Before the Ordsall Chord

[mspljd1990]

Before the Ordsall Chord I remember eastbound TPEs out of Manchester Piccadilly would loop through Victoria and then head towards Leeds along the Calder Valley Line and then through Brighouse. The Ordsall Chord is only recently built but I can't find on Google maps where this former line that linked Piccadilly with Victoria is, anyone remember?

 

[Ianno87]

Before the Ordsall Chord I remember eastbound TPEs out of Manchester Piccadilly would loop through Victoria and then head towards Leeds along the Calder Valley Line and then through Brighouse. The Ordsall Chord is only recently built but I can't find on Google maps where this former line that linked Piccadilly with Victoria is, anyone remember?

Pre-Chord, that routeing was only occasionally used during engineering works etc. Trains reversed at Salford Crescent (no passenger call)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Thanks ianno87. Don't remember that myself. Always thought that the majority of Leeds bound trains out of Manchester Piccadilly (eastbound) in recent years would have been routinely routed via Guide Bridge, Stalybridge and Huddersfield.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Before the Ordsall Chord I remember eastbound TPEs out of Manchester Piccadilly would loop through Victoria and then head towards Leeds along the Calder Valley Line and then through Brighouse. The Ordsall Chord is only recently built but I can't find on Google maps where this former line that linked Piccadilly with Victoria is, anyone remember?

Have a look at the map* in this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordsall_Chord

Before the chord was built, the only way to reach Victoria was to go out to Salford Crescent (towards Bolton) and reverse there to reach Victoria via Salford Central.
But that route was very rarely taken, and generally TPE services went out from Piccadilly to Stalybridge via Guide Bridge and then to Leeds via Huddersfield.
The Calder Valley route from Victoria via Todmorden and Brighouse is a diversion route used when there is engineering work on the Huddersfield route.

* Having had a look at the map, it's rubbish.
It tries to describe the full Manchester Hub upgrade, but in fact only the Ordsall Chord was built (described on the map as Castlefield Curve).
The captions on the lines heading east and west are wrong too.
But it does give the idea of the Chord's route.

 

[xotGD]

I did the Salford Crescent reverse late one evening when travelling from the Airport to Leeds.

I was a bit confused when we arrived into the through platforms at Piccadilly!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Wow - long time since I did this. I would do Preston to Piccadilly via Windsor link then Piccadilly to Stockport then to Stalybridge then across the Pennines via Huddersfield

 

[J-P_L]

As above the route is through to Salford Crescent to reverse and change ends then through Salford Central to Victoria and is still used.

There are usually 2 overnight services during normal timetables that still run that route for crew competency.

Currently on the COVID-19 timetable (depending on engineering works) 1P03 the 00:38 Airport to York is booked to run this route.

 

[terryc]

One of the YouTube cab ride videos by Don Coffey actually does this manoeuvre, post Ordsall curve, for maintaining route knowledge.

 

[mspljd1990]

Have a look at the map* in this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordsall_Chord

Before the chord was built, the only way to reach Victoria was to go out to Salford Crescent (towards Bolton) and reverse there to reach Victoria via Salford Central.
But that route was very rarely taken, and generally TPE services went out from Piccadilly to Stalybridge via Guide Bridge and then to Leeds via Huddersfield.
The Calder Valley route from Victoria via Todmorden and Brighouse is a diversion route used when there is engineering work on the Huddersfield route.

* Having had a look at the map, it's rubbish.
It tries to describe the full Manchester Hub upgrade, but in fact only the Ordsall Chord was built (described on the map as Castlefield Curve).
The captions on the lines heading east and west are wrong too.
But it does give the idea of the Chord's route.

Strange, I don't recall the train reversing at Salford Crescent. I'll take your word for it though, maybe my memory is foggy!

That was the usual route pre-Ordsall, and personally I thought it it was a lot better, but I can recall two occasions when I got a TPE back to Leeds from Piccadilly and it went through Victoria.

 

[sportzbar]

Strange, I don't recall the train reversing at Salford Crescent. I'll take your word for it though, maybe my memory is foggy!

That was the usual route pre-Ordsall, and personally I thought it it was a lot better, but I can recall two occasions when I got a TPE back to Leeds from Piccadilly and it went through Victoria.

They also would have reversed at Salford Crescent. The only other physical way of doing it is to go to the Ashburys turn back (behind the station), do a reversal, then a line will take you through to Baguley Fold Junction, where you can go left towards Miles Platting or right towards Ashton-under-lyne and Stalybridge. To get to Victoria this way you would go left, down Miles Platting Bank and into Victoria. Then another reversal would occur to get you back up Miles Platting Bank, past Baguley Fold and on towards Stalybridge and Leeds beyond or via Calder Valley to Leeds. Apart from this involving two reversals the line between Ashburys and Baguley Fold isn't certified for passenger use, only freight and ECS movements (it's how empty stock gets from Newton Heath to Piccadilly). You definitely would have reversed at Salford.

 

[PennineSuperb]

They also would have reversed at Salford Crescent. The only other physical way of doing it is to go to the Ashburys turn back (behind the station), do a reversal, then a line will take you through to Baguley Fold Junction, where you can go left towards Miles Platting or right towards Ashton-under-lyne and Stalybridge. To get to Victoria this way you would go left, down Miles Platting Bank and into Victoria. Then another reversal would occur to get you back up Miles Platting Bank, past Baguley Fold and on towards Stalybridge and Leeds beyond or via Calder Valley to Leeds. Apart from this involving two reversals the line between Ashburys and Baguley Fold isn't certified for passenger use, only freight and ECS movements (it's how empty stock gets from Newton Heath to Piccadilly). You definitely would have reversed at Salford.

When I was at York we did have one job from Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough (on a Saturday) that went via Ordsall Chord, through Manchester Victoria and then via Ashburys in Passenger Service.

 

[zwk500]

Apart from this involving two reversals the line between Ashburys and Baguley Fold isn't certified for passenger use, only freight and ECS movements (it's how empty stock gets from Newton Heath to Piccadilly).

The Sectional Appendix begs leave to disagree (NW7027 is also passenger rated). No booked service does not necessarily mean not passenger rated. Nearly every route between two passenger-rated lines is itself passenger rated nowadays (the direct link from Oxley TMD to Stafford is one of the few I can think of off the top of my head), it tends to be loops, sidings or dead-end freight routes that are not Passenger rated.

 

[Ianno87]

The Sectional Appendix begs leave to disagree (NW7027 is also passenger rated). No booked service does not necessarily mean not passenger rated. Nearly every route between two passenger-rated lines is itself passenger rated nowadays (the direct link from Oxley TMD to Stafford is one of the few I can think of off the top of my head), it tends to be loops, sidings or dead-end freight routes that are not Passenger rated.
View attachment 82041

The route has been used for passenger diversions in the past (I've done Victoria to Glossop on a 150!), and it did have a TPE route-learner diversion until a couple of years' back.

However, not aware of any passenger services having used the Phillips Park South-Baguely Fold curve.

Plus the reversal at Ashburys required from Piccadilly is on a designated Goods Line (DG on your image above) , so would need special dispensation to be used in passenger service)

 

[zwk500]

However, not aware of any passenger services having used the Phillips Park South-Baguely Fold curve.

Plus the reversal at Ashburys required from Piccadilly is on a designated Goods Line (DG on your image above) , so would need special dispensation to be used in passenger service)

The odd railtour might have gone over the Philips Park South-Baguley Fold curve at some point, but yes not aware of any regular passenger services (but it is passenger rated )

Yes, good point about the reversal, although I was specifically replying to the point about the line between Ashburys and Baguley Fold. If Ashton Moss Jn was blocked trains between Stalybridge and Victoria still have the alternate route via Philips Park South to avoid sending any more trains through the Castlefield Corridor without needing special permission. Also, if for whatever reason Trains off the Hope valley ran via Guide bridge or Reddish North they have access to Victoria without needing the Ordsall Curve.

 

[leedslad82]

Ive been on a fair few tpe overnighters from manc to leeds after a night out. Often they were diverted via manc vic and they always did a reversal at salford crescent.

 

[Altfish]

I did the Salford Crescent reverse late one evening when travelling from the Airport to Leeds.

I was a bit confused when we arrived into the through platforms at Piccadilly!

I once boarded a Leeds train at Oxford Road, it was due to go Piccadilly/Guide Bridge/ Stalyvegas; but something had failed at Piccadilly and we reversed out and stopped just short of Salford Crescent before going forward via Victoria to Leeds

 

[xotGD]

I once boarded a Leeds train at Oxford Road, it was due to go Piccadilly/Guide Bridge/ Stalyvegas; but something had failed at Piccadilly and we reversed out and stopped just short of Salford Crescent before going forward via Victoria to Leeds

These days you wait at Oxford Road and the train doesn't turn up because it has reversed at Piccadilly and gone via Guide Bridge. Happened to me several times.

 

[Crossover]

The odd railtour might have gone over the Philips Park South-Baguley Fold curve at some point, but yes not aware of any regular passenger services (but it is passenger rated )

If Philips Park South is the Stalybridge end of the junction, I have done it twice on a railtour (it is the side from Victoria I have yet to do) - the most intriguing of which was Denton to Guide Bridge via Ashburys

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If Philips Park South is the Stalybridge end of the junction, I have done it twice on a railtour (it is the side from Victoria I have yet to do) - the most intriguing of which was Denton to Guide Bridge via Ashburys

Philips Park South is where you divide for Victoria (via Philips Park West), or Stalybridge (via Baguley Fold).
(map in #12).

 

[gimmea50anyday]

York and Manchester Piccadilly both had night shift turns that ran this way, via Salford crescent, reverse then through Man Vicc and the Calder valley, the 3am ish train off Manchester (can’t remember what time as I’m not York based anymore) was very handy for rolling in to Huddersfield in time for breakfast from the station buffet, a quick phone call in the Elland area would have your bacon buttie and cup of tea ready for your arrival! With a train full of inebriated individuals returning from an evening out in Manchester I always dropped the lights on to half power at Salford which had a calming effect on the punters on board. Very pleasant trains to work those night shifts...

Salford crescent for engineering diversions, I.e weekends, was confusing as some diagrams showed it as a station stop and not a reverse movement, while others didn’t. I always offered it as a station stop where allowed as it was often more convenient for connections.

In contrast now there is a Sheffield turn that runs via Wakefield Kirkgate and Huddersfield then through Diggle and guide bridge for man Picc, again this is for route retention for engineering diversions

 

[L&Y Robert]

I'm over 80 now, so my memory stretches back into 40s and 50s. In 1951 I attended the Burnley Grammar School, and went on an expedition that had been organised to take school children from the valley towns (Blackburn, Accrington, Burnley, Nelson and Colne) to the Festival of Britain. A long train left Burnley (Bank Top) in the late evening of 17th May 1951, and traveled via Blackburn, Bolton, Manchester Victoria and then somehow Stockport. I never worked out how this was achieved, but I can say for certain there were no reversals! The return working during the night 18th - 19th May followed the reverse route.
There was also at this time a regular working from the same towns to London Euston, leaving Burnley at about 13-30 every weekday, with a return working at roughly the same time. I have traveled on both these services and I am sure there were no reversals anywhere. Difficult to do in those days, steam hauled (Black 5) lengthy train (10 coaches). I have a vague recollection of the train moving slowly round squeeky curves, and of a level crossing somewhere east of Manchester with bemused bystanders watching the proceedings.

 

[Ianno87]

I'm over 80 now, so my memory stretches back into 40s and 50s. In 1951 I attended the Burnley Grammar School, and went on an expedition that had been organised to take school children from the valley towns (Blackburn, Accrington, Burnley, Nelson and Colne) to the Festival of Britain. A long train left Burnley (Bank Top) in the late evening of 17th May 1951, and traveled via Blackburn, Bolton, Manchester Victoria and then somehow Stockport. I never worked out how this was achieved, but I can say for certain there were no reversals! Th

Manchester Victoria > Miles Platting > Ashton Moss > Denton Jn > Reddish South > Heaton Norris Jn > Stockport.

Route still very much possible today (just that Ashton Moss-Denton Jn has no regular passenger service, and Denton Jn-Heaton Norris is only the Stockport-Stalybridge parliamentary service).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There was also at this time a regular working from the same towns to London Euston, leaving Burnley at about 13-30 every weekday, with a return working at roughly the same time. I have traveled on both these services and I am sure there were no reversals anywhere. Difficult to do in those days, steam hauled (Black 5) lengthy train (10 coaches). I have a vague recollection of the train moving slowly round squeeky curves, and of a level crossing somewhere east of Manchester with bemused bystanders watching the proceedings.

The regular Burnley-Euston would have gone the same way via Ashton Moss and Denton from Victoria.
My 1958 timetable shows it starting being to and from Skipton via Colne.
The fastest route would have been via Lostock Hall and straight up the WCML, or from Blackburn via Chorley to Wigan, but nothing seemed to do that!

 

[Ken H]

I'm over 80 now, so my memory stretches back into 40s and 50s. In 1951 I attended the Burnley Grammar School, and went on an expedition that had been organised to take school children from the valley towns (Blackburn, Accrington, Burnley, Nelson and Colne) to the Festival of Britain. A long train left Burnley (Bank Top) in the late evening of 17th May 1951, and traveled via Blackburn, Bolton, Manchester Victoria and then somehow Stockport. I never worked out how this was achieved, but I can say for certain there were no reversals! The return working during the night 18th - 19th May followed the reverse route.
There was also at this time a regular working from the same towns to London Euston, leaving Burnley at about 13-30 every weekday, with a return working at roughly the same time. I have traveled on both these services and I am sure there were no reversals anywhere. Difficult to do in those days, steam hauled (Black 5) lengthy train (10 coaches). I have a vague recollection of the train moving slowly round squeeky curves, and of a level crossing somewhere east of Manchester with bemused bystanders watching the proceedings.

I think the Harwich train went that way to get to sheffield, at least for some of its existance.

 

[L&Y Robert]

The regular Burnley-Euston would have gone the same way via Ashton Moss and Denton from Victoria.
My 1958 timetable shows it starting being to and from Skipton via Colne.
The fastest route would have been via Lostock Hall and straight up the WCML, or from Blackburn via Chorley to Wigan, but nothing seemed to do that!

A few years later, and if we were going to London (Motor Show etc.) we (our family) realised that it was a lot less cumbersome to take the local service to Preston, then a main line train to Euston. Trains from Burnley to Manchester in those days went via Accrington, Haslingden, Bury, Clifton Junction, Manchester Vic. Then there was always this hurried walk, often in the rain, (sometimes a taxi) to 'London Road Station' as it then was. There never seemed to be quite enough time to do this in comfort, so the route we discovered via Preston was much easier.

At that time the route via platforms 12-13 at Picadilly was impossible, the Altrincham electrics used Oxford Road as a terminus, and the little bit from Picadilly to Oxford Road also terminated there, in the opposite direction, as it were. As a student, I used the Altrincham service from Oxford Road, and remember that there was a rusty "Through Siding" there, but no service traversed it. And the Windsor Link didn't exist then either, although it was talked about. It was a sad time for the railways, the mindset then was that railways were in terminal decline, new construction was out of the question, road transport was the future.

 

[Ken H]

what way did the rose grove - Paignton train go? Indeed did it go anywhere near manchester at all?

 

[L&Y Robert]

what way did the rose grove - Paignton train go? Indeed did it go anywhere near manchester at all?

Rose Grove - Paignton?
Never knew there was such a thing!

 

[Ken H]

Rose Grove - Paignton?
Never knew there was such a thing!

mentioned on here before - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-served-by-intercity.52578/page-6#post-837115
Summer saturdays only. I remember seeing it in the all line passenger timetable in the 1970's

 

[Senex]

Manchester Victoria > Miles Platting > Ashton Moss > Denton Jn > Reddish South > Heaton Norris Jn > Stockport.

Route still very much possible today (just that Ashton Moss-Denton Jn has no regular passenger service, and Denton Jn-Heaton Norris is only the Stockport-Stalybridge parliamentary service).

Those trains were booked via Droylsden Station Jn-Denton Jn, not via Ashton Moss North Jn (i.e. the route was direct to Ashton Moss Jn, not via Ashton Moss North Jn-Ashton Moss South Jn-Crowthorn Jn-Ashton Moss Jn).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This link has the RCH map of junctions and ownership in the area:

Droylsden railway station - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Today's Ashton Moss Jn is a remnant of the MS&L/GC network (hence the Woodhead-era electrification masts in the undergrowth!).
I hadn't realised the LNWR had its own Ashton Moss Jn for the Droylsden line near Denton.