Battery buses on London Route 358

[MotCO]

The London Omnibus Traction Society (LOTS) http://www.lots.org.uk/ has reported that Go Ahead Metrobus has won the next tender for route 358 (Orpington to Crystal Palace). It will be run by battery/electric buses, type to be announced.

Two unusual points about this:

• it is probably the electric London Bus route furthest from the centre of London to operate; and
  
• it is probably one of the longest rotas, operating for 21 hours a day (the last bus finishes at 1.29, and first bus out is 4.00)

The obvious question is how will such an intensively operated route cope with electric buses, and will there be sufficient time overnight to recharge the buses. It will presumably require careful planning and/or a higher than normal spare bus requirement.

 

[radamfi]

will there be sufficient time overnight to recharge the buses.

If they use charging at termini that's less of a worry. Britain, as usual, is out of step with the rest of Europe, where pantograph charging at the end of the route is becoming very commonplace.

 

[cnjb8]

If they use charging at termini that's less of a worry. Britain, as usual, is out of step with the rest of Europe, where pantograph charging at the end of the route is becoming very commonplace.

The range on these buses probably wont be enough for a route journey

 

[175mph]

If they use charging at termini that's less of a worry. Britain, as usual, is out of step with the rest of Europe, where pantograph charging at the end of the route is becoming very commonplace.

Do Ireland use pantagraph charging for any electric buses they might have?

 

[radamfi]

Do Ireland use pantagraph charging for any electric buses they might have?

As far as I know there aren't any electric buses in service in Ireland. Happy to be corrected.

 

[175mph]

As far as I know there aren't any electric buses in service in Ireland. Happy to be corrected.

So that would make Ireland more out of step than Great Britain with the rest of Europe then.

I wonder how many other European nations don't have any electric buses?

 

[radamfi]

So that would make Ireland more out of step than Great Britain with the rest of Europe then.

I wonder how many other European nations don't have any electric buses?

Ireland typically follows British operating culture. They use double deckers, don't like integrated fares, they use British style stage-based fares, they buy similar bus types to the UK etc. In some ways, they are even worse than Britain! There might be some poor countries without electric buses although many former communist countries have trolleybus systems. Maybe microstates like Andorra, Monaco or San Marino?

 

[transmanche]

The range on these buses probably wont be enough for a route journey

It's only 15 miles end-to-end. The Enviro400EVs, used on the 43, have a range of up to 160 miles.

 

[175mph]

Ireland typically follows British operating culture. They use double deckers, don't like integrated fares, they use British style stage-based fares, they buy similar bus types to the UK etc. In some ways, they are even worse than Britain! There might be some poor countries without electric buses although many former communist countries have trolleybus systems. Maybe microstates like Andorra, Monaco or San Marino?

Nothing wrong with double deckers, if you ignore the issues with low bridge crashes.

I've read that Germany likes the use of double decker buses too, in Berlin at least, not too sure about the other German towns or cities.

(Photo credit: Wikimedia).

Anyway, back on the topic of electric buses, does anyone here know of any non-European locations pantograph electric buses are in use, for example anywhere in the US, Canada or Australia?

 

[radamfi]

Nothing wrong with double deckers, if you ignore the issues with low bridge crashes.

The main problem with double deckers is dwell times, although that can be mitigated by using multiple doors and staircases. The Netherlands have started to use them but only on express routes where dwell times are less of an issue.

 

[cnjb8]

It's only 15 miles end-to-end. The Enviro400EVs, used on the 43, have a range of up to 160 miles.

I meant the terminus charging buses

 

[Ethano92]

The main problem with double deckers is dwell times, although that can be mitigated by using multiple doors and staircases. The Netherlands have started to use them but only on express routes where dwell times are less of an issue.

The dwell time issue can be balanced out by ticketing. A London double decker ( even the 2 door 1 staircase) with contactless ticketing solutions as it's only option for payment still has shorter dwell times than a small single decker where the majority of passengers buy paper tickets and wait for cash to be counted up/ticket to print.

With London trying so hard to help air pollution, what would it take for it to delve into pantograph charging, I know TFL are currently strapped for cash though.

 

[radamfi]

The dwell time issue can be balanced out by ticketing. A London double decker ( even the 2 door 1 staircase) with contactless ticketing solutions as it's only option for payment still has shorter dwell times than a small single decker where the majority of passengers buy paper tickets and wait for cash to be counted up/ticket to print.

Well obviously that kind of operation is highly sub-optimal, and big cities in Europe outside the UK and Ireland don't do it.

 

[freetoview33]

I still think Hydrogen buses are the way forward. For the simple reason that they can be used in the same way as Diesel. No need for charging ect. Okay upfront costs more but in the long run I still think it would work out cheaper.

 

[Busaholic]

I still think Hydrogen buses are the way forward. For the simple reason that they can be used in the same way as Diesel. No need for charging ect. Okay upfront costs more but in the long run I still think it would work out cheaper.

The new owner of Wrightbus, Mr Bamford, said the same thing in a recent newspaper interview.

 

[ChrisPJ]

The new owner of Wrightbus, Mr Bamford, said the same thing in a recent newspaper interview.

Infrastructure for gas production and refuelling seems to be the deal breaker for hydrogen as a road fuel any time soon. But on paper it’s a better solution than any form of battery electric

 

[radamfi]

I still think Hydrogen buses are the way forward. For the simple reason that they can be used in the same way as Diesel. No need for charging ect. Okay upfront costs more but in the long run I still think it would work out cheaper.

But how long are we going to have to wait for hydrogen? Time has run out and other countries have got on with battery bus roll out. The Netherlands have already replaced about 10% of the nationwide fleet of 5,000 buses with electric buses and plan to reach 75% by 2025. Only a few days ago Keolis announced a huge order of 259 buses scheduled for entry into service within a year.

 

[MotCO]

It's only 15 miles end-to-end. The Enviro400EVs, used on the 43, have a range of up to 160 miles.

I would expect them to be battery Enviro200s; they have to be single deck due to low bridges. Go Ahead London has experience of these on Red Arrows and other routes.

 

[Busaholic]

I would expect them to be battery Enviro200s; they have to be single deck due to low bridges. Go Ahead London has experience of these on Red Arrows and other routes.

Absolutely, and I'd expect all recharging to be done at Metrobus's Orpington garage, assuming they can okay this with the electricity company. It will still be interesting to see how it works in practice, the 358 requiring the majority of its pvr to work evenings and weekends, unlike the Red Arrows. I suspect tweaking may be required in practice, with the possibility of pantograph recharging at Crystal Palace bus station?

 

[Mikey C]

The other electric single decker routes in London seem to manage fine without any form of pantograph recharging.

 

[matt_world2004]

TfL are looking at pantograph charging but it's going to be a long way away if it comes in at all

 

[Busaholic]

The other electric single decker routes in London seem to manage fine without any form of pantograph recharging.

Yes, but they were specifically chosen to increase the chances of never requiring this, also, in the case of Waterloo garage, there were extensive alterations to the whole structure and operation with a lot hanging on it all happening relatively seamlessly. In the end, it didn't all go quite according to plan but Go Ahead managed enough improvisation to get away with it without negative publicity, which probably soothed furrowed brows both at LG and TfL.

 

[Mikey C]

Yes, but they were specifically chosen to increase the chances of never requiring this, also, in the case of Waterloo garage, there were extensive alterations to the whole structure and operation with a lot hanging on it all happening relatively seamlessly. In the end, it didn't all go quite according to plan but Go Ahead managed enough improvisation to get away with it without negative publicity, which probably soothed furrowed brows both at LG and TfL.

I'm not aware of any problems with routes like the 46 and 214 (both Enviro200EV) both "normal" routes so it seems that electric vehicles can operate quite flexibly in London

The London Omnibus Traction Society (LOTS) http://www.lots.org.uk/ has reported that Go Ahead Metrobus has won the next tender for route 358 (Orpington to Crystal Palace). It will be run by battery/electric buses, type to be announced.

Two unusual points about this:

• it is probably the electric London Bus route furthest from the centre of London to operate; and
  
• it is probably one of the longest rotas, operating for 21 hours a day (the last bus finishes at 1.29, and first bus out is 4.00)

The obvious question is how will such an intensively operated route cope with electric buses, and will there be sufficient time overnight to recharge the buses. It will presumably require careful planning and/or a higher than normal spare bus requirement.

The interesting thing to me is this is outer London route that's being converted, and not one which seems to go through obvious pollution blackspots, albeit it isn't a typical outer single decker route

 

[MotCO]

The interesting thing to me is this is outer London route that's being converted, and not one which seems to go through obvious pollution blackspots, albeit it isn't a typical outer single decker route

Yes, that is what I was alluding to in my opening post, but not so eloquently put

I also agree about the comment re pollution hotspots. However, Metrobus of old (i.e. in pre- Go-Ahead days) were quite innovative, such as the introduction of low floor buses (the 358 was one of the first routes converted, using Optare Excels), so I see this in the same vein.