• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

BBC News Article - Rail industry urges workers not to spurn the train

Status
Not open for further replies.

Peregrine 4903

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2019
Messages
1,456
Location
London
In what sense are they "doing the best"?

Commuting traffic and season ticket sales are down significantly in the South East. I find it hard to believe Anglia, who have significant commuter flows from Essex and Suffolk into Liverpool Street/Stratford, would be immune.
Andrew Haines on a podcast recently implied they were doing the best, but I think that was a combination of performance and revenue so I doubt they are doing 100% the best in terms of revenue, but he did sort of imply that they were.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

irish_rail

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2013
Messages
3,876
Location
Plymouth
Interesting thread.

My personal experiences of rail travel post lockdown (as an employee and passenger) areas follows:

Commuting into regional cities seems to be coming back quicker than commuting into London. I took over a peak time train that had arrived into New Street for its contra-peak working and was pleasantly surprised at the number of passengers who alighted. Meanwhile, the trains I've worked into London in the morning peak have still been relatively quiet.

Having recently visited London and Liverpool recently I would say that Liverpool seems like a bustling city whilst London appears to be more of a ghost town.

As for what the railway needs to do to attract passengers, I would suggest the following:

1) Scrap the IETs. I had the misfortune to use two of them last weekend for the first time and am disappointed that the poor reception these trains have received is fully justified. The seats are woefully uncomfortable and make me thankful that I no longer live in the West Country. I was only on the IET for 25 minutes per journey and my back is still recovering. The only good thing about these trains is the traffic light system for identifying un/reserved seats. Seriously, they are the least comfortable trains I have ever been on, with the exception of the Vale of Rheiddol!

2) Replace the M-F, Saturday, and Sunday schedules with an all week Saturday frequency but with M-F start and finish times (Sunday start times might have to be later to allow for engineering works)

3) Simplify the fares structure so that split ticketing is not necessary and remove operator specific tickets for short journeys, e.g. Wolverhampton / New Street / Coventry, Liverpool - Runcorn , etc
You suggest scrapping the 80xs however with a decent seat and re introduction of a buffet and lengthening some of the 5 car sets they are not terrible. Certainly not scrap worthy yet.
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
Andrew Haines on a podcast recently implied they were doing the best, but I think that was a combination of performance and revenue so I doubt they are doing 100% the best in terms of revenue, but he did sort of imply that they were.
I see. Perhaps they were the least affected amongst NSE operators. I can possibly believe that, yes.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
There's a lot to digest here, and it feels too early to come up with "solutions" - there are a number of industries where I wouldn't want to take a bet on how demand patterns will solidify - e.g. childcare (we've gone from thousands of people working as childminders/ nannies or providing "wrap around" cover at schools to permit parents to drop the kids off at 08:00 and collect them at 18:00 - but with so many people working from home/ furlough/ unemployed, there's a lot less need to pay someone else to look after your kids - even if that means you working on your laptop in one room whilst your child is sat watching Peppa Pig on another laptop!)

People will blame the industry set up but nobody was predicting Covid, we'd managed to see rail growth despite the global recession that had much bigger and longer term repercussions than the much shorter/localised ones that BR lost a lot of passenger numbers in - I can see why people assumed that the railway was bulletproof

Without getting too political, there has been an active choice of successive governments to move the cost of running the railway from the taxpayer to the farepayer.

There has certainly been an attempt to limit subsidy to no more than half of costs, but serious questions ought to be asked about why the railway industry couldn't reduce subsidies despite the huge growth in passenger numbers over the past generation - I'm not trying to turn this into a privatisation/nationalisation argument, just pointing out that the reduction in subsidies wouldn't have been so much of a problem if we'd been able to keep costs in check

However, I think that the fact that the Government were always going to bail things out meant that there was never an incentive to keep things fit for purpose

Try taking away the local rail service and I suspect you'll find its every bit as contentious as trying to close the local school or hospital.

I'm sure there'd be petitions on Facebook and a few pictures of angry councillors in local newspapers

But the point is that passenger numbers are a third of what they were (despite so many Forum members seeming to point out just how busy their trains have been!) - people would be upset to lose a rail service in the way that they would be upset to lose that pub that they drink in once or twice a year

Even before Covid, the railway was an irrelevance to most people, only 10% used it often

What is the right balance though? As I said above, running the full service with less passenger demand just isn't sustainable. TfL had to do this and (yes they have other issues) rapidly ran out of money. Some TOCs have cut too much but others have been more marginal. Also different TOCs have different types of users; a heavily commuter based railway (that used to cover many of its costs) will probably have more suppressed demand going forward than an operator that has seen higher leisure travellers.

It's a bit of a broken record but demand-wise there's still a lot of "let's wait and see" as travelling patterns still haven't stabilised.

It's going to be hard for the railway to adjust to demand, given that:

1. We don't know what future Covid restrictions will be (do we assume a continual reduction in restrictions or that the UK will have a few more bumps in the road)
2. The railway takes a long time to set new timetables and adjust
3. It's fine for bus companies to change a service from every ten minutes to every twelve minutes to every fifteen minutes then back to every twelve minutes depending on demand, but train services can't be tweaked so easily - you might want to thin out a service but it's not as simple as changing a fifteen minute service into a twenty minute service because that might conflict with other services at junctions etc, so you might remove a quarter of services whilst keeping the other 75% but then that leaves half hour gaps - not ideal!

On the brightside, it sounds like overcrowding won't be as much of a problem.

I wonder what next year's list of Most Crowded Services will be - will the highest get above 75% of seating (rather than 150%!)

I did say I don't think the railways have a good repuation. But then again you do also have to consider that someone that had a good journey isn't going to tweet about it.

I don't know that the railways ever had a "good" reputation amongst the British public, certainly in my lifetime - it's generally something that people use because they have to - for every wide-eyed tourist on the Settle & Carlisle there are thousands of miserable commuters who only used the train because they had to

Agreed. We’ve read on here how people will still keep coming to the railway no matter what, so things like uncomfortable seats or crowded off-peak trains weren’t anything for the industry to be bothered about addressing.

That's true - we've had things like the boom in house prices forcing people to commute distances like Didcot to London because they were priced out of "Zone 4" - so little need to fight for passengers when you're so busy (in fact, you sometimes needed to price the off)

Ironically, the privatised railway was doing that rather well in the late 1990s and 2000s. It’s only since the DFT started micromanaging that things went downhill.

Agreed - we'll look back on that period as a "golden era" (before the DfT got their fingers into things)

1) Scrap the IETs. I had the misfortune to use two of them last weekend for the first time and am disappointed that the poor reception these trains have received is fully justified.

Some of the complaints are justified, some are highly subjective from "seat people", some complaints have turned out to be complete wibble (e.g. I remember the arguments on here that the slope needed to permit the underfloor engines would be so steep that trolleys couldn't pass along the train and passengers wouldn't be able to get beyond the first couple of seats)
 

Peregrine 4903

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2019
Messages
1,456
Location
London
I'm sure there'd be petitions on Facebook and a few pictures of angry councillors in local newspapers

But the point is that passenger numbers are a third of what they were (despite so many Forum members seeming to point out just how busy their trains have been!) - people would be upset to lose a rail service in the way that they would be upset to lose that pub that they drink in once or twice a year

Even before Covid, the railway was an irrelevance to most people, only 10% used it often
Usage is at 60% of pre covid, so nearly two thirds and is steadily rising. Revenue will be behind that obviously, but that will be rising too.

EDIT: Quoted the wrong thing by accident
 

WestRiding

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2012
Messages
1,014
Usage is at 60% of pre covid, so nearly two thirds and is steadily rising. Revenue will be behind that obviously, but that will be rising too.

EDIT: Quoted the wrong thing by accident
That did confuse me. Different outlets saying different levels of useage. I had read 60% somewhere.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
Usage is at 60% of pre covid, so nearly two thirds and is steadily rising. Revenue will be behind that obviously, but that will be rising too.

EDIT: Quoted the wrong thing by accident

I was just going with the OP quote that "Train commuting is still just 33% of its pre-Covid rate, while car journeys have reached pre-pandemic levels, said the Rail Delivery Group (RDG)"

Obviously there's a difference between "commuting" and "overall passenger numbers", and I fully appreciate that leisure demand will have bounced back differently (and that some "leisure" lines will have been boosted whilst thousands of people sacrificed their annual Mediterranean holiday for one in the UK) - I was just agues with the idea that there'd be huge resistance to cutting train services (given that passenger numbers are down)

But, whilst the "commuting" passengers only affected a fe hours a day, they'll have counted for a disproportionate amount of revenue, and that we used to rely on that to cross-subsidise other services. Remove that lucrative commuter income and we lose a lot of money that propped up "leisure" services - so even if "leisure" passengers are 100% of what they once were, they needed the revenue from other services to keep them going
 
Joined
5 May 2015
Messages
66
Location
Dunblane
Can anyone explain why there is now a gap in excess of 2 hours 30 minutes in southbound services leaving Inverness? There is a service at 14.50 followed by the next one at 17.27, which is hardly indicative of a company wishing to provide a public service and encouraging a greater use of rail.

If I recall correctly, a year ago there used to be an intermediate service at 15.53 (or thereabouts) which was well-used.
 

irish_rail

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2013
Messages
3,876
Location
Plymouth
Ironically, the privatised railway was doing that rather well in the late 1990s and 2000s. It’s only since the DFT started micromanaging that things went downhill.
The procurement of the Virgin voyager fleet at the turn of the century would rather go against that view. A train designed to be like an aircraft and with insufficient seats. And from what I have read this was very much all Virgins doing and not the DFt. We are still suffering the legacy of these trains today, the length and breadth of the country.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,824
Location
Yorkshire
I have created a thread for people to discuss how rail could be made more attractive, which can be found here:


To discuss working from home please use the following thread:

 

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
2,692
The procurement of the Virgin voyager fleet at the turn of the century would rather go against that view. A train designed to be like an aircraft and with insufficient seats. And from what I have read this was very much all Virgins doing and not the DFt. We are still suffering the legacy of these trains today, the length and breadth of the country.

Apart from the bit where Virgin later wanted to lengthen the Voyagers after seeing how popular they were and the SRA refused…
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
Apart from the bit where Virgin later wanted to lengthen the Voyagers after seeing how popular they were and the SRA refused…

Alternative take: SRA wouldn't fund a bailout of Virgin's miscalculations.

(At the time, HSTs came back into use on a seasonal basis instead IIRC)
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
7,578
Location
London
I was just going with the OP quote that "Train commuting is still just 33% of its pre-Covid rate, while car journeys have reached pre-pandemic levels, said the Rail Delivery Group (RDG)"

Obviously there's a difference between "commuting" and "overall passenger numbers", and I fully appreciate that leisure demand will have bounced back differently (and that some "leisure" lines will have been boosted whilst thousands of people sacrificed their annual Mediterranean holiday for one in the UK) - I was just agues with the idea that there'd be huge resistance to cutting train services (given that passenger numbers are down)

But, whilst the "commuting" passengers only affected a fe hours a day, they'll have counted for a disproportionate amount of revenue, and that we used to rely on that to cross-subsidise other services. Remove that lucrative commuter income and we lose a lot of money that propped up "leisure" services - so even if "leisure" passengers are 100% of what they once were, they needed the revenue from other services to keep them going

I think this is a key point that lots of people haven’t yet grasped. Commuting will never return to 100% of pre-pandemic levels and personally, I don’t think it will top 75%.

Leisure might be doing well know but we can be pretty sure it’s inflated by a reluctance to still go abroad. Okay some of those people might become “staycation converts” but we have to take this as a bumper year.

This leaves a real gap in revenues which is going to need more bums on seats (sorting the peak threshold out for instance) or cutting of costs in some manner.
 

MichaelAMW

Member
Joined
18 Jun 2010
Messages
1,012
But, whilst the "commuting" passengers only affected a fe hours a day, they'll have counted for a disproportionate amount of revenue, and that we used to rely on that to cross-subsidise other services. Remove that lucrative commuter income and we lose a lot of money that propped up "leisure" services - so even if "leisure" passengers are 100% of what they once were, they needed the revenue from other services to keep them going
But bear in mind that commuters on annual seasons get a heavy discount, so it's their numbers not their fares that provide the income - in principle, growing numbers elsewhere could compensate. My random exmple using BR Fares: a commuter from Basingstoke breaks even on the cheap day return if they travel 4 days a week for 45 weeks of the year. I should add that I appreciate the comparison gets less favourable the shorter the journey: if you lived in Weybridge then an annual isn't quite worth it if you have a strictly 4-day week and have barely any holiday (and you are comparing with the off-peak return - it breaks even at 29 5-day weeks when compared with the rush-hour return).
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
I think this is a key point that lots of people haven’t yet grasped. Commuting will never return to 100% of pre-pandemic levels and personally, I don’t think it will top 75%.

For people who've worked absolutely fine from home for the last 18 months, I still don't get how, unless their employers is giving them no choice, anybody now reasonably expects them to turn up and hand over £5,000+ at their local Home Counties station for the privilege of spending 90/120 minutes on trains every single day in addition to their working hours.

Why would any rational person (who is able and willing to WFH, as many people are adjusted to now, but not everybody) go back to doing that every single day?

That's why some commuters will return daily (who do want to be in the office, or have to be), but some will only return partially.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
7,578
Location
London
For people who've worked absolutely fine from home for the last 18 months, I still don't get how, unless their employers is giving them no choice, anybody now reasonably expects them to turn up and hand over £5,000+ at their local Home Counties station for the privilege of spending 90/120 minutes on trains every single day in addition to their working hours.

Why would any rational person (who is able and willing to WFH, as many people are adjusted to now, but not everybody) go back to doing that every single day?

Well exactly. I think the article is well intentioned - especially if it asks people to return to the train rather than car for commuting which implies they were doing it before - but this all assumes people will be doing any commuting. If we take 100 pre-pandemic, M-F commuters, there’s no way they’ll all be returning 5 days a week.

The real battle is versus WFH and that’s a social / cultural shift and one the railway simply cannot win.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
Well exactly. I think the article is well intentioned - especially if it asks people to return to the train rather than car for commuting which implies they were doing it before - but this all assumes people will be doing any commuting. If we take 100 pre-pandemic, M-F commuters, there’s no way they’ll all be returning 5 days a week.

The real battle is versus WFH and that’s a social / cultural shift and one the railway simply cannot win.

I think there is a good message of "if you are going into the office for the day, give the train a try again". Just to build that mass of ridership up again.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
7,578
Location
London
I think there is a good message of "if you are going into the office for the day, give the train a try again". Just to build that mass of ridership up again.

Yes but as others have mentioned the marginal cost of that gets higher if you’ve no longer got a season ticket. A peak / anytime fare being what it currently is doesn’t make rail an attractive option at that time if you’re only doing it 2 days a week and you’ve got a car. Of course there’s lot of caveats around that (London parking costs & traffic anyone?) but others towns / cities may not have such a dilemma.
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,089
On the brightside, it sounds like overcrowding won't be as much of a problem.
It may well still be, as TOCs send out 2-car units and keep the rest of the stock in the depot. As already seem happening in various places, with various excuses.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,942
I doubt there will be a quick return to the office if ever. Predictions of 60ish% return to pre-pandemic levels seem optimistic to me especially as most won't travel five days a week. Therefore services will need to be modified to match demand.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,771
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
I think there is a good message of "if you are going into the office for the day, give the train a try again". Just to build that mass of ridership up again.

So let’s say someone on the GN route does exactly that.

Firstly they will of course find large numbers of services deleted from the timetable compared to March 2020. I can’t remember if there’s any 12-car 387 working resumed now, but that largely vanished (February, wasn’t it?). Then on top of that they’re likely to find cancellations, often not just one but strings of them in a row.

Meanwhile, over the summer it would have been fairly common to find certain services stuffed full of leisure users. A nice peaceful car journey to work, or a train with kids running up and down coughing and spluttering?

I’m not sure “give us a try” is that helpful at the moment. Most times recently when I’ve taken the train I’ve decided to revert to using the car.
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
7,455
Location
UK
Well exactly. I think the article is well intentioned - especially if it asks people to return to the train rather than car for commuting which implies they were doing it before - but this all assumes people will be doing any commuting. If we take 100 pre-pandemic, M-F commuters, there’s no way they’ll all be returning 5 days a week.

The real battle is versus WFH and that’s a social / cultural shift and one the railway simply cannot win.

Then why is car use near 100% of pre pandemic levels. If people did stop commuting then you would see a drop in car use as well.
The amount of commuters has increased significantly this month from my observations on the roads.


This thread is a very interesting read from a commuter standpoint: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=1950862
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
7,578
Location
London
So let’s say someone on the GN route does exactly that.

Firstly they will of course find large numbers of services deleted from the timetable compared to March 2020. I can’t remember if there’s any 12-car 387 working resumed now, but that largely vanished (February, wasn’t it?). Then on top of that they’re likely to find cancellations, often not just one but strings of them in a row.

Meanwhile, over the summer it would have been fairly common to find certain services stuffed full of leisure users. A nice peaceful car journey to work, or a train with kids running up and down coughing and spluttering?

I’m not sure “give us a try” is that helpful at the moment. Most times recently when I’ve taken the train I’ve decided to revert to using the car.

It's also likely to be geographically disparate. As a Londonder that doesn't own a car and that has generally had a good suburban service throughout the pandemic, I (and many colleagues / friends) have seen absoutely no need to use other modes.

Then why is car use near 100% of pre pandemic levels. If people did stop commuting then you would see a drop in car use as well.
The amount of commuters has increased significantly this month from my observations on the roads.

I'm not saying there's not an element of that. But car usage is a lot more varied in terms of its usage (the school run, family visits, supermarkets etc.) and many rail users are also car drivers. In the Home Counties > London (a considerable chunk of UK rail revenues pre-pandemic), I sincerely doubt many would be swapping the train for the car; but they won't be buying seasons anymore as WFH grows. As I said in other cities / towns, there may well be a more significant switch.

The last month has also seen an uptick in commuter flows by public transport, albeit perhaps not as pronounced. Also consider that as traffic returns to 100% of pre-pandemic levels, this will actually be another incentive to get people back out of cars again if their journey ends up no quicker and more stressful.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,011
Location
Yorks
Then why is car use near 100% of pre pandemic levels. If people did stop commuting then you would see a drop in car use as well.
The amount of commuters has increased significantly this month from my observations on the roads.


This thread is a very interesting read from a commuter standpoint: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=1950862
Unless that's 100% car use for peak commuter journeys, they're not comparing like with like.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,045
Location
North Wales
Lets reopen Coal Mines to create rail traffic! It wont happen.Rail Industry needs to adapt to WFH which is the new way of working.
My silly brain is now wondering what the railway can do to help coal miners work from home... :)
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
So let’s say someone on the GN route does exactly that.

Firstly they will of course find large numbers of services deleted from the timetable compared to March 2020. I can’t remember if there’s any 12-car 387 working resumed now, but that largely vanished (February, wasn’t it?). Then on top of that they’re likely to find cancellations, often not just one but strings of them in a row.

Meanwhile, over the summer it would have been fairly common to find certain services stuffed full of leisure users. A nice peaceful car journey to work, or a train with kids running up and down coughing and spluttering?

I’m not sure “give us a try” is that helpful at the moment. Most times recently when I’ve taken the train I’ve decided to revert to using the car.

Leisure travel will be easing up now with the return to school.

My 0747 Cambridge-Liverpool Street yesterday was barely a third full, on a 5 cat 720.

The 0739 Kings Cross (8-car) fast departed with about 25% of seats available.

Passengers returning in trading commuting times will generally not be finding even close to crowded conditions, particularly in the "Home Counties" market.

Weekends are a mess cancellation-wise, but weekdays seem to be much less affected.
 

Peter Sarf

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
5,699
Location
Croydon
There's a lot to digest here, and it feels too early to come up with "solutions" - there are a number of industries where I wouldn't want to take a bet on how demand patterns will solidify - e.g. childcare (we've gone from thousands of people working as childminders/ nannies or providing "wrap around" cover at schools to permit parents to drop the kids off at 08:00 and collect them at 18:00 - but with so many people working from home/ furlough/ unemployed, there's a lot less need to pay someone else to look after your kids - even if that means you working on your laptop in one room whilst your child is sat watching Peppa Pig on another laptop!)

People will blame the industry set up but nobody was predicting Covid, we'd managed to see rail growth despite the global recession that had much bigger and longer term repercussions than the much shorter/localised ones that BR lost a lot of passenger numbers in - I can see why people assumed that the railway was bulletproof



There has certainly been an attempt to limit subsidy to no more than half of costs, but serious questions ought to be asked about why the railway industry couldn't reduce subsidies despite the huge growth in passenger numbers over the past generation - I'm not trying to turn this into a privatisation/nationalisation argument, just pointing out that the reduction in subsidies wouldn't have been so much of a problem if we'd been able to keep costs in check

However, I think that the fact that the Government were always going to bail things out meant that there was never an incentive to keep things fit for purpose



I'm sure there'd be petitions on Facebook and a few pictures of angry councillors in local newspapers

But the point is that passenger numbers are a third of what they were (despite so many Forum members seeming to point out just how busy their trains have been!) - people would be upset to lose a rail service in the way that they would be upset to lose that pub that they drink in once or twice a year

Even before Covid, the railway was an irrelevance to most people, only 10% used it often



It's going to be hard for the railway to adjust to demand, given that:

1. We don't know what future Covid restrictions will be (do we assume a continual reduction in restrictions or that the UK will have a few more bumps in the road)
2. The railway takes a long time to set new timetables and adjust
3. It's fine for bus companies to change a service from every ten minutes to every twelve minutes to every fifteen minutes then back to every twelve minutes depending on demand, but train services can't be tweaked so easily - you might want to thin out a service but it's not as simple as changing a fifteen minute service into a twenty minute service because that might conflict with other services at junctions etc, so you might remove a quarter of services whilst keeping the other 75% but then that leaves half hour gaps - not ideal!



I wonder what next year's list of Most Crowded Services will be - will the highest get above 75% of seating (rather than 150%!)



I don't know that the railways ever had a "good" reputation amongst the British public, certainly in my lifetime - it's generally something that people use because they have to - for every wide-eyed tourist on the Settle & Carlisle there are thousands of miserable commuters who only used the train because they had to



That's true - we've had things like the boom in house prices forcing people to commute distances like Didcot to London because they were priced out of "Zone 4" - so little need to fight for passengers when you're so busy (in fact, you sometimes needed to price the off)



Agreed - we'll look back on that period as a "golden era" (before the DfT got their fingers into things)



Some of the complaints are justified, some are highly subjective from "seat people", some complaints have turned out to be complete wibble (e.g. I remember the arguments on here that the slope needed to permit the underfloor engines would be so steep that trolleys couldn't pass along the train and passengers wouldn't be able to get beyond the first couple of seats)
Actually for many the railways are a dirty word or at best an irrelevence. That has been the case for decades or centuries.

On the simplistic side the railways only have to get their 10% back. So to get the same numbers of travelers that will be 20% of all commuters if commuting generally declines by 50% across all modes. So rail has to be more attractive until everyone returns to commuting. But I think working from home to a greater or lesser extent is here to stay. So gone are the days of hugh demand.

Things to do to improve commuting levels.
1) Make services more reliable (probably be having slightly less)
2) Comfort (80X - I am looking at you)
3) Reliability or at least bettor information at times of disruption.
4) Drum up the ecological benefits and/or discourage less ecological travel.
For people who've worked absolutely fine from home for the last 18 months, I still don't get how, unless their employers is giving them no choice, anybody now reasonably expects them to turn up and hand over £5,000+ at their local Home Counties station for the privilege of spending 90/120 minutes on trains every single day in addition to their working hours.

Why would any rational person (who is able and willing to WFH, as many people are adjusted to now, but not everybody) go back to doing that every single day?

That's why some commuters will return daily (who do want to be in the office, or have to be), but some will only return partially.
You make me think. The internet has a lot to be blamed for - loss of retail and decline of public transport. Has Covid just speeded up the inevitable ?.

Your example reminds me of how I decided to give up commuting for less pay and more free time. I had got my mortgage by then !. Worse still that £5,000 season ticket you refer to actually equates to at least £6,250 before Tax !. For at least 10 hours/week or 520 hours per year of torture. That is how I used to work it out.
Well exactly. I think the article is well intentioned - especially if it asks people to return to the train rather than car for commuting which implies they were doing it before - but this all assumes people will be doing any commuting. If we take 100 pre-pandemic, M-F commuters, there’s no way they’ll all be returning 5 days a week.

The real battle is versus WFH and that’s a social / cultural shift and one the railway simply cannot win.
I do wonder/worry how large the proprtion of commuting demand will be for less than five days a week ?. Probably quite a lot.
So let’s say someone on the GN route does exactly that.

Firstly they will of course find large numbers of services deleted from the timetable compared to March 2020. I can’t remember if there’s any 12-car 387 working resumed now, but that largely vanished (February, wasn’t it?). Then on top of that they’re likely to find cancellations, often not just one but strings of them in a row.

Meanwhile, over the summer it would have been fairly common to find certain services stuffed full of leisure users. A nice peaceful car journey to work, or a train with kids running up and down coughing and spluttering?

I’m not sure “give us a try” is that helpful at the moment. Most times recently when I’ve taken the train I’ve decided to revert to using the car.
My fear is that the obvious reaction to a temporary loss of demand will result in rail commuting looking less attractive. We might be seeing the undoing of many decades of incremental service improvements.
Then why is car use near 100% of pre pandemic levels. If people did stop commuting then you would see a drop in car use as well.
The amount of commuters has increased significantly this month from my observations on the roads.


This thread is a very interesting read from a commuter standpoint: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=1950862
I think most will favour their cars. When / if the roads fill up then the railways will pick up.
 

sd0733

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2012
Messages
3,604
You make me think. The internet has a lot to be blamed for - loss of retail and decline of public transport. Has Covid just speeded up the inevitable ?.
I'm not sure I agree with that point of view. In my view the internet helps public transport massively, firstly the fact of a few clicks.can plan a journey, book a ticket and a seat etc has made it more accessible than ever before, just walking through checking tickets now a good 80% are on some sort of e tickets.

Also, the internet is actually a bit of a selling point to rail and public transport, playing on your phone browsing internet sites, Ebay, Instagram, Facebook whatever can't be done whilst driving and as more and more people like to be connected all the time it's a benefit of not driving that people can do
I think most will favour their cars. When / if the roads fill up then the railways will pick up.
That is almost certainly true, when congestion and lack of parking are again an issue then passenger numbers will begin to rise quicker than when roads were empty and city centre driving wasnt as stressful.
 

Peter Sarf

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
5,699
Location
Croydon
I'm not sure I agree with that point of view. In my view the internet helps public transport massively, firstly the fact of a few clicks.can plan a journey, book a ticket and a seat etc has made it more accessible than ever before, just walking through checking tickets now a good 80% are on some sort of e tickets.

Also, the internet is actually a bit of a selling point to rail and public transport, playing on your phone browsing internet sites, Ebay, Instagram, Facebook whatever can't be done whilst driving and as more and more people like to be connected all the time it's a benefit of not driving that people can do

That is almost certainly true, when congestion and lack of parking are again an issue then passenger numbers will begin to rise quicker than when roads were empty and city centre driving wasnt as stressful.
You right. Public transport does favour the connected ones. That is both for web browsing and working on the laptop. Got one over air travel on that one I suppose.

Anothetr improvement required - better seats to allow spacing + tables for laptops.
 

WestRiding

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2012
Messages
1,014
It may be a question for another thread. But. If everyone is so confident that people will not return to the railway, then why are projects still getting the go-ahead and/or planned. If I held the wallet for railway investment, I would not be allowing money to be spent. Wigan/Bolton Electrification, MML Electrification. HS2 to Manchester, and even small stuff like station reopening, and new halts, like Magna in Sheffield. I just wouldn't be investing.

Why the investment in what is clearly a failure of an industry, to read this forum anyway?

(can't help wondering as an aside, if anyone here actually, genuinely believes the railway is needed anymore. A thoroughly depressing read this has been)

And as has benn touched upon, if everyone is staying at home to work blaa blaa blaa, why are the roads so busy? Travelling to York evry day, at 'peak' times for commencement of my 12 hour nights shifts, the roads are busier than I have ever known them, since commuting there, since 2016.

What I have noticed is, there is no pattern. My local station, Fitzwilliam, the car park is near as damn it full again when I've used it. Yet the car park at York, is empty in comparison. No pattern what so ever. Maybe rail companies will have to get a grip on car park charges. I often park at Sheffield, another still empty car park. But then it costs £20 per day to park, on top of your ticket. It's more expensive than airport parking. Of course its too late to rectify now, since Midland Mainline sold it off to Q Park.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top