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Beeching Plan 2021: roads to close

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LSWR Cavalier

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If roads are closed or narrowed there are fewer and less serious 'accidents', so the rescue and undertakers have less work, what is not to like?
..
Can not remember getting up to 29 mph on the old road through Newbury, average might have been under 10 mph for several miles
 
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Domh245

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If roads are closed or narrowed there are fewer and less serious 'accidents', so the rescue and undertakers have less work, what is not to like?

As has been discussed previously, road traffic incidents are far from a significant draw on emergency services, so you gain comparatively little from reduced calls, whilst slowing down the response to all incidents
 

swt_passenger

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...I concede point 1. I was misled by the Newbury and huntingdon bypasses which were dual carriageway replacing dual carriageway.
The Newbury bypass only replaced a dual carriageway within, and north of, Newbury, there’s still a fairly long single stretch for about 3 miles heading south - and that’s the bit that would now cause serious delays if the bypass wasn’t there.
 

Ianno87

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Ah, the usual argument of traders. I think it depends on what kind of business it is. If they sell large stuff, it might be a problem, but generally there will be more people walking and cycling past and thinking 'let's pop in and have a look'.

None of the shop on Mill Road sell particularly large things. And for those that do, you can still drive the long way round if you have to (you don't generally buy large things when "just passing" unless you're some eccentric aristocrat)

The emergency services are also not a fan as they can slow down response.

The Mill Road example is still passable by emergency vehicles. On others, they'll be consulted, and plan response routes accordingly (usually benefitting from reduced congestion on the way)
 

Bletchleyite

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I thought they actually liked them because emergency vehicles are still allowed through most closures so now have a nearly clear road and do not need to fight past jams so often?

Most of them are blocked off with planters so they can't. A gate helps, but then they have to stop to open it.

Point 2 is not true in the UK yet. I wonder if @Bletchleyite know if the shoulder of the MK A5D bypass is still officially a 70mph 1.5m unprotected cycle lane with bike symbols painted on it? That was nasty shock in a city with otherwise OK bike ways.

It is, but there is literally no reason to cycle on it because there are plenty of alternatives (e.g. the Redway up the old A5) so you almost never actually do see a cyclist on it. It is rather akin to cycling on a motorway if you do.
 

Ianno87

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Most of them are blocked off with planters so they can't. A gate helps, but then they have to stop to open it.

Mainly because they are (at this point in time) temporary. Permanent solutions can use ANPR cameras.
 

BayPaul

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If roads are closed or narrowed there are fewer and less serious 'accidents', so the rescue and undertakers have less work, what is not to like?
..
Can not remember getting up to 29 mph on the old road through Newbury, average might have been under 10 mph for several miles
There were 250 deaths on the UK strategic road network in 2018. That's not going to cause any redundancies in the undertaking profession if they all closed. This compares to 1750 across the road network, and 311 on UK railways. (figures all from Google). Overall, dual carriageways are probably safer than railways.

I think you are panicking unnecessarily. There may be other reasons to close large roads, but safety really isn't one of them.
 

biko

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There were 250 deaths on the UK strategic road network in 2018. That's not going to cause any redundancies in the undertaking profession if they all closed. This compares to 1750 across the road network, and 311 on UK railways. (figures all from Google). Overall, dual carriageways are probably safer than railways.

I think you are panicking unnecessarily. There may be other reasons to close large roads, but safety really isn't one of them.
Dual carriageways are very safe, but I don't think they are safer than railways. But closing them because of safety concerns is indeed really a strange reason, actually it will probably lead to more accidents as more traffic will go to dangerous single carriageways and more people will have health problems because of pollution in towns.
 

BayPaul

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Dual carriageways are very safe, but I don't think they are safer than railways. But closing them because of safety concerns is indeed really a strange reason, actually it will probably lead to more accidents as more traffic will go to dangerous single carriageways and more people will have health problems because of pollution in towns.
I was probably being a little disingenuous. I think most of the rail deaths are at level crossings. It may well be the case that rail passengers are safer than dual carriageway passengers, but that deaths in society in general are higher on the railway.
 

biko

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I was probably being a little disingenuous. I think most of the rail deaths are at level crossings. It may well be the case that rail passengers are safer than dual carriageway passengers, but that deaths in society in general are higher on the railway.
Ah, that certainly might be true. But a comparison is complex as you need to know exposure to be able to estimate the risk, and exposure cannot be defined in a similar way in these cases. And there is the distortion of suicides which may not be an 'accident' in the true sense of the word.
 

AndrewE

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There were 250 deaths on the UK strategic road network in 2018. That's not going to cause any redundancies in the undertaking profession if they all closed. This compares to 1750 across the road network, and 311 on UK railways. (figures all from Google). Overall, dual carriageways are probably safer than railways.

I think you are panicking unnecessarily. There may be other reasons to close large roads, but safety really isn't one of them.
Those are very strange numbers. I guess you ("Google") must be including suicides in the rail figures and pedestrians on the pavement in the "across the road network" figures. I would be very surprised if dual carriageway roads were "safer" than railways, so I guess it doesn't allow for passenger-miles.
 

Butts

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Before the M40 opened getting from The West Midlands to Southampton was a Nightmare I used to make the journey regularly.

Both the A34 and A33 were horrendous before the opening of The Newbury Bypass and the extension of the M3.

Forget getting through Newbury the worst blackspot was near Winchester namely Hockley Traffic Lights.

On a bad day the queues would stretch back to Poplar where the M3 ended.

The M40 also in conjunction with the M25 made it a lot easier to get to London and Dover. It very rarely had delays in it's early day's.
 

BayPaul

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Many deaths on railways are suicide. Many deaths on roads are killings of others who did not want to die.
Those are very strange numbers. I guess you ("Google") must be including suicides in the rail figures and pedestrians on the pavement in the "across the road network" figures. I would be very surprised if dual carriageway roads were "safer" than railways, so I guess it doesn't allow for passenger-miles.
True. But the numbers in both cases are very small which was my point. Fully segregated long distance roads are very safe, with very small numbers of deaths for their massive numbers of users. From some of the comments on this thread there are people who think of them as being patrol zones for hearses, ready to pick up the bodies by the dozen. The dangerous roads are those in towns, and if anything should be closed, narrowed or otherwise restricted for safety reasons, it is these.
 

A0wen

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Before the M40 opened getting from The West Midlands to Southampton was a Nightmare I used to make the journey regularly.

Both the A34 and A33 were horrendous before the opening of The Newbury Bypass and the extension of the M3.

Forget getting through Newbury the worst blackspot was near Winchester namely Hockley Traffic Lights.

On a bad day the queues would stretch back to Poplar where the M3 ended.

The M40 also in conjunction with the M25 made it a lot easier to get to London and Dover. It very rarely had delays in it's early day's.

You mean Popham not Poplar, but otherwise agree completely.

I've used the more recent incarnation of the A34 several times over the last 2 decades - the only point of congestion used to be the M4 / A34 junction until that was reworked so the A34 traffic didn't grind to a halt there.

Going back to the 80s, my dad's job relocated from mid Herts, where we lived to Reading. Over the 4 or so years he commuted that journey daily bits of the M25 opened, initially to the M40 and then onto the M4 and it reduced his journey considerably. Previously it had been various bits of cross country through villages etc.
 

Butts

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You mean Popham not Poplar, but otherwise agree completely.

I've used the more recent incarnation of the A34 several times over the last 2 decades - the only point of congestion used to be the M4 / A34 junction until that was reworked so the A34 traffic didn't grind to a halt there.

Going back to the 80s, my dad's job relocated from mid Herts, where we lived to Reading. Over the 4 or so years he commuted that journey daily bits of the M25 opened, initially to the M40 and then onto the M4 and it reduced his journey considerably. Previously it had been various bits of cross country through villages etc.

Yes Popham indeed, think there was a Services there if I remember correctly.
 

wireforever

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Cancelling the new bypass proposed in Warrington needs looking at .It will cost millions involve a TBM boring a tunnel under the west coast mainline and will it really be needed if people are working from home post covid.I also fail to see how building a new road helps climate change/air quality in the long term.
 

ABB125

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Cancelling the new bypass proposed in Warrington needs looking at .It will cost millions involve a TBM boring a tunnel under the west coast mainline and will it really be needed if people are working from home post covid.I also fail to see how building a new road helps climate change/air quality in the long term.
It will ("should") remove cars from the town centre (especially if they put measures in place to stop cars using the old route).
However, I think you've missed the main purpose of the "bypass":
The new Warrington Western Link will help tackle congestion, improve traffic flow, unlock key development land, and improve the quality of life for residents within the Borough.
"They" don't actually care about any of those points, except for the one in bold. There's a reason it's referred to as a "link road"...
 

Ianno87

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Cancelling the new bypass proposed in Warrington needs looking at .It will cost millions involve a TBM boring a tunnel under the west coast mainline and will it really be needed if people are working from home post covid.I also fail to see how building a new road helps climate change/air quality in the long term.

Sounds like the sort of thing that will only succeed in generating more traffic through induced demand.
 

Bald Rick

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Cancelling the new bypass proposed in Warrington needs looking at .It will cost millions involve a TBM boring a tunnel under the west coast mainline and will it really be needed if people are working from home post covid.I also fail to see how building a new road helps climate change/air quality in the long term.

Isn’t that proposal mostly about opening a whole area of land for development?

And it won’t be a TBM boring a Tunnel under the WCML, you don’t use a TBM for jobs like that!
 

Bald Rick

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Though presumably there's nothing stopping the use of a TBM apart from the budget?

Aside from it probably not being deep enough, there’s Engineering practicality and pragmatism. Why have a machine 100metres+ long when you can just push a box through? Or, given where it is, it would be straightforward just to dig out the two embankments one at a time.
 

swt_passenger

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They just pushed a bridge under The Chiltern main line near Bicester over the last bank holiday weekend, there’s no real reason they couldn’t do the same under the WCML. There may be a few good reasons not to build the road, but getting under a railway isn’t likely to be one of them...
 

ABB125

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Aside from it probably not being deep enough, there’s Engineering practicality and pragmatism. Why have a machine 100metres+ long when you can just push a box through? Or, given where it is, it would be straightforward just to dig out the two embankments one at a time.
Where's the fun in being pragmatic? :D
 

djwg

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I seem to recall Beeching was asked to look at the road network by Barbara Castle and recommended that all on street parking was removed to improve its efficiency and no-one should be allowed to own a car if they didnt have an off road parking space for it (a policy that seems to apply in some Japanese cities). Roads being for moving people and goods not for leaving tons of metal lying around on. The suggestion was rapidly dropped as to difficult politically and practically (where would all the new parking spaces be built). I have never been able to find any evidence this story is true though.
I'm inclined to agree with his reasoning. Roads aren't for storage.
 
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