BBC: Wheelchair user 'forced to wet himself' after buses fail to stop

[Hophead]

Oxford Tube has the bus full display. They just put it on and drive past.

Same in Brighton, who will also call a taxi if a wheelchair user is unable to board (though it's usually quicker to simply get the next bus in most cases).

 

[PeterC]

Are we now suggesting that the Stagecoach Prontos (all are double deck E400s) were full up at the time ?. - or are we just looking for excuses ?
As usual, best wait for the facts.

No, if you read all the posts you would see that a reference to a different incident was introduces where the bus was full and standing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are we now suggesting that the Stagecoach Prontos (all are double deck E400s) were full up at the time ?. - or are we just looking for excuses ?
As usual, best wait for the facts.

I'm suggesting that one valid reason for a bus driver not to stop at a stop is that the bus is full, yes. I think it's fair to have some balance in the thread rather than simple villification.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

What else is the driver supposed to do in that situation?

Exactly what the Trent driver did - shake his head no - which has happened to me with full buses before - unlike Stagecoach who just seemed to have ignored their passenger!

 

[overthewater]

Strange that not always the case with Stagecoach drivers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly what the Trent driver did - shake his head no - which has happened to me with full buses before - unlike Stagecoach who just seemed to have ignored their passenger!

Do we know they didn't?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Sadly, we're hearing a media story (again) and Stagecoach have said that they are investigating to ascertain the facts. We should appreciate that those have to be established.

Stagecoach have specifically said they failed to abide by their rules and disciplinary investigations are taking place. It's very different. For Stagey to be so robust in public implies, to me at least, that the wheelchair user's version is the correct one.

If the wheelchair user was swinging the lead they'd have been a lot more subdued in their reply.

 

[Tetchytyke]

People think they can speak and behave how they like to drivers and they do.

It works both ways, especially up here. Some of the Walkergate drivers are absolutely vile.

 

[martian boy]

It works both ways, especially up here. Some of the Walkergate drivers are absolutely vile.

There are some vile drivers here in South Wales. Fortunately, a severe talking to brings them in line. I just wish some, a very few, passengers could be dealt with.

 

[johnw]

Same here in what was United Counties land. Driving well over 40 in a 30 mph zone. The Scanias can hide it but the cheap Cummins squeal like children, sorry I mean kids.

 

[cnjb8]

Exactly what the Trent driver did - shake his head no - which has happened to me with full buses before - unlike Stagecoach who just seemed to have ignored their passenger!

I was talking about the Trent drivers shaking no when there bus is full.a

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was talking about the Trent drivers shaking no when there bus is full.a

That's usual practice in most places. Stopping is likely just to result in an argument.

 

[Geordie driver]

It works both ways, especially up here. Some of the Walkergate drivers are absolutely vile.

Then complain, it will all be on CCTV. I have used buses since the early 1980s in the Walker/ Walker gate area and never met one " vile" driver. The company will never back the driver even if they are in the right. The worst that will happen is you get a free journey voucher.
. I have to wonder Artic Troll, have you ever worked for any major bus company as a driver?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then complain, it will all be on CCTV. I have used buses since the early 1980s in the Walker/ Walker gate area and never met one " vile" driver. The company will never back the driver even if they are in the right. The worst that will happen is you get a free journey voucher.

FWIW I've complained about serious driver misconduct on an airport shuttle bus (deliberately trapping someone in the doors in anger and refusing to release them when pointed out that this had happened), they did indeed take it seriously - they said they viewed the CCTV and it backed up my version of events. I never saw the driver again.

 

[ashkeba]

I have never known a company back a driver in anyway, CCTV goes missing or is subject to " data protection" in the event it backs the driver.

Here is Go Whippet backing the driver irrationally https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/guided-busway-crash-cambridge-13220608 and here he is being fired https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-40558729

When has CCTV gone missing?

Many drivers are lovely but there are also many awful ones who are horrible but I am never sure if it is the disability, funny accent or skin colour that they dislike!

 

[Tom B]

Stagecoach have specifically said they failed to abide by their rules and disciplinary investigations are taking place. It's very different. For Stagey to be so robust in public implies, to me at least, that the wheelchair user's version is the correct one.

If the wheelchair user was swinging the lead they'd have been a lot more subdued in their reply.

An investigation would take place irrespective, after such a complaint. What the investigation finds is another matter and is something that the company has to take great care if they discuss, since it may involve staff discipline matters.

 

[GusB]

Many drivers are lovely but there are also many awful ones who are horrible but I am never sure if it is the disability, funny accent or skin colour that they dislike!

Many humans are lovely but there are also many awful ones who are horrible but I am never sure if it is the disability, funny accent or skin colour that they dislike!
There are good and bad people in all walks of life. Let's not turn this into a bash-the-bus-driver thread.

 

[Robertj21a]

Many humans are lovely but there are also many awful ones who are horrible but I am never sure if it is the disability, funny accent or skin colour that they dislike!
There are good and bad people in all walks of life. Let's not turn this into a bash-the-bus-driver thread.

I don't think anyone is trying to bash any bus driver. The simple fact is that, as in any similar industry, there will always be some at the good and some at the bad end of how they handle the customer facing issues. In my experience, most bus drivers are good, but often frustrated by unhelpful passengers, management, and other road users. In general they are poorly paid and have a good deal of stress and tiredness to handle.
Even so, I have no time for any bus driver **IF** they deliberately avoid assisting the severely disabled.

 

[Geordie driver]

I don't think anyone is trying to bash any bus driver. The simple fact is that, as in any similar industry, there will always be some at the good and some at the bad end of how they handle the customer facing issues. In my experience, most bus drivers are good, but often frustrated by unhelpful passengers, management, and other road users. In general they are poorly paid and have a good deal of stress and tiredness to handle.
Even so, I have no time for any bus driver **IF** they deliberately avoid assisting the severely disabled.

Completely agree, and love the big " IF" fact is we will never know the truth, but the newspapers version of the truth.
Here is an actual video of me in action back in the 80's

 

[Tetchytyke]

I have to wonder Artic Troll, have you ever worked for any major bus company as a driver?

I've spent 15 years working with vulnerable people, I know the public can be difficult. It's not a job I'd want to do.

Doesn't excuse some of the nastiness I've seen from drivers at that depot, both directed at me and at other people.

 

[Geordie driver]

Here is Go Whippet backing the driver irrationally https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/guided-busway-crash-cambridge-13220608 and here he is being fired https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-40558729

When has CCTV gone missing?

Many drivers are lovely but there are also many awful ones who are horrible but I am never sure if it is the disability, funny accent or skin colour that they dislike!

CCTV goes missing when it backs the driver, it either wasn't working or is subject to data protection.

The bus industry has a very mixed group of staff and the people I have worked with, while they may have times been awful would not do so due to the reasons you have given.

I think part of the problem is, say a regular user has 600 bus journeys a year, do they remember the 500 which go without incident, or the other 95 where there might be the odd problem or the other 5 terrible journey's? It's the last 5 that stick and if a couple of those are the drivers fault they get painted as racist/ disability/ whateverist, don't matter if it's true, they are just a bus driver.

 

[ashkeba]

CCTV goes missing when it backs the driver, it either wasn't working or is subject to data protection.

The bus industry has a very mixed group of staff and the people I have worked with, while they may have times been awful would not do so due to the reasons you have given.

I think part of the problem is, say a regular user has 600 bus journeys a year, do they remember the 500 which go without incident, or the other 95 where there might be the odd problem or the other 5 terrible journey's? It's the last 5 that stick and if a couple of those are the drivers fault they get painted as racist/ disability/ whateverist, don't matter if it's true, they are just a bus driver.

I wish it was as few as 5 terrible out of 600 and problems only 1 in 6! I think this radically different experience suggests there may be a systematic cause such as those.

Is there a reported case of CCTV going missing? I showed you a bus company backing their driver until it became silly.

 

[Geordie driver]

I wish it was as few as 5 terrible out of 600 and problems only 1 in 6! I think this radically different experience suggests there may be a systematic cause such as those.

Is there a reported case of CCTV going missing? I showed you a bus company backing their driver until it became silly.

It's possible that due to the terrible wages and conditions they struggle to recruit drivers, perhaps standards have dropped. Since privatization bus companies have engaged in a race to the bottom with wages and conditions for drivers.

Since I was discussing CCTV being unavailable to drivers when it backs them up. I was referring to passenger complaints, not accidents. Clearly if the driver is in the right in an accident it is in the companies interest to produce the video.

There will be no reports of CCTV being unavailable from the companies, why would there be, they have no interest in supporting their drivers in passenger complaints, that would lose them places in their race to the bottom.

I was once suspended for refusing to drive a DAF optare in the summer due to the passenger heaters being jammed on. The bus had a problem with what the depot mistakenly thought was overheating so they had set the passenger heaters on and removed the controls. It was a hot spring day and since care and consideration of the passenger is supposed to be your first concern I asked for another vehicle and they refused. Passengers getting off were complaining of feeling ill due to the heat. I refused to drive it and was sent home. They then tried to discipline me. I informed them I would contact the traffic commissioners and the disciplinary was dropped.

A few days later there was a letter in the Newcastle journal complaining about that vehicle and the heat, the company had been contacted and told the paper the drivers could switch the heating off, all the passengers had to do was ask. A blatant lie and bound to cause more conflict, where once again they would lie and fail to support their driver.

Forgive me if I am a bit cynical about bus companies and their treatment of drivers but my experience comes from 19 years of service work where it changed from a good job to a terrible job.

 

[wazztie16]

That's usual practice in most places. Stopping is likely just to result in an argument.

I can verify that stopping usually results in an argument, after stopping a few times and everything being hunky dory, waiting customers being accepting of the bus being full, I stopped and did it for the final time before I started driving past shaking my head, as a customer boarded despite me saying I wouldn't take him, refused to get off so ended up being escorted off by an off duty police officer from on the bus, making them both late for work and me even later than I already was.

I've left bus driving now, potentially temporarily, I've not decided yet, to pursue other things, but if I ever went back I wouldn't stop to apologise to people in future. It's not worth the hassle, and having to do it at lots of stops.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've left bus driving now, potentially temporarily, I've not decided yet, to pursue other things, but if I ever went back I wouldn't stop to apologise to people in future. It's not worth the hassle, and having to do it at lots of stops.

TBH the best way to apologise to most users is just to have "sorry, bus full" on the screens - some companies do this. Obviously also show the number so they know which bus is full!

It would also help if the realtime passenger information systems could contain notes like that as per the rail one, so deaf people could establish this using a screen reader on their own device.

 

[Andyh82]

To be honest, if the driver shakes his head at you, and then you see the bus fly past with passengers stood down the aisle, it’s quite easy to work out why it hasn’t stopped.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest, if the driver shakes his head at you, and then you see the bus fly past with passengers stood down the aisle, it’s quite easy to work out why it hasn’t stopped.

Indeed, though adding that information to the RTPI (as the railway often does if a train gets so full people may not be able to board) does allow one to walk, take a taxi or whatever without first having to stand around and see if the bus is full or not.

 

[wazztie16]

TBH the best way to apologise to most users is just to have "sorry, bus full" on the screens - some companies do this. Obviously also show the number so they know which bus is full!

It would also help if the realtime passenger information systems could contain notes like that as per the rail one, so deaf people could establish this using a screen reader on their own device.

The company I worked for did have a button on the INIT MACHINE to notify the office that the bus was full, but that was removed. No destination board message as far as I can recall during my time there.

 

[Busaholic]

Completely agree, and love the big " IF" fact is we will never know the truth, but the newspapers version of the truth.
Here is an actual video of me in action back in the 80's

Bernard Manning lives!