BBC reporting near collision at Syston South

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38Cto15E

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BBC East Midlands TV news tonight said there had been a near collision at Syston South junction yesterday, one train was doing 75mph the other reversing.
I know there were big delays on the MML between Leicester and Loughborough because of signal problems.
Maybe some BMs can add more.
 
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GadgetMan

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If one of those trains was doing anywhere near 75 mph then it would have been a hell of a lot more serious than a near miss.

From what I understand, both trains were traveling at a reduce(ing)d speed and came to a stand a fair distance apart.

Complete over reaction for NR to then cause the amount of chaos they did.
 

GadgetMan

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Except one of them also ran through a set of points...

Points should have been clipped asap with trains on unaffected lines allowed to move. However they brought everything on that panel to a stand for a ridiculous amount of time.
 

Class377/5

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I doubt many on here know the full story but not surprised at the delay amount.
 

TheBigD

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Originally posted on http://fourfooteightandahalf.com/forum/index.php

1F45 and 1D44 very nearly had a coming together at Syston. 1D44 had been instructed to set back along the Down Fast from Sileby to Syston due to another points failure, but the route was all off for 1F45 to cross over from the DF to DS at Syston. 1D44's driver saw the junction set reverse but couldnt stop and ran through the trailers, and met 1F45 coming the other way. They stopped less than 200 yards apart. Had either driver not been paying full attention, we might be having a very different discussion today. As 5H17 says the RAIB report will make very interesting reading.
 

wensley

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Did seem a rather drawn out recovery, but no risks would be taken under the circumstances! Keeping all of the details out of the public domain would probably be a good idea until investigations are complete...one individual took it upon themselves to post the log entry on a gen group :roll:
 

David

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Suprisingly, there's not much posted about the incident on WNXX, however, 1 person did suggest a few people would be working the 1P45 diagram at somepoint in the future ....
 

GB

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Points should have been clipped asap with trains on unaffected lines allowed to move. However they brought everything on that panel to a stand for a ridiculous amount of time.

How do you clip a set of points with a train standing over them?

This wasn't a complete over reaction from NR, it was (is) a very serious incident that needed proper investigating.
 

Failed Unit

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Originally posted on http://fourfooteightandahalf.com/forum/index.php

1F45 and 1D44 very nearly had a coming together at Syston. 1D44 had been instructed to set back along the Down Fast from Sileby to Syston due to another points failure, but the route was all off for 1F45 to cross over from the DF to DS at Syston. 1D44's driver saw the junction set reverse but couldnt stop and ran through the trailers, and met 1F45 coming the other way. They stopped less than 200 yards apart. Had either driver not been paying full attention, we might be having a very different discussion today. As 5H17 says the RAIB report will make very interesting reading.

For those of us who don't work on the railway what trains were involved?
 

38Cto15E

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Many thanks for the info BigD, I thought it a little strange that nothing about an alledged incident had been posted on Railforums though.
 

Metroland

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1D44 1430 St Pancras International to Nottingham, 1554 from Leicester.
1F45 1455 St Pancras International to Sheffield, around 1602 off Leicester.

A freight train was also involved, this was told to set back into the stone terminal near Sileby and nearly set back into 1D44 stood on the down fast.

NR does seem to have overacted and shut that workstation down for a couple of hours, maybe there was some allegations about the equipment?
 
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Ferret

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What's that supposed to mean in the context of this story?

Well, I assume it means the way they bend a story to fit their own agenda.

In this case, it seems they've decided what speed the trains were doing, because naturally they've had access to the relevant OTMR downloads and have analysed the data accurately themselves.

The Beeb's journalists are just as bad as the tools that write for the Guardian/Mail/Sun and the rest - publish inaccurate piffle which is then lapped up by the masses who either know no better or lack the ability to cast a critical eye on what they're reading.
 

GB

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There is no mention any where of a freight train nearly setting back into 1D44. Not to say it didn't happen but surely that would have been logged?
 

Ferret

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There is no mention any where of a freight train nearly setting back into 1D44. Not to say it didn't happen but surely that would have been logged?

I suspect we'll find out when the RAIB enlighten us. I have to say I'm not convinced though - I've seen no mention anywhere about that.
 

Metroland

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I suppose it's biased because there was several near misses on the M1 the same day, but we don't get to hear about those. Whereas the BBC, like many media organisations like to paint the railways as a death trap given half the chance with rabid management playing fast and loose with profits and safety, and lazy unionised workers that don't give a toss.

Of course operational incidents do happen from time-to-time, as they do on all forms of transport, but I suspect there was little danger of collision and even if there was one it would have been low speed with minor injuries.
 

EM2

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There is no mention any where of a freight train nearly setting back into 1D44. Not to say it didn't happen but surely that would have been logged?
I did see a mention of a freight in the initial incident report, but can't remember the full details. From the way it was phrased, it certainly didn't seem there was a risk of a collision involving that train.
 

whhistle

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I suppose it's biased because there was several near misses on the M1 the same day, but we don't get to hear about those.
Go a bit further in your thoughts and ask why they are not reported.

Madeleine McCann's disappearance for example. Kids go missing every day, most of those aren't reported. Why this one? Even the tiniest of errors at airports get reported too. Take a theme park. Daily ride breakdowns aren't reported by the news, but if one rollercoaster came off the tracks, then it would be all over the place. Why? Because it's [/i]unusual[/i]. Crashes and death happens every day on the motorway, it's not unusual and not really note worthy which is why the BBC et al decide not to bother reporting on it. Trains nearly crashing is unusual.

It's not biased reporting.
You must also remember, reporters aren't experts in anything but reporting. It's not their fault they don't know exactly how trains and the railway works.
 

Skymonster

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There is no mention any where of a freight train nearly setting back into 1D44

Train manager I spoke to on a St Pancras to East Midlands Parkway service that I travelled on later same day said the chaos at St Pancras and down route involved a freight train as well as an EMT service somewhere just north of Leicester (Sileby).

From a passenger perspective it wasn't good though - even six hours after the incident none of the EMT staff at St Pancras or onboard trains had any real idea what was going on in terms of the ongoing running of services. At St Pancras staff were largely telling people to get on a train going north even if it wasn't going where they wanted and telling them to hope there was a connection further down the route, one staff member at St Pancras recommended I go to Kings Cross and get a train to Grantham even though by the time I'd have got to Grantham there'd have been no trains to Nottingham let alone to East Midlands Parkway, there were buses taking passengers from Leicester to Loughborough and East Midlands Parkway at the same as there were delayed trains running (thus wasting passengers time on slow buses), station staff at Leicester (even at 22:30) were clueless about how passengers should go forward from there or what time there might be trains (I got more / better information from the web and from the UK Trains iPhone app than I did from staff), and the buses were held to wait for more passengers for 20 minutes when there were no further trains arriving within that period! I ended being told to take a bus from Leicester to East Midlands Parkway via Loughborough, only to find a later train coming from London had planned stops at Leicester and Loughborough and East Midlands Parkway, and had comfortably beaten the bus to East Midlands Parkway.

Honestly, I think everyone else accepts that investigations have to take place and that means normality might not be resumed as quickly as we might hope, but six hours later??? I don't necessarily expect normality in that timeframe but I think it's reasonable to expect the TOC to have come up with a plan and to have communicated it to all front-line staff in that time. The railway - EMT in this case - still have to lot of work to do to make sure that passengers are managed in the best possible way when the wheels come off the wagon.

Andy

PS: Even though I spent quite a while talking to the train manager, he didn't cancel my ticket and barriers were open at St Pancras. Train manager said delay repay wouldn't apply because it wasn't EMT's fault (really???)... So I guess I could consider reusing my open ticket another day as a self-administered delay-repay!! ;) [JOKE!!! before anyone gets a sense of humour failure about that]
 
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Ferret

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There is a big difference between inaccuracy and bias. I was questioning how reporting a potential near miss was being biased.

Which I attempted to answer by pointing out they've been over-egging the pudding, and very possibly to fit their own agenda. A slow speed near miss is still serious, but not as serious as the BBC attempted to make it sound with talk of 75mph. Let's face it - the BBC are never shy when it comes to putting the boot into the rail industry.
 

EM2

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I was on duty at STP (in fact, I was doing all the announcements) and the advice we gave was to take the first available train to your destination, or to use EC, VT and LM.
I even announced which were the last trains on those routes you could take to get to destinations.
 

Ferret

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It's not biased reporting.
You must also remember, reporters aren't experts in anything but reporting. It's not their fault they don't know exactly how trains and the railway works.

This is the thing though - the BBC has a transport correspondant who does have some knowledge of the industry, which comes across well when he's on camera. It can also do it's own research and talk to people who have a clue. For whatever reason, this journalist chose not to and published a load of guff, read not just here but abroad too. And I'm sorry, but it's just not good enough. I really feel forced to conclude that given it would've taken one phone call to the right person (or just your own common sense) to find out that a train doing 75mph in that area would not have been able to avoid a collision with an oncoming train, that the BBC's journalist has been guilty of over-egging the pudding. And I'm afraid, that as far as I'm concerned, that is both evidence of possible bias against the railway industry, and evidence of very bad journalism.

I really wish Leveson was looking at the overall standards of what is printed by the media in this Country, rather than just focusing on harassment of celebs and phone-hacking. He'd be doing everyone a favour if he shone the spotlight on the guff we are subjected to by supposedly respectable publishers.
 

Tomnick

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...with talk of 75mph.
75mph seems reasonable under the circumstances - the second train would be slowing to 40mph to cross to the Down Slow at Syston South Jn (under flashing yellows - not approach control from red) if the details posted earlier are correct. Obviously as soon as the first train (re)occupied track circuits in the route set for the second, the signals for the latter would return to Danger, giving (in this case) the opportunity for him to stop short. Of course, the RAIB report will tell all!
 

Skymonster

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I was on duty at STP (in fact, I was doing all the announcements) and the advice we gave was to take the first available train to your destination, or to use EC, VT and LM.
I even announced which were the last trains on those routes you could take to get to destinations.

EM2 - I'm sure you were doing the best you could with the information you had available to you. I don't want to appear to be blaming front line staff directly, especially if reality is that functions higher up the food chain aren't providing front line staff with information. All the staff were pretty clued up on ticket restrictions being relaxed and other operators accepting tickets, but were not able to give answers about getting to destination... So I was variously told to:

* Go to Leicester on the next train and "hope" (yes, that was the word used) there's either a train or a bus going to East Midlands Parkway from there - but with the prospect of arriving at Leicester at 23:00 that's not a good answer

* Walk over to Kings Cross and then get a train to Grantham. When I pointed out that the next train to Grantham would arrive after the last train from Grantham to Nottingham had departed and asked whether there'd be road transport provided from Grantham to Nottingham and / or East Midlands Parkway the answer I got was - I don't know

I decided to go to Leicester (train was next stopping at Derby after that) and if push came to shove I'd have to suck up the cost of a taxi from Leicester to East Midlands Parkway... Just that reassurance that there would be onwards transport would have made all the difference.

Andy
 
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