BBC: Chris Grayling suggests future rail industry wage rises should be linked to lower CPI, not RPI

[pemma]

The DfT set the level of the fares increases. They have decided to transfer more of the cost of running the railway to the passenger. They can manage this situation any time they wish. The fact is they are trying to blame evil unions and disgustingly over paid railway staff for their own inadequacy.

You must know this yet seem to want to support them in this - I wonder why. Could it be jealousy and your desire to see railway people brought down a peg or two?

So in short you have nothing constructive to say so want to post fabrications about me and other forum users instead. You seem all too keen to criticise the current system but when asked for your opinion on how to make things better you're clueless. Are you actually Chris Grayling's personal adviser.

 

[DarloRich]

So in short you have nothing constructive to say so want to post fabrications about me and other forum users instead. You seem all too keen to criticise the current system but when asked for your opinion on how to make things better you're clueless. Are you actually Chris Grayling's personal adviser.

It is quite easy to make this situation better: The government freeze all fares rises, just like they have done with fuel duty.

PS - if i were Graylings advisor I would be paid more and benefit from a decent year on year pay rise.

PPS - The bigger issue is the poor year on year pay rises offered to most people in this country. That takes longer to fix.

 

[pemma]

It is quite easy to make this situation better: The government freeze all fares rises, just like they have done with fuel duty.

PS - if i were Graylings advisor I would be paid more and benefit from a decent year on year pay rise.

PPS - The bigger issue is the poor year on year pay rises offered to most people in this country. That takes longer to fix.

How many times do I have to say the same thing? I wasn't picking up on Grayling's suggestion in original post but your assertion that low paid employees must be guaranteed a pay rise so they aren't punished for the failing of management. If that is to happen there must be a solution (not just a rail one) so how will that work if a business is losing money?

 

[Dave1987]

It is indeed hypocrisy - but equally so it is unthinkable hypocrisy for the unions (especially RMT) to criticise fare rises, when their demands for ever higher wages are one of the (number of) factors behind this. TOC staffing costs alone make up approximately 25% of the cost of running passenger services (according to NRE, i.e. RDG). joncombe has pointed out that salaries in total make up 50% of costs and this doesn't sound unthinkable to me.

I am usually loathe to agree with The Telegraph, but I have to say that their article here (sorry, soft paywall) makes a compelling point in that rail staff pay has indeed increased astronomically both in real terms and in absolute terms, since privatisation.

Now of course we'll get the "so what, are you jealous of train staff having an effective union" brigade, but my point is this - the reason I, and other passengers, care about it is because we are in part bankrolling these massive increases through massively increased fares (as well as increased subsidies from taxation). In many cases, rail passengers have few alternatives - e.g. travelling into and out of London on high speed mainline services, there is simply no equivalent alternative. Therefore saying that it's none of the passenger's business is wrong - they have little choice but to use the services, so it is only fair they have some input into what the money they pay is used for. It's almost like a form of taxation.

If conditions and pay had merely stayed the same in real terms then the explosion in passenger numbers over the last 20-odd years may well have allowed fares to stay the same in real terms (i.e. increasing by something like CPIH). So there absolutely is a causal link between staff pay and fare rises, and so, whilst Grayling et al pitting staff against passengers is unpleasant and political manipulation, he is absolutely onto a true point. It would be unfair to dismiss the point out of hand merely because it was made for political purposes.

Whilst I understand you points and yes I totally get the arguments about everyone else is getting measly pay rises and getting statistically poorer but you need to consider where the huge amounts of money are wasted in the system. The whole franchising process is extraordinarily wasteful in its current guise and the convoluted way third party contractors are used everywhere adds yet more costs for no extra gain. Grayling has attacked unions and staff because its an easy target. A Tory politician planting the blame for ticket price hikes squarely at unions and staff will go down very well in right wing circles. But he is not addressing the real problem with waste in the system because that is much harder to do and won't sit well with the notion of outsourcing everything and god forbid the franchising process became more efficient! Grayling is going for the easy pickings plain and simple, but I would not expect anything less from him as it is never ever his fault for anything.

 

[DarloRich]

How many times do I have to say the same thing? I wasn't picking up on Grayling's suggestion in original post but your assertion that low paid employees must be guaranteed a pay rise so they aren't punished for the failing of management. If that is to happen there must be a solution (not just a rail one) so how will that work if a business is losing money?

I don't believe I have said that at all. Lets move on.

 

[pemma]

I don't believe I have said that at all. Lets move on.

Post 71 in response to @joncombe's post that he didn't think there should be any fare rises this year. It seems you later backtracked after realising you misinterpreted his post.

 

[Bodiddly]

And the jealousy boils over. Instead of moaning about railway pay rises, why don't people concentrate on getting a better deal in their own industry? Once again, railway staff who do an amazing job running this fragmented, dislocated railway get demonised by Tory ministers and the media. We have a strong Union, that is why we can collectively bargain for our pay and it puts us in a strong position. The ramblings of the current Transport Secretary are just that, ramblings. If he wants to pick a fight with arguably the strongest Unions in the UK, there will only be one winner.
I put this to Failing Grayling, you should hand back any ministerial pay you have ever received as you are an imposter and not fit to even be an MP.

 

[Del1977]

The wider issue here, is that the public - encouraged by the media - believe that season ticket fares are excessive, and thus you have pressure on the Graylings of the world.


Polly Toynbee over in the Guardian has a column today, highlighting that a Peterborough to London King's Cross ticket costs £6,540 a year.

But that's a 160 mile round trip every day. It works out at 11p per mile, or 58,400 miles a year, and you are whisked to London in less than an hour. I've no doubt it's a big chunk out of someone's salary, but they couldn't drive that distance every day for work for less than £6,540 a year - especially if you take in to account wear and tear and parking charges.

What price do people actually expect to pay for train travel?

 

[pemma]

The wider issue here, is that the public - encouraged by the media - believe that season ticket fares are excessive, and thus you have pressure on the Graylings of the world.


Polly Toynbee over in the Guardian has a column today, highlighting that a Peterborough to London King's Cross ticket costs £6,540 a year.

But that's a 160 mile round trip every day. It works out at 11p per mile, or 58,400 miles a year, and you are whisked to London in less than an hour. I've no doubt it's a big chunk out of someone's salary, but they couldn't drive that distance every day for work for less than £6,540 a year - especially if you take in to account wear and tear and parking charges.

What price do people actually expect to pay for train travel?

Don't know how you've got 11p per mile. I make it 17.6p presuming the commuter works 5 days a week, gets only the legal minimum holiday allowance and doesn't take off any sick days and goes to their usual place of work on every day they work. So probably closer to 20p per mile for the typical commuter.

 

[pemma]

And the jealousy boils over. Instead of moaning about railway pay rises, why don't people concentrate on getting a better deal in their own industry? Once again, railway staff who do an amazing job running this fragmented, dislocated railway get demonised by Tory ministers and the media. We have a strong Union, that is why we can collectively bargain for our pay and it puts us in a strong position. The ramblings of the current Transport Secretary are just that, ramblings. If he wants to pick a fight with arguably the strongest Unions in the UK, there will only be one winner.
I put this to Failing Grayling, you should hand back any ministerial pay you have ever received as you are an imposter and not fit to even be an MP.

The first comment I've highlighted might mean something, if you hadn't identified yourself as a railway employee.

 

[The Ham]

The wider issue here, is that the public - encouraged by the media - believe that season ticket fares are excessive, and thus you have pressure on the Graylings of the world.


Polly Toynbee over in the Guardian has a column today, highlighting that a Peterborough to London King's Cross ticket costs £6,540 a year.

But that's a 160 mile round trip every day. It works out at 11p per mile, or 58,400 miles a year, and you are whisked to London in less than an hour. I've no doubt it's a big chunk out of someone's salary, but they couldn't drive that distance every day for work for less than £6,540 a year - especially if you take in to account wear and tear and parking charges.

What price do people actually expect to pay for train travel?

Most people work 233 days a year (365-52 Saturdays -52 Sundays -28 days leave). Multiple they by 160 miles and that's circa 37,000 miles a year.

That's still 17.5p a mile, which is very good value compared to a car given how much people right off in fixed costs (insurance, VED, purchase costs, servicing, etc.) and that fuel is often 9p-15p per mile for most vehicles.

 

[pemma]

Are staff costs a percentage of the overall ticket cost, or broken down to separate the DfT, Network Rail and the TOCs?

Given Network Rail manages the infrastructure, by the time you get to the TOC level, you'd expect staff costs to be significant. But if you include the running cost of the railway, I'd expect staff costs reduce as a percentage (although obviously there are staff costs there, but a lot is contracted work which muddies the waters further). So how is it broken down?

Looking at the Northern franchise agreement I can't see any reference to that. Although, of note schedule 15.2 means in the final 13 months of the franchise Northern can not recruit additional employees, give employees pay rises above RPI or reduce fares unless permission is obtained from the SoS for Transport.

 

[pemma]

That's still 17.5p a mile, which is very good value compared to a car given how much people right off in fixed costs (insurance, VED, purchase costs, servicing, etc.) and that fuel is often 9p-15p per mile for most vehicles.

But a car gives you flexibility and a guaranteed seat which a train doesn't. You'd expect the train to be cheaper than the overall cost of using a car but to be more expensive than an all stops bus service.

 

[Bodiddly]

The first comment I've highlighted might mean something, if you hadn't identified yourself as a railway employee.

What exactly is your point? I am a railway employee, I get paid well and I work hard and do a good job for my salary. I also get a bit sick of hearing how I am grossly overpaid. Government ministers who can't do their job are vastly overpaid.

 

[Bromley boy]

The first comment I've highlighted might mean something, if you hadn't identified yourself as a railway employee.

Ah yes, we all know you think the opinions of rail staff mean nothing. The opinions of enthusiasts count far more, of course.

 

[Bromley boy]

But a car gives you flexibility and a guaranteed seat which a train doesn't. You'd expect the train to be cheaper than the overall cost of using a car but to be more expensive than an all stops bus service.

Not if you’d be driving it 60,000 miles in a year.

 

[sprunt]

Polly Toynbee over in the Guardian has a column today, highlighting that a Peterborough to London King's Cross ticket costs £6,540 a year.

But that's a 160 mile round trip every day. It works out at 11p per mile, or 58,400 miles a year, and you are whisked to London in less than an hour. I've no doubt it's a big chunk out of someone's salary, but they couldn't drive that distance every day for work for less than £6,540 a year - especially if you take in to account wear and tear and parking charges.

What's ridiculous isn't that price, it's that the country has so many people travelling so far to work. Do less centralised countries have lower average commuter mileage, does anyone know?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

What exactly is your point? I am a railway employee, I get paid well and I work hard and do a good job for my salary. I also get a bit sick of hearing how I am grossly overpaid. Government ministers who can't do their job are vastly overpaid.

The point about rail staff being paid 'too much' is that the railways often have an effective monopoly on transport/commuting for a given route/journey. Yes, there may be alternatives but they are so much slower or less convenient that they cannot be taken seriously as alternatives. In the light of this, the pay of rail staff, (and rises thereof), both of which have some considerable impact on fare levels and fare increases, is very much the passenger's business. It's not just a purely private matter between the employer and the employee - as the efforts of the unions have ramifications for ordinary people just trying to earn themselves a living.

 

[Bodiddly]

Not to mention fuel, tax, insurance, parking charges, wear and tear and general frustration of sitting in exhaust fumes travelling at 3 mph. The car v train debate is as old as the hills. Would I rather pay £50 for a tank of petrol or £70 for a train to take me from point A to point B? It's an open question with no real answer. Every circumstance is different. I get free travel on Scotrail. If I was to go from Inverness to Fort William, I can drive the 70 odd miles in around an hour. It will cost about £10 in petrol. I can go by train, Inverness - Glasgow, Glasgow - Fort William. It's free to me but would take a whole day to do it. It's a non argument.

 

[The Ham]

What's ridiculous isn't that price, it's that the country has so many people travelling so far to work. Do less centralised countries have lower average commuter mileage, does anyone know?

I would suggest that the numbers making that journey are fairly small. Even circa 40 miles from London only about 10% travel to work in London, the largest percentage of people work within 10 miles of where they live.

That's in a district council area where it's 4tph to London in the peaks and sub 1 hour to get there and most employment would appear to be out of the district council area.

 

[Bromley boy]

The point about rail staff being paid 'too much' is that the railways often have an effective monopoly on transport/commuting for a given route/journey. Yes, there may be alternatives but they are so much slower or less convenient that they cannot be taken seriously as alternatives. In the light of this, the pay of rail staff, (and rises thereof), both of which have some considerable impact on fare levels and fare increases, is very much the passenger's business. It's not just a purely private matter between the employer and the employee - as the efforts of the unions have ramifications for ordinary people just trying to earn themselves a living.

Remember as well that the reason fares have risen so steeply in recent years is the government’s strategy of shifting the cost of running the railway away from general taxation and onto the fare-payer.

It seems a little blinkered to blame staff wages for x% increase in season ticket prices when that increase could just as easily be blamed on the government’s decision to reduce subsidy from wider taxation.

But of course that rather more nuanced view doesn’t appeal to the jealousy and prejudice of the daily mail readership.

 

[The Ham]

(depending on which side of the political fence depends on whether some view that as money to greedy fat cats while some others view it as money to greedy union members).

I love how predictable people are...

 

[Railwaysceptic]

How many times do I have to say the same thing? I wasn't picking up on Grayling's suggestion in original post but your assertion that low paid employees must be guaranteed a pay rise so they aren't punished for the failing of management. If that is to happen there must be a solution (not just a rail one) so how will that work if a business is losing money?

Better management?

 

[pemma]

Ah yes, we all know you think the opinions of rail staff mean nothing. The opinions of enthusiasts count far more, of course.

A passenger saying "the guard did an amazing job in assisting my 90 year old Gran" is a quantified meaningful comment. A guard saying "we do an amazing job" is unqualified, meaningless and expressing arrogance. That's why I felt the need to comment and I would have made the same comment whether it was a postman I didn't know who said they do an amazing job, or Chris Grayling.

 

[Dave1987]

Well it seems the starting gun on the "race to the bottom" may well have been fired. There is an article on the Telegraph website titled "There is only one way to stop train tickets going up: crush the rail unions". It is behind a paywall so i have no idea what the article actually says because its behind a paywall but the title in itself is deliberately designed to spark hatred against rail staff. Here is the link https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/16/one-way-stop-train-tickets-going-crush-rail-unions/

If Grayling and the right wing media want to spark hatred against rail staff then they are doing a damn good job off it! What's very interesting is that those rail unions represent some of the people the Government pledged to help.

 

[pemma]

Better management?

Yes. I already hinted in an earlier post that's the solution but a good manager isn't going to join if you recruit on the cheap and if an existing employee is promoted to manager then it's unfair to not to pay them a good manager's salary. Hence, if the business is doing badly as a result of previous mis-management there's no left over money for things like pay rises and the workers are left with a promise of jam tomorrow.

 

[pemma]

Well it seems the starting gun on the "race to the bottom" may well have been fired. There is an article on the Telegraph website titled "There is only one way to stop train tickets going up: crush the rail unions". It is behind a paywall so i have no idea what the article actually says because its behind a paywall but the title in itself is deliberately designed to spark hatred against rail staff. Here is the link https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/16/one-way-stop-train-tickets-going-crush-rail-unions/

If Grayling and the right wing media want to spark hatred against rail staff then they are doing a damn good job off it! What's very interesting is that those rail unions represent some of the people the Government pledged to help.

I wouldn't trust The Telegraph. I got a message telling me to turn off my ad blocker to support 'quality journalism' and when I did I noted the journalist who wrote the article had got Lancaster mixed up with Lancashire.

 

[Bromley boy]

A passenger saying "the guard did an amazing job in assisting my 90 year old Gran" is a quantified meaningful comment. A guard saying "we do an amazing job" is unqualified, meaningless and expressing arrogance. That's why I felt the need to comment and I would have made the same comment whether it was a postman I didn't know who said they do an amazing job, or Chris Grayling.

What’s wrong with someone expressing admiration for the work they and their colleagues do, often under difficult circumstances?

It has become obvious from your many posts on here that, for reasons known only to you, you have no respect for rail staff and believe they are overpaid.

I wonder, if a nurse had said they do an amazing job, would you be on here saying they had expressed arrogance?

 

[XDM]

Ah yes, we all know you think the opinions of rail staff mean nothing. The opinions of enthusiasts count far more, of course.

Don't agree with your "Ah yes, we all know".

Who are your "we"?

I guess a cabal of two who work together to hound anyone who doesn't think guards & other staff deserve the earth & to be eternally preserved from gentle criticism.

We all know, well, myself and two colleagues who regularly look at the forum, that the sensible posters you harangue, including jCollins, are
polite, considered & worth reading.
Please rethink & do not drive the non rmt voices out of the forum.

 

[Bromley boy]

Well it seems the starting gun on the "race to the bottom" may well have been fired. There is an article on the Telegraph website titled "There is only one way to stop train tickets going up: crush the rail unions". It is behind a paywall so i have no idea what the article actually says because its behind a paywall but the title in itself is deliberately designed to spark hatred against rail staff. Here is the link https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/16/one-way-stop-train-tickets-going-crush-rail-unions/

If Grayling and the right wing media want to spark hatred against rail staff then they are doing a damn good job off it! What's very interesting is that those rail unions represent some of the people the Government pledged to help.

Unfortunately the telegraph is the broadsheet equivalent of the mail.... My mum is an avid reader so I’m treated to it every time I visit the folks.

The Guardian is better quality (albeit with a strong left bias). The Times is a far better, centre-right read.