Battery electric trains or Hydrogen Trains?

[Class465fan]

My apologies if a thread about battery electric trains has already been discussed, but as we probably won't see any further electrification could we instead put batteries on trains (like the 379 had a few years ago) to run on non electrified lines or is that still not feasible yet? Or could we instead use new hydrogen trains/convert pure diesel trains into hydrogen? What are your thoughts?

 

[MarkyT]

My apologies if a thread about battery electric trains has already been discussed, but as we probably won't see any further electrification could we instead put batteries on trains (like the 379 had a few years ago) to run on non electrified lines or is that still not feasible yet? Or could we instead use new hydrogen trains/convert pure diesel trains into hydrogen? What are your thoughts?

I don't believe for one moment we've seen a permanent end to electrification, merely a (possibly quite long) temporary hiatus on new schemes while technical standards are settled and costs and aspirations to do everything at once are brought under control. Even with bi-mode, batteries and hydrogen in the mix, conventional electrification should still be able to provide cost effective operation on the busiest and highest speed routes. Lower voltage OHLE might see a comeback as a cost effective option for 'lighter' more self contained parts of the network; a possible solution to the electrification clearance issues, but not for heavy haul or high speed operations. Batteries as part of a diesel-hybrid solution seem very promising. I think most new non HS electric stock may soon also have some traction battery capability, even if only to be able to get out of trouble at low speed when isolated, through icing on third rail as experienced during recent weather for example or perhaps to allow certain infrastructure maintenance or repair tasks to be carried out that would otherwise completely stop traffic. Hydrogen is yet to be proven as cost effective. The German rail application will be watched with interest. Crucially it needs an entirely new infrastructure set up for making and distributing the 'fuel'. If hydrogen gains traction (pun intended) in the automotive field then that infrastructure may come into being anyway, but it seems improbable that the railways could support it alone.

 

[BantamMenace]

If hydrogen gains traction (pun intended) in the automotive field then that infrastructure may come into being anyway, but it seems improbable that the railways could support it alone.

Hydrogen is a long way off in the automotive industry for the infrastructure and safety reasons. Batteries and then solid state batteries are the near future in automotive. My employer and I estimate battery electric vehicles will account for half of all new vehicle sales in western Europe by 2024.

Solid state and batteries in general are extremely modular by nature. I would expect to see them trialled on trains in the early 2020s and mainstream by the mid to late 2020s.

Tongue in cheek: If anyone wants to put a few millions into a vivarail style operation with me converting BR-era stock into BEMUs let me know. A few automotive firms are desperate for third party sales of their battery packs to justify the massive investment, I’m sure they won’t limit their third parties to automotive OEMs only.

 

[Harbornite]

Hydrogen's too dangerous, you'd be better off using steam or bionic duckweed...

 

[bavvo]

I was watching one of those old Top Gear repeats the other day where James May had just tested a Hydrogen (fuel cell) car and confidently declared at the end that they were clearly the future and these Battery powered Teslas were just a flash in the pan that would go nowhere. Don't see many Hydrogen cars around yet....

 

[PaxVobiscum]

I propose a hydrogen hybrid with a lithium battery - that should go like a bomb surely?

 

[NotATrainspott]

Hydrogen is a long way off in the automotive industry for the infrastructure and safety reasons. Batteries and then solid state batteries are the near future in automotive. My employer and I estimate battery electric vehicles will account for half of all new vehicle sales in western Europe by 2024.

Solid state and batteries in general are extremely modular by nature. I would expect to see them trialled on trains in the early 2020s and mainstream by the mid to late 2020s.

Tongue in cheek: If anyone wants to put a few millions into a vivarail style operation with me converting BR-era stock into BEMUs let me know. A few automotive firms are desperate for third party sales of their battery packs to justify the massive investment, I’m sure they won’t limit their third parties to automotive OEMs only.

Hydrogen isn't just a long way off, but will be completely bypassed by batteries. Once you've got good enough batteries, why would you go back to the complexity of hydrogen?

If I'm not mistaken, these experimental and new rail batteries have been lithium-iron-phosphate rather than lithium-ion. The chemistry is safer, which helps with the safety case for use on rail.

I propose a hydrogen hybrid with a lithium battery - that should go like a bomb surely?

I know you're joking, but a factor in the inefficiency of hydrogen power for vehicles is the fact that you do actually need a battery as well as the hydrogen stuff. The fuel cell can't vary its power output enough for it to power motors directly, and so needs a battery to act as a buffer.

 

[squizzler]

Another option: I learnt a little about super-capacitors from a presentation by Riversimple of Llandrindod Wells. They were hoping for major advances in what was, I think, described as hybrid capacitors with the energy density of lithium batteries and the speed of charge/discharge of supercaps.

I reckon a decent capacity yet extremely fast charging technology can be a game changer for rail usage. Perhaps it will open the door for discontinues electrification where only the easy sections of plain track need to be wired. Or, if you prefer, short energised sections reminiscent of an electric version of those water troughs that steam trains used to replenish their tenders on the routes to Scotland (yes, stations - as per existing design concepts - would make more sense)!

 

[GW43125]

Just remember hydrogen cells are very expensive as you need platinum etc. Also lots of energy is needed to electrolyse the hydrogen from water. I still think batteries will be a cheaper and safer option.

 

[D365]

Hydrogen trains are, in essence, just a “brainchild” of the revered Chris Grayling.

When the railways start putting serious money into battery technology, that’s when we are likely to see continued improvement in charge capacity.

And don’t forget we have DC lines such as in the Kent region where supply infrastructure is precluding the use of longer trains.

 

[NSEFAN]

Unless you allow for long layovers for charging (hence needing more trains to meet the service requirement), batteries are currently only suitable for small service extensions to otherwise electrified routes. Regenerative braking does help a bit, but ultimately the capacity of the batteries is just not there yet. Things could be helped with localised electrification at stations for charge boosting, either with OHLE or perhaps with some inductively-coupled system (the latter would be less efficient but maybe easier to install at some locations).

 

[David Andrews]

I see there is an Australian solar powered train. Whilst the British climate, even with changes, is unlikely to be able to support this could solar power be an addition to batteries?

 

[edwin_m]

Putting solar cells on the train itself would be no more than greenwash. The energy density of solar radiation is such that even with full sunlight on the roof it wouldn't be enough to power the traction, and a lot of the time the cells would be shaded or angled in the wrong direction to catch the sun. Solar farms could be built to support the charging point, but they would need a backup from the grid for non-sunny days and night-time, so you might as well just put the solar farm wherever it's most convenient and use the grid to take the power to the trains. Elevated solar cells above station car parks might be worthwhile in some places.

 

[pemma]

I was watching one of those old Top Gear repeats the other day where James May had just tested a Hydrogen (fuel cell) car and confidently declared at the end that they were clearly the future and these Battery powered Teslas were just a flash in the pan that would go nowhere. Don't see many Hydrogen cars around yet....

That might still prove true in the long term. The only place I see ever see battery powered Teslas is on display at a Tesla showroom.

At one point DEMUs didn't look to have a future, given the 210s only lasted a few years but then the Voyagers came along.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That might still prove true in the long term. The only place I see ever see battery powered Teslas is on display at a Tesla showroom.

At one point DEMUs didn't look to have a future, given the 210s only lasted a few years but then the Voyagers came along.

Other countries have had DEMUs for years, Germany has quite a few.

 

[broadgage]

I see there is an Australian solar powered train. Whilst the British climate, even with changes, is unlikely to be able to support this could solar power be an addition to batteries?

It is primarily a battery powered train, with a very limited charging input from solar modules fitted on the train.
As the depot is equipped with a large PV system, it could be argued that that the grid power used for charging is offset by that produced from the depot roof.
I hope that we will soon see a few battery trains in the UK, charged either when not in use, or by running on largely electrified routes and using the battery to venture to non electrified branches etc.

 

[Mikey C]

That might still prove true in the long term. The only place I see ever see battery powered Teslas is on display at a Tesla showroom.

Not in London. You see a fair number of Leafs and Zoes around too.

The biggest potential advantage of Hydrogen cars to the private user over electric cars is the ability to refill them quickly when on the move (if every petrol station converted to supplying hydrogen), thus taking away range anxiety and the need to have a convenient charging point

For trains I imagine this is less of an issue as long as long as there will be planned layovers and turnarounds where the train can be recharged.

 

[reddragon]

That might still prove true in the long term. The only place I see ever see battery powered Teslas is on display at a Tesla showroom.

At one point DEMUs didn't look to have a future, given the 210s only lasted a few years but then the Voyagers came along.

On the way to work today, 2 old leafs, 1 Nissan E-van, 1 new leaf, 2 Tesla S, 1 Tesla X, 2 BMW i3s.

Future off wire trains will be battery / capacitor hybrids collecting power at stations / easily wired sections. The technology is moving much faster than most people (including car manufacturers) realise. Today only a fool would buy a new diesel car as manufacturers scramble to phase them out as fast as they can before they're banned! Diesel vans, HGVs, busses & trains will follow.

 

[pemma]

Today only a fool would buy a new diesel car as manufacturers scramble to phase them out as fast as they can before they're banned!

I'm sure people made similar claims about those who purchased leaded petrol powered cars in the past. However, look what happened when the sale of leaded petrol happened, a cheaper substitute (LRP) was sold instead, which I think was cheaper than standard petrol and during the fuel protests in 2000 it was the only type of fuel many petrol stations hadn't sold out of. Yet those who scrapped their old cars had to pay more for petrol and then may have had to switch to public transport due to not being able to get hold of any fuel.

 

[reddragon]

I'm sure people made similar claims about those who purchased leaded petrol powered cars in the past. However, look what happened when the sale of leaded petrol happened, a cheaper substitute (LRP) was sold instead, which I think was cheaper than standard petrol and during the fuel protests in 2000 it was the only type of fuel many petrol stations hadn't sold out of. Yet those who scrapped their old cars had to pay more for petrol and then may have had to switch to public transport due to not being able to get hold of any fuel.

That may be true, but the roller coaster of phasing out diesel has started, resistance is futile etc etc!

 

[coppercapped]

On the way to work today, 2 old leafs, 1 Nissan E-van, 1 new leaf, 2 Tesla S, 1 Tesla X, 2 BMW i3s.

Future off wire trains will be battery / capacitor hybrids collecting power at stations / easily wired sections. The technology is moving much faster than most people (including car manufacturers) realise. Today only a fool would buy a new diesel car as manufacturers scramble to phase them out as fast as they can before they're banned! Diesel vans, HGVs, busses & trains will follow.

I think you will find that car manufacturers' knowledge about existing and impending battery technologies - and other alternative energy supplies and vectors - is more up to date than that of most people posting here.

 

[mushroomchow]

Battery electric is developing at a far faster rate than hydrogen, so for the next generation of trains at least BEMUs should be the standard. The paradigm shift likely to happen in the road industry in the next decade will probably lead to shared technology and a large range and power increase as a result, so it makes sense for the railways to develop similar technologies, especially with electrification stuttering but a patchwork of viable chargepoints now existing in most corners of the network.

That's not to say Hydrogen won't eventually have its place, but it's still a decade or two behind in terms of convenience and affordability. I'm watching Alstom's trial with interest, but we're a long way off it being an affordable source of train power.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Future off wire trains will be battery / capacitor hybrids collecting power at stations / easily wired sections.

The fly in the ointment here is that the intuitive best place to recharge and power a train (braking, stopped and accelerating from stations) is typically the worst place to be inflicting multi-MW loads (or negative loads) on power networks. The 11 or 33 kV networks typically found in town probably aren't up to the job of multiple BMUs recharging, especially if they're being crushed by the demands of EV charging, as is forecast to happen sometime next decade.

Of course this isn't insoluble, I'm simply saying that it's not as simple as hooking 250 m of OHLE in a station onto the grid and away you go,
It may makes the case for longer stretches of wiring - e.g. for MML you might stick the supply point at Ratcliffe-on-Soar and wire to Leicester, Derby and Nottingham, and suddenly a BMU hybrid only has to cover about 20 km from Market Harborough to Leicester and 40(-ish?) km from Derby to Clay Cross and suddenly the whole MML core is electric. This is why the "energy density of batteries vs diesel" has always been an apples-to-oranges comparison. A DMU has to cover 500-1000 miles between refills, for a BMU it might be more like 50-100.

 

[Skie]

The new Merseyrail stock will have the capability to be battery operated. They are meant to be getting 1 unit delivered pre-fitted to test out on the stretch between Ellesmere Port to Helsby, whilst the rest of the units will be 3rd rail only.

 

[The Ham]

The fly in the ointment here is that the intuitive best place to recharge and power a train (braking, stopped and accelerating from stations) is typically the worst place to be inflicting multi-MW loads (or negative loads) on power networks. The 11 or 33 kV networks typically found in town probably aren't up to the job of multiple BMUs recharging, especially if they're being crushed by the demands of EV charging, as is forecast to happen sometime next decade.

Of course this isn't insoluble, I'm simply saying that it's not as simple as hooking 250 m of OHLE in a station onto the grid and away you go,
It may makes the case for longer stretches of wiring - e.g. for MML you might stick the supply point at Ratcliffe-on-Soar and wire to Leicester, Derby and Nottingham, and suddenly a BMU hybrid only has to cover about 20 km from Market Harborough to Leicester and 40(-ish?) km from Derby to Clay Cross and suddenly the whole MML core is electric. This is why the "energy density of batteries vs diesel" has always been an apples-to-oranges comparison. A DMU has to cover 500-1000 miles between refills, for a BMU it might be more like 50-100.

As I understand it, by far and away the most expensive part of providing the connection to the grid, with junctions and changes to bridges being potentially substantially as well.

As such, the cost to provide a several km of wires (skipping out bridges) on a straight line probably only increase the cost marginally yet provide significant benefits.

The main advantage is that you have a longer time to charge the batteries for and a much shorter time away from the wires.

 

[edwin_m]

However you do also have to think about supply resilience.

There are always ways of re-configuring the 25kV network to maintain supply everywhere if any feeder is out of service. This might not be possible with an electrified "island" centred on a single feeder, unless that feeder itself had duplicate indpendent supplies. Even then a problem with the OLE near the feeder might isolate everything "beyond" it. So if they are essential to BMU operations the electrified sections will need redundant supplies, or "extension leads" from other electrified areas, both of which obviously cost money. This isn't quite the same if feeding bi-modes, where some sort of service could be run in diesel mode.

 

[InTheEastMids]

However you do also have to think about supply resilience.

Absolutely true - And this is a bit of a complex systems engineering problem to be attempting on here!

You could simply double up transformers, feeder cables etc. to buy resilience, but are these major failure modes? I get the impression that the pantograph/contact wire interface, and wind damage are the main additonal causes for problems on an electric railway.

On the upside, a BMU could be significantly enhanced by operating in "limp mode" with reduced speed and acceleration - doesn't the power required to overcome aerodynamic resistance increase in proportional to the cube of speed? Again it's a trade-off of "how much resilience would you like?" vs "how much additional cost/weight of battery can you afford to lug around?"

 

[The Ham]

The point I was making was that the extra cost associated with running the wires for several kilometres isn't very significant compared with a short section just providing power at a station due to the high cost of providing the supply point, but would provide significant benefits.

Given that you would need the same sort of resilience for either option wouldn't change the above.

 

[swt_passenger]

Roger Ford's monthly heads up (received today) is suggesting that the next Modern Railways will once again attempt to explain why neither batteries or hydrogen are the answers some organisations are hoping for.

I expect he means that batteries will remain a minor contribution suitable for short branches off the wires, and that hydrogen has no economic case on a large scale. Not really news.

 

[JohnR]

Roger Ford's monthly heads up (received today) is suggesting that the next Modern Railways will once again attempt to explain why neither batteries or hydrogen are the answers some organisations are hoping for.

I expect he means that batteries will remain a minor contribution suitable for short branches off the wires, and that hydrogen has no economic case on a large scale. Not really news.

Basically, "You cannae change the laws of physics!". Additional equipment will make units overweight under the wires, and the ability of batteries or hydrogen to provide enough power makes it unlikely to be used on a main line (ie speeds of 100mph+).