest of the line was not an option.

Very funny :roll: You know full well that I'm not suggesting that 350mph is practical simply that OHLE can sustain higher speeds that third rail could ever hope to accomplish. Could you imagine the WCML or ECML or HS1 or HS2 being fitted with third rail electrification and run at existing or planned speeds?

No, and nobody is suggesting it. I'm simply asking if converting third rail to OHL will be as wonderful as everyone assumes.

So if for forty years the professionals have avoided installing new third rail, except to extend existing lines, does that not suggest that perhaps they have some solid reasons for doing so? Or do you believe that you know better than them what the best system to use for future electrification is? I would further note that Network Rail have suggested that they'd prefer to wire up the South East commuter routes, sooner rather than later.

And we'll only find out how good it is in practice when it's done, what's the betting on how long before passengers demand conversion back to "good old dependable" third rail!
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It wouldn't make a difference for 377s, the non AC ones have ballast fitted equivalent in mass to the transformer so that both AC and Non AC units have the same vehicle dynamics (ie they can use the same suspension set up)

How does acceleration compare between AC and DC would you say?

 

[OxtedL]

Thats sounds like underspecced/life expired kit rather than a problem with the third rail. Could be fixed quite easily money permitting.

I think you may have finally realised where this is going.

If 3rd rail did start to be eliminated in a big way then it'd be because doing so was economic. Nobody would be seriously suggesting it if it didn't at least on the back of an envelope look like it might wipe its face. We'll see how it pans out in due course.

With the Network Rail quote for Wrexham to Bidston electrification, for example, I seem to recall that you could do most of the NW electrification project all over again - obviously this was an entirely new scheme, but most of the costs will come up in renewal at some point.

It's been suggested on here before that one of the significant costs is the large number of substations required. These will all need replacing on the Southern and in Merseyside at some point along with other expensive equipment, and at this point it's at least worth considering if OHL would save any money in the long term, don't you think?

 

[Robsignals]

I think you may have finally realised where this is going.

If 3rd rail did start to be eliminated in a big way then it'd be because doing so was economic. Nobody would be seriously suggesting it if it didn't at least on the back of an envelope look like it might wipe its face. We'll see how it pans out in due course.

With the Network Rail quote for Wrexham to Bidston electrification, for example, I seem to recall that you could do most of the NW electrification project all over again - obviously this was an entirely new scheme, but most of the costs will come up in renewal at some point.

It's been suggested on here before that one of the significant costs is the large number of substations required. These will all need replacing on the Southern and in Merseyside at some point along with other expensive equipment, and at this point it's at least worth considering if OHL would save any money in the long term, don't you think?

Absolutely, though WCML etc. have/are having a lot of money spent on strengthening the power supply so with Southern traffic levels the number of substation/feeders and total system cost, if it's done right, may not be dramatically lower than for renewing the DC equipment. Time, or more likely hindsight, will tell.

 

[ainsworth74]

Perhaps it will but Network Rail certainly think that it's worthwhile and they'd be in a position to know.