BBC reporting that heritage railways will run out of coal in 2021

[6862]

I've just seen this report on the BBC News website. It seems that the major issue is that British locomotives are designed to run on the kind of coal found in the UK. Could we see modifications to fireboxes and boilers to compensate for the need to use imported coal?

Steam railways 'will run out of coal', industry warns

Heritage attractions are in "jeopardy" amid a shortage of English coal, industry warns.

www.bbc.co.uk

The Heritage Railway Association (HRA) says English coal supplies will run out in early 2021, with Welsh supplies lasting until 2022.
Chairman of the West Somerset Railway Jonathan Jones-Pratt said: "The whole industry is in jeopardy over this.
"We've got so much coal here but the problem is that we can't extract it."
Steam locomotives rely on bituminous lump coal to burn, which is relatively smokeless and comparatively clean.
The opencast mine at Dewley Hill, near Newcastle, would have produced this coal but it was rejected for environmental reasons.

 

[Peter C]

This topic seems to have been facing heritage railways for some time now. Chris Eden-Green, of 'Steam Locos in Profile' fame, made a video on it in March last year:

-Peter

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I've just seen this report on the BBC News website. It seems that the major issue is that British locomotives are designed to run on the kind of coal found in the UK. Could we see modifications to fireboxes and boilers to compensate for the need to use imported coal?

Steam railways 'will run out of coal', industry warns

Heritage attractions are in "jeopardy" amid a shortage of English coal, industry warns.

www.bbc.co.uk

I come from a coal mining background (father was an NCB manager) - the obvious thing is to import American coal , as they did in the 1940's post war.

Although really I would push for a modest Welsh coal mine , - this could be done - (as opposed to an open cast mine which is not great for the environment) - there will always be some residual market (albeit small) for good coal

 

[Cowley]

I come from a coal mining background (father was an NCB manager) - the obvious thing is to import American coal , as they did in the 1940's post war.

Although really I would push for a modest Welsh coal mine , - this could be done - (as opposed to an open cast mine which is not great for the environment) - there will always be some residual market (albeit small) for good coal

I’m sure that I read recently that a new open cast mine for the use of (amongst other things) the heritage sector was turned down on environmental grounds last year causing a certain amount of consternation as the environmental impact of importing it is going to be far greater.
I just can’t work out where I read it though and I’m trying to find a source.

Edit - There’s a link to the story in the article and I’m an idiot.

 

[ABB125]

I’m sure that I read recently that a new open cast mine for the use of (amongst other things) the heritage sector was turned down on environmental grounds last year causing a certain amount of consternation as the environmental impact of importing it is going to be far greater.
I just can’t work out where I read it though and I’m trying to find a source.

Edit - There’s a link to the story in the article and I’m an idiot.

Ah yes, the usual "I can't see the emissions/pollution, therefore it doesn't matter" argument...
What about the new coal mine in Cumbria? Would that produce suitable coal?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Ah yes, the usual "I can't see the emissions/pollution, therefore it doesn't matter" argument...
What about the new coal mine in Cumbria? Would that produce suitable coal?

The Cumbria mine was geared at coking coal (very valuable stuff) , but distinct from that needed for steam locomotives , though it might do. Don't know. Someone with loads of time could research on line the characteristics of the burning capabilities of various types of coal.

Question - how do systems like the Hartz in Germany source their hard black coal ? (they used to burn DDR brown coal muck - filthy and dirty stuff , fast burning but poor stuff)

Bulleid came a cropper with turf burning in Ireland. Do not reccomend that , and am told wood briquettes are not a lot of good.

 

[alexl92]

West Coast have been importing coal from Russia and elsewhere for a few years now - David Smith is a director (and I believe owner) of William Smith (Wakefield) Ltd which imports coal from abroad.

They don't believe there will be an issue for railways other than that the coal isn't as high quality as UK coal.

I personally think that the decision to deny the two new mine proposals is so short-sighted. The environmental cost of importing coal is massive.

 

[geoffk]

Not just heritage railways but other heritage uses such as pumping stations and traction engines will be affected. UK-produced coal would generate a fraction of the CO2 emissions created by extracting and then shipping coal half-way round the world and it would be much more affordable.

 

[stj]

Oil or LPG conversion?

 

[Romsey]

It's a good headline but Ffos-y Fran in South Wales doesn't close until sometime in 2022.
The Heritage Railway Association have been pushing the subject for some years, but the overall picture of carbon emissions seems to be glossed over to save creating short term open cast mines which would last a few years and then be landscaped.
Yes there is discussion about importing coal. There are rumblings about conversions to oil burning, but gas oil, not heavy fuel oil which is even more polluting than badly burnt coal.

 

[Greybeard33]

UK-produced coal would generate a fraction of the CO2 emissions created by extracting and then shipping coal half-way round the world and it would be much more affordable.

But the BBC story says that

Once stocks run out the industry will be reliant on foreign imports as demand from the steam industry would not be enough to sustain a domestic coal mine, according to the HRA.

The Newcastle mine would have been primarily to fuel a nearby brickworks.

 

[Romsey]

The trouble is that most industrial processes are OK with coal in 25mm lumps or dust. Steam locos and other heritage uses need lump coal in fist sized lumps or larger. Unless coal is carefully handled over long distances, it will be reduced to industrial grade dusty coal. Yes I know stoker fired locos can use small coal, but 1) no preserved steam locos in the UK are stoker fired and 2) the coal consumption is much higher as the light stuff never even gets to the fire bed, it goes straight through the tubes and up the chimney.

 

[swanhill41]

I have heard from a informed source that coal sourcing post 2021 is No1 problem along with after effects of Covid..

 

[geoffk]

It's a good headline but Ffos-y Fran in South Wales doesn't close until sometime in 2022.
The Heritage Railway Association have been pushing the subject for some years, but the overall picture of carbon emissions seems to be glossed over to save creating short term open cast mines which would last a few years and then be landscaped.
Yes there is discussion about importing coal. There are rumblings about conversions to oil burning, but gas oil, not heavy fuel oil which is even more polluting than badly burnt coal.

The Ffestiniog Railway used oil for its steam locos for some years to reduce the number of lineside fires and resulting fines. Rising oil prices led to a return to coal burning but I believe the process is reversible. Anyone understand the economics of a wholesale conversion to oil firing? The West Somerset has investigated both compressed pulverised coal and use of gas oil but they say neither is cost effective unless the price of coal at least doubles.

 

[wagwan my g]

How many heritage lines actually still run off this English coal?
Even the article says some attractions such as the svr have switched to overseas, I've heard of a few others that already import.

 

[DarloRich]

Does this story not crop up from time to time and turn out to be a non story?

 

[broadgage]

Smokeless patent fuels would seem to be an alternative to coal.
I recall an old "railway practice and performance" magazine article in which a main line steamer was run on Homefire Ovals, a then popular patent fuel. It worked fine. Similar fuels are available today.
More recently, I have fired a traction engine with patent smokeless fuel and it worked fine, as did a steam truck.

Such fuels are readily available and are used by a significant minority of rural households.

Coal burning for electricity production has been greatly reduced, but some is still used in the winter. Power station coal could presumably be used in a steam loco, screened to reject the small bits which could still be burnt in the power station.

 

[trebor79]

Coal burning for electricity production has been greatly reduced, but some is still used in the winter. Power station coal could presumably be used in a steam loco, screened to reject the small bits which could still be burnt in the power station.

Power station coal is much too small. There is no lump coal even when it's delivered to the stockpile, you wouldn't screen out anything suitable for loco use.

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

Smokeless patent fuels would seem to be an alternative to coal.
I recall an old "railway practice and performance" magazine article in which a main line steamer was run on Homefire Ovals, a then popular patent fuel. It worked fine. Similar fuels are available today.
More recently, I have fired a traction engine with patent smokeless fuel and it worked fine, as did a steam truck.

Such fuels are readily available and are used by a significant minority of rural households.

Coal burning for electricity production has been greatly reduced, but some is still used in the winter. Power station coal could presumably be used in a steam loco, screened to reject the small bits which could still be burnt in the power station.

The dreaded 'Ovoids'. Some of the tenders at Barry still had some in. No personal experience, but I've never read a good word about them.
Pat

 

[Aictos]

Talking of coal, I don't know what coal that one preserved railway uses in this case the Nene Valley Railway but it was considerably poor quality judging by the amount of coal dust and bits thrown up by the loco's firebox.

Surely a good quality coal doesn't do that? It's partly why I was estatic to see the DMU (Class 117) or a Diesel be rostered for the day as it meant not having a face full of coal particles.

As to coal mining, what about clean coal technology? I've heard of it and I know Trump goes on about it but what is it and could that he used here?

 

[alex17595]

Coal mining is insanely expensive, especially deep mining and open cast is very distructive. The issue is there just isn't enough demand for it - some of the bigger pits were pulling out hundreds of thousands of tonnes compared to the 26,000 tonnes to heritage rail sector uses.

When I went on a tour of Apedale colliery they were on about getting a licence to mine a small amount of coal. It could be an interesting idea to have a whole heritage economy but mining must be the most expensive process of the lot.

 

[jopsuk]

As to coal mining, what about clean coal technology? I've heard of it and I know Trump goes on about it but what is it and could that he used here?

"clean coal" is fitting advanced scrubbers (and even carbon capture and storage) to the chimney of power plants. Not technology applicable to locos

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Coal mining is insanely expensive, especially deep mining and open cast is very distructive. The issue is there just isn't enough demand for it - some of the bigger pits were pulling out hundreds of thousands of tonnes compared to the 26,000 tonnes to heritage rail sector uses.

When I went on a tour of Apedale colliery they were on about getting a licence to mine a small amount of coal. It could be an interesting idea to have a whole heritage economy but mining must be the most expensive process of the lot.

Indeed. Cheaper to import it I feel.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Its all well and good to mention "Heritage mining" but i think the risks associated with mining and insurance required would never be sustainable. Coal is a bulk commodity and is only really valuable if you can get a lot of it out of the ground. If a small operation had to deal with subsidence risks, minewater runoff, tailings, spoil etc.. they could never make a profit.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Its all well and good to mention "Heritage mining" but i think the risks associated with mining and insurance required would never be sustainable. Coal is a bulk commodity and is only really valuable if you can get a lot of it out of the ground. If a small operation had to deal with subsidence risks, minewater runoff, tailings, spoil etc.. they could never make a profit.

The National Coal Mining Museum for England near Wakefield (have to remind myself to not call it the "Yorkshire Mining Museum") is still certified as a working mine, AIUI it has to be in order to be able to run the tours, but I don't think they actually extract much if any coal. Whether a section of it could be reactivated commercially I have no idea, but it might be possible. As long as COVID is going around they aren't going to be having many school parties down the pit anyway!

 

[alex17595]

Legislation has pretty much killed of small scale coal mining, it's not like the 1880s where you could dig a hole in the ground and just leave the waste in piles when your done. There's a whole raft of environmental and safety regulations to follow. There was actually a couple of one man band type colliery which lasted until fairly recently, such as Hilltop Colliery which was the last working coal mine in Lancashire.

Hill Top Colliery

 

[Titfield]

It would be interesting to know (for comparison purposes) what the emissions output of a range of steam locomotives and 1950-1070s diesel locomotives and DMUs are?

 

[MarkyT]

Yes there is discussion about importing coal. There are rumblings about conversions to oil burning, but gas oil, not heavy fuel oil which is even more polluting than badly burnt coal.

Importing coal isn't going to work long term I think as the world shifts away from coal. Gas oil is probably the way to go. The 5AT project was to use that, with he advantage of being able to fill up at any diesel depot, and 'modern steam' proponents DLM in Switzerland have supplied new rack locos and paddle steamer engines burning a similar fuel with the benefit of single person operation and much reduced prepping and cleaning, and they use it on their own mainline 2-10-0, a technology demonstrator also available for excursion haulage hire. The rack engine boilers even have plug in electric preheating elements installed so staff can remotely get one started from cold if neccessary without waking up so early, and they've been designed in detail to be so well insulated they lose very little heat energy overnight if they were working the day before.

 

[randyrippley]

I flagged this up exactly a year ago in this thread

Steam on rail tours

Do you think in this day and age with climate change and energy sources becoming ever increasing issues, steam locos should finally be moved off long distance mainline charter services and confined purely to small heritage lines, where speeds are low and journeys short (hence burning less coal)...

www.railforums.co.uk

and the sources quoted there are as valid now as they were then

 

[leytongabriel]

The Welsh Government have announced a plan to ban coal burning in home fires. Is this going to affect heritage lines and any possible small scale mining ventures?

Clean air: Coal burning ban and wet wood restrictions planned

A new clean air law could see burning house coal banned in Wales, and stricter rules on using wood fires.

www.bbc.co.uk

New laws could see burning traditional house coal banned entirely in Wales within two years.
The Welsh Government also wants the sale of wet wood for home fires to be heavily restricted in a bid to tackle air pollution.
The proposals are part of a consultation published alongside plans for a new clean air law for Wales.
Only the most efficient and least polluting wood burning stoves could soon be available to buy and install.