BBC Documentary 'The Railways'

[Buttsy]

The proliferation of coffee and food outlets inside stations, coupled with the no bins policy is indeed stupid. Also trains have small bins, if at all. It is no surprise that people just dump their litter around the place.

Surely it makes sense for all stations that vend food or drink to have bins to put the litter in?

Bins were removed from stations in 1993 following the Warrington bombings.
Have to say that FGW at Oxford have a decent idea in putting plastic bags in clips so you can drop litter in it, but should anyone try to drop a bomb in there, there's going to be little 'dangerous' metal shrapnel flying around.

In this day & age, no bins is ridiculous as the security risk from exploding bins has reduced almost to nothing.

 

[Flamingo]

It depends on what risk category a station is in whether it has bins or not.
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In this day & age, no bins is ridiculous as the security risk from exploding bins has reduced almost to nothing.

Lots of people out there who would'nt agree with you on that one...

 

[michael769]

Lots of people out there who would'nt agree with you on that one...

Probably the same people who think that triangular flapjacks are more dangerous than square ones!

The reality is that if bins are removed terrorists will just put it somewhere else - probably behind a safety sign. Sadly Terrorism is, like Health and Safety, often used by people of poor judgement in attempt to justify irrational decisions.

 

[tsr]

The proliferation of coffee and food outlets inside stations, coupled with the no bins policy is indeed stupid. Also trains have small bins, if at all. It is no surprise that people just dump their litter around the place.

Surely it makes sense for all stations that vend food or drink to have bins to put the litter in?

As others have said, it is due to the categorisation of how risky it would be to provide a bin. If you really need to dispose of rubbish, give it to the station cleaner, ask the staff if you can use the bin in an information booth (there generally is one), wait until you're on the train, or (if nearby), go back to the vendor.

 

[Kentish Paul]

Waterloo Main has bins on the concourse. Put my sandwhich wrapping in the one by M&S just last week.

 

[Wolfie]

Bins were removed from stations in 1993 following the Warrington bombings.

Have to say that FGW at Oxford have a decent idea in putting plastic bags in clips so you can drop litter in it, but should anyone try to drop a bomb in there, there's going to be little 'dangerous' metal shrapnel flying around.

In this day & age, no bins is ridiculous as the security risk from exploding bins has reduced almost to nothing.

Are you sure it was Warrington in 93 that prompted bin removal?

As someone who worked in London then (and still does) I am pretty sure that it was the IRA bomb planted in Feb 91 in a bin at Victoria Station which killed one person and injured over 40 people as a result of an inadequate warning being given.

The hop and transparent bag bins are pretty common. However I have seen the downside on my local London Overground station. Rats can and will rip the bottom right out of the bad and hence spread all of the rubbish to get to food thrown in such a bin.

After 7/7 and lord knows how many terrorist attempts foiled by the security services the level of confidence expressed in your last sentence is frankly ludricous.

 

[jon0844]

I think we're probably fairly lucky that most people who want to cause terror are now thinking bigger than a bomb in a bin. I'm not sure that's a good thing, but most terrorists would be aware that not a lot will happen if you blew up a bin.

Yes, some people might be killed, but people will just carry on and show defiance. There will be more police out and all bins will be removed again, but that's not a great result.

We had 9/11 and 7/7 which showed the rules had changed and I am sure the next atrocity will be even bigger and 'better' and we just have to hope that the intelligence services can get to them in time.

 

[trainophile]

Begs the question of whether it is safe (in a terrorism sense) to have bins on trains then.

The thing I find disgusting is the discarded used tissues left on floors, seats, tables etc. What with Norovirus being so easily spread where crowds of people gather, you'd think they would make some provision for safe disposal of germ-laden hankies.

 

[Pumbaa]

Trains are also inconsistent: 350/1 - bins, 350/2 - no bins.
On-train cleaning these days is excellent, on VT and ATW at least.
But many commuter services are just left to swim in litter.

Err, yes bins on 350/2! Same number as 350/1, just tucked away between seat backs.

 

[Mojo]

Begs the question of whether it is safe (in a terrorism sense) to have bins on trains then.

During the Olympics and Paralympics the bins were all sealed up on Highspeed's Class 395s, however the bins in the toilets were still left in service, presumably for hygiene reasons.

 

[jon0844]

Begs the question of whether it is safe (in a terrorism sense) to have bins on trains then.

The thing I find disgusting is the discarded used tissues left on floors, seats, tables etc. What with Norovirus being so easily spread where crowds of people gather, you'd think they would make some provision for safe disposal of germ-laden hankies.

What's wrong with using the bins on the trains? If people aren't using them now, what provisions would you suggest?

One idea might be small plastic bag 'bins' at each table, as I've seen used on Sweden and Danish trains. Each table has them underneath. Once a bin is full, you (or staff) tear it off and use another.

Oh, wait, you'd just find all of them torn off and thrown all over the place here.

In all of the above cases, it's the passenger not the train operator at fault.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Err, yes bins on 350/2! Same number as 350/1, just tucked away between seat backs.

I must have misssed them!
Not that even the 350/1 ones are very capacious.
I'll have a look on my next outing.

 

[Pumbaa]

[Off-topic] I note the real life series on BBC2 has continued, with a behind the scenes look at the NHS filling the same slot on Tuesdays at 9pm. Far more gripping I have to say! [/Off-topic]

 

[jon0844]

As most people don't know as much about the NHS, it will be interesting to see how people take that - given they won't necessarily spot the mistakes and selective editing...

 

[Pumbaa]

I was wondering if on the Health Connect forum there's a similar thread to this one!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Haven't seen it, but if they want a proper insight to the NHS they need to watch 3 hours of commissioners arguing over whether they can save a penny a patient if they buy the blue ECG dots than the red ones.

 

[Eng274]

I wonder if the (alleged) practice of departmental protectionism will be hinted at or even exposed, that is so wasteful of money?

A work colleague of mine once told me that her sister was told to do some online shopping during a work day, on the work laptop, because there was literally nothing for her to do. It turned out later that she had been brought in under a vague job role pretence to occupy a manager's budget to stop that manager's budget being diminished.

If people think the railway is wasteful, they need to have a look at the 'elf service. PS I'm not for a minute aiming any criticism at the men and women at the front line..

 

[jon0844]

I've seen the best and worst of the NHS in the same hospital. I have no doubt that there are loads of things that are broken and that a lot of the problems aren't just down to management but incompetent staff (including doctors and nurses).

However, politically, you're not allowed to DARE suggest that a nurse, doctor, teacher or police officer might be anything but 100% professional.

With my wife working for a local authority, I am sure I could post lots of things on here that probably wouldn't actually surprise a lot of people - but I won't as she'd go mental!!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The NHS isn't anymore wasteful than any other healthcare system. By nature of the work, the NHS will always need more money than it has.

The problem is the many, many layers of management and control, that results in stupid situations where, out of my trust's annual budget of £280 million a certain percentage *has* to be handed back at the end of the financial year as a result of the SLA's created in partnership with the PCTs. My trust exists because the Strategic Health Authority chooses each year to commission it to do the work we do. As a result f Hunt's new bill, that contract could easily pass to a private company, and trust me, you don't want that. There are some great private health services, but there are also some real cowboys.

At the moment we are having to make £53 million worth of savings each financial year (despite the government saying they won't cut the NHS!). Any money that isn't spent is used for those savings.

There's the same percentage of incompetent staff as there are in any other industry. There will always be idiots. However, like Jon's wife's LA, there are loads of examples of stuff that goes on because of cost cutting and the fact there just isn't the money available. Some of it affects patient care directly, some of it affects my safety directly.

 

[Oswyntail]

....However, politically, you're not allowed to DARE suggest that a nurse, doctor, teacher or police officer might be anything but 100% professional.....

And then you get Mid-Staffs, Cheethams, Hillsborough....All professions have their good members and bad members - yes, even MPs, Bankers, Priests, Solicitors, Estate Agents, or Health Service Managers. Whisper it not, but some members of the armed forces may not be heroes.
Dang it all, on this forum you are not allowed to criticise guards:roll:
The world would be a better place if we looked at the people, not the uniform, and made our judgements on what people actually do rather than what their job title is.

 

[jon0844]

One thing that would help is the ending of the unofficial rule that you always look out for your colleagues even if you know they're no good.

People are turning a blind eye to things in every profession on a daily basis.

 

[richw]

Some of the waste at the NHS isn't their fault. My gran needed to go in a care home, social services kept her in hospital for 7 weeks first. When we started questioning social services why when we knew her care home place was secured, their answer was "its not our budget keeping her in hospital" we passed this comment to the ward matron, who had words with social services, and my gran was moved the same day to her care home. She has high level dementia and the hospital deemed she needs 24 hr specialist care.

 

[trainophile]

I have to say that if some of the hospital patients and visitors are anything like some of the travelling public, looking after them would be far from an easy task!

 

[pinguini]

I have to say that if some of the hospital patients and visitors are anything like some of the travelling public, looking after them would be far from an easy task!

Oh believe me, they have it FAR worse than railway staff.

 

[455driver]

Oh believe me, they have it FAR worse than railway staff.

I take it you have done both jobs then! :roll:

You really havent got a clue have you, in a hospital you will have at least 4 or 5 people on the ward plus security a phone call away, on a train it is the guard (on his own) against a bunch of drunks etc!

You are a troll trying to wind up the staff on here and I claim my £5.

 

[jon0844]

I hope this isn't going to turn into a debate like what an airline pilot does vs a train driver vs a bus driver...

I think ANYONE on the front line is at risk from a range of things and you can't really 'rate' them. I would say that while security might be in the building, chances are that could still be some distance away and even then - they're not the same as the police that a guard on a train would be seeking to call.

On the last train I was on where it all kicked off, other passengers helped out and there was an also an off duty police officer the came along.. which might not necessarily happen with other patients.

Swings and roundabouts..

 

[ralphchadkirk]

You really havent got a clue have you, in a hospital you will have at least 4 or 5 people on the ward plus security a phone call away, on a train it is the guard (on his own) against a bunch of drunks etc!

It is you that doesn't have a clue. All health service staff work in hospitals do they? All NHS premises have security do they? Absolute and total rubbish.

Perhaps try doing the job before commenting on it?

I'm sure guards are at risk of assaults. I wouldn't like to be a train guard at midnight, with a train full of drunks and on my own. But to try and claim that they are the only workers at risk of assaults ever is stupid.

 

[jon0844]

A very good point. Think of all the NHS staff out doing home visits! And our local surgery doesn't have security that I know of (maybe a panic button under the counter?).

When I worked for Haringey Council (Housing & Social Services) the reception area had high counters but when a social worker was seeing a person/couple/family, they were on their own. There was a panic alarm strip around the wall and the only help was from us on the first floor that came rushing down - fortunately always to find it was a kid that pressed it accidentally.

If anything serious happened, we'd be having to call and wait for the police like everyone else. I'd hope that when staff are under attack on the railway, BTP don't ignore it and locals would assist if necessary.

 

[pinguini]

I take it you have done both jobs then! :roll:

You really havent got a clue have you, in a hospital you will have at least 4 or 5 people on the ward plus security a phone call away, on a train it is the guard (on his own) against a bunch of drunks etc!

You are a troll trying to wind up the staff on here and I claim my £5.

Thats like me telling you that all railway staff work at a station with security and BTP a phone call away. You sir are the troll and haven't got a clue.

Not all NHS staff work in an oh so safe and secure hospital (as you seem to think they are) and many work out in the field dealing with crack addicts and drunks (and not just the loud merry and occasionaly a little vomit-ey on the train drunk, but seriously violent or so in danger needing paramedic attention drunk) as the majority of their 'customers'. My sister, a paramedic, frequently has to wait inside a vehicle whilst waiting for police assistance before dealing with her 'customers'.

 

[Flamingo]

Read this survey for Scotland, the number of Public Sector workers assaulted, http://www.unison-scotland.org.uk/safety/ViolenceAtWorkSurveyOctober2012.pdf
Local Government: 14274, Health Service 10974, Police & Fire Service 9261.