Before the Ordsall Chord

[mspljd1990]

Ive been on a fair few tpe overnighters from manc to leeds after a night out. Often they were diverted via manc vic and they always did a reversal at salford crescent.

Never happened with me, though for some reason they would pass through Wakefield Kirkgate rather than Dewsbury.

 

[Class 170101]

Never happened with me, though for some reason they would pass through Wakefield Kirkgate rather than Dewsbury.

Wakefield Kirkgate is another diversionary route

 

[30907]

I think the Harwich train went that way to get to sheffield, at least for some of its existance.

It went Philips Park-Ashburys-Romiley when it was a through train from/to Scotland in the early 80s - I used it to get back to Cambridge after staying with one of the Station Supervisors in Preston. December 81 or April 82.

 

[unlevel42]

Bangor Sheffield Autumn/Winter 1973 Sundays
Bangor to Manchester Victoria normal route.
Manchester Victoria to Sheffield Midland via Guide Bridge, Woodhead, Penistone, Sheffield Victoria(non stop) Nunnery reverse to Sheffield Midland.
On at least three occasions these train terminated at Sheffield Victoria. These journeys where the fastest journeys I made between Bangor and Sheffield via Manchester. I know because I arrived TOO early for the 7o'clock opening of the pub. Fastest times now are via Tamworth but they are not allowed and or the timetable does not fit. Those where the days when the ticket office seemed to know and to advise.

 

[185]

Just to add to this, pre-chord, this was a regular job of mine.

TPE night diagrams when sent Picc-Vic-Leeds could be either
Salford Crescent - Changing ends on the platform.
or, occasionally
Ordsall Lane Jn (Chat Moss Line) - Changing ends behind the signal.

Often, there were two drivers, one working it Airport to Vic & finish, the second boarding at Picc going passenger to Vic, to then taking it on to York. A few of them would sit in both ends to save time - so when the train arrived at Salford Crescent, one would quickly key out, the other key in and signal permitting, off we'd go towards Vic near instantly. Easy?

No. One night, there were two sets, the guard sat in the middle (front cab of the rear set). Upon arrival, they jumped out to move to the adjacent cab. On shutting the first middle cab door.... within a split second, off the train sailed away... minus the guard ...20 minutes late off Vic awaiting taxi.

Wasn't me, was on a beach at the time

TPE nights could also see diversions -
via Hebden Bridge, Heeley Mills, Bradford Interchange, Altofts, Woodlesford, Castleford, Brighouse, Greetland, Ashton and very occasionally.... mainline... which meant you'd arrive 30 mins early.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would I be right in thinking a summer Nottingham to Blackpool service in the 1970's used the lines from Ashburys to Miles Platting described earlier in this thread?

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I'm over 80 now, so my memory stretches back into 40s and 50s. In 1951 I attended the Burnley Grammar School, and went on an expedition that had been organised to take school children from the valley towns (Blackburn, Accrington, Burnley, Nelson and Colne) to the Festival of Britain. A long train left Burnley (Bank Top) in the late evening of 17th May 1951, and travelled via Blackburn, Bolton, Manchester Victoria and then somehow Stockport. I never worked out how this was achieved, but I can say for certain there were no reversals! The return working during the night 18th - 19th May followed the reverse route.
There was also at this time a regular working from the same towns to London Euston, leaving Burnley at about 13-30 every weekday, with a return working at roughly the same time. I have travelled on both these services and I am sure there were no reversals anywhere. Difficult to do in those days, steam hauled (Black 5) lengthy train (10 coaches). I have a vague recollection of the train moving slowly round squeeky curves, and of a level crossing somewhere east of Manchester with bemused bystanders watching the proceedings.

Would the level crossing that you mention above be the one that was next to the former Clayton Bridge station, as that was "east of Manchester"?

 

[grumpyoldman01]

At that time the route via platforms 12-13 at Picadilly was impossible, the Altrincham electrics used Oxford Road as a terminus, and the little bit from Picadilly to Oxford Road also terminated there, in the opposite direction, as it were. As a student, I used the Altrincham service from Oxford Road, and remember that there was a rusty "Through Siding" there, but no service traversed it. And the Windsor Link didn't exist then either, although it was talked about. It was a sad time for the railways, the mindset then was that railways were in terminal decline, new construction was out of the question, road transport was the future.

This isn't how I remember Oxford Road at the time you mention

Arriving from Deansgate, there were two terminal platforms on the north side of the layout, both electrified at 1500v DC; generally, the most northern one was used by trains taking the ex LNWR route via Warrington Bank Quay Low Level to Ditton Junction, and the second one by the Altrincham electrics

There were then three "through" platforms, all electrified at 25kv AC; I've put the through in inverted commas for - although it was constructed as a through - the most northerly one had a buffer stop at its western end and was used by EMUs which had already passed through Piccadilly's through platforms (and at the time where the only ones which regularly used them). This meant that there was a cross platform interchange between the DC and AC electrics - the Altrincham electrics had previously run through to the three South Junction platforms at what was called London Road before it's re-building.

There was on the south side of the layout an island platform, but I never saw this used by a passenger train during this period; however, weren't there freight trains at that time between Ordsall Lane and Ardwick?

A photo taken in about 1961 is attached; it was taken from near the site of the buffer stop, and the Altrincham electrics used the platform on the left

It went Philips Park-Ashburys-Romiley when it was a through train from/to Scotland in the early 80s - I used it to get back to Cambridge after staying with one of the Station Supervisors in Preston. December 81 or April 82.

I went the other way from Sheffield Mid to Victoria behind a class 45 on what I thought was a Nottingham - Glasgow train round about the same date; I also went Nottingham - Harwich in March 1976 (on my way to see the last of DB steam at Rheine), but I don't know where the boat train started from at that time - I do remember that it arrived in Nottingham from Sheffield via the Erewash Valley and was hauled by a class 47.

The only other time I travelled on the Harwich boat train was between Manchester Central and Dinting round about 1960; Stanier (perhaps Fairburn) 2-6-4 tank as far as Guide Bridge, then an EM2, and I think it was still called the 'North Country Continental' !

 

[30907]

I went the other way from Sheffield Mid to Victoria behind a class 45 on what I thought was a Nottingham - Glasgow train round about the same date; I also went Nottingham - Harwich in March 1976 (on my way to see the last of DB steam at Rheine), but I don't know where the boat train started from at that time - I do remember that it arrived in Nottingham from Sheffield via the Erewash Valley and was hauled by a class 47.

As late as 1980 the Continental only ran as far as Manchester Picc (and there was still a Nottingham-Glasgow via Settle). I don't have 81 or 82 timetables to hand, but ISTR one of the Manchester-Scotland services starting back from Nottingham as well as the Harwich train.

 

[Whistler40145]

IIRC I travelled on a Harwich Parkeston Quay to Manchester Victoria which was routed via Nottingham, Sheffield (reverse), then via Ashburys and Phillips Park, I'm pretty sure it was around the time of the Manchester Piccadilly remodelling project in the mid 1980s

 

[Ianno87]

IIRC I travelled on a Harwich Parkeston Quay to Manchester Victoria which was routed via Nottingham, Sheffield (reverse), then via Ashburys and Phillips Park, I'm pretty sure it was around the time of the Manchester Piccadilly remodelling project in the mid 1980s

Pre-1988 it had to go that way - there was no Windsor Link.

 

[Whistler40145]

Pre-1988 it had to go that way - there was no Windsor Link.

The Windsor link is the on the Salford Crescent side of Manchester, whereas we would've arrived from the east end of Manchester Victoria down Miles Platting bank

 

[Ianno87]

The Windsor link is the on the Salford Crescent side of Manchester, whereas we would've arrived from the east end of Manchester Victoria down Miles Platting bank

Didn't the Harwich train continue on to Blackpool around about that time?

 

[Whistler40145]

Didn't the Harwich train continue on to Blackpool around about that time?

I remember that it should've continued to Blackpool North, but because of overrunning engineering work at Manningtree, the service was terminated at Manchester Victoria, with a replacement DMU forward to Blackpool North, which was routed through Salford Central

 

[Bevan Price]

To add to previous comments, long before Salford Crescent was opened, it had been possible to reverse at Ordsall Lane station, whose platforms (without buildings) survived for many years after it was closed. Apart from diversions due to engineering work, I think that the only regular passenger services using Ordsall Lane Jn to Castlefield Jn had been the through portions from Bolton Great Moor Street to London Euston, which I think had ceased before WW2.

 

[High Dyke]

I think the Harwich train went that way to get to sheffield, at least for some of its existance.

It did. I travelled over the Man Vic - Phillips Park South - Ashburys - Sheffield route a couple of times in the early 1980's. Mentioned here in this article.

From Scotland, trains would be joined at Carstairs Junction, with all-electric traction up to Preston. Typical carriages would be the air conditioned Mark 2Fs, built in 1971. South of Preston, these would be hauled by a Class 47 diesel locomotive, with the resultant 10-12 carriage train gracing Victoria's long through platforms. After Miles Platting, the train would continue to Sheffield via the Phillips Park and Ashburys junctions, taking in Marple, New Mills and the Hope Valley line.

 

[Fleetwoodflyer]

Didn't the Harwich train continue on to Blackpool around about that time?

It was certainly running to Blackpool North in 1987 because we used it for journeys to Nottingham and back for day trips to visit my parents.

 

[Whistler40145]

I remember that we had sailed overnight from Hook of Holland and we got the train on a Sunday morning and sat for over a hour waiting for engineering work to finish around Manningtree, it was definitely 47 and Mk2s, definitely wasn't air cons and a 45/1 dropped on the other end at Sheffield for the run via the Hope Valley and Ashburys to Manchester Victoria, think its was 1985

 

[Efini92]

Before the Ordsall Chord I remember eastbound TPEs out of Manchester Piccadilly would loop through Victoria and then head towards Leeds along the Calder Valley Line and then through Brighouse. The Ordsall Chord is only recently built but I can't find on Google maps where this former line that linked Piccadilly with Victoria is, anyone remember?

Do you mean the line that ran through Ardwick?

 

[Rail Ranger]

Some TPE trains on Sundays or late at night/early in the morning used to reverse at Salford Crescent to get from Piccadilly to Victoria to reach the Calder Valley route.

 

[30907]

Do you mean the line that ran through Ardwick?

Without rehashing the whole of the thread, I think the answer is "no."

However, there was at one time a curve from Piccadilly round to the Ashburys-Philips Park route (which I think you are referring to) and an east-to-north curve at Miles Platting, so it was possible to get from Piccadilly to the Calder Valley without reversing. Not sure when it closed.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

This isn't how I remember Oxford Road at the time you mention

Arriving from Deansgate, there were two terminal platforms on the north side of the layout, both electrified at 1500v DC; generally, the most northern one was used by trains taking the ex LNWR route via Warrington Bank Quay Low Level to Ditton Junction, and the second one by the Altrincham electrics

There were then three "through" platforms, all electrified at 25kv AC; I've put the through in inverted commas for - although it was constructed as a through - the most northerly one had a buffer stop at its western end and was used by EMUs which had already passed through Piccadilly's through platforms (and at the time where the only ones which regularly used them). This meant that there was a cross platform interchange between the DC and AC electrics - the Altrincham electrics had previously run through to the three South Junction platforms at what was called London Road before it's re-building.

That sounds like Manchester Oxford Road for much of the 1960's, when two bays on the North side of the station were used for the 1500v DC services ex Altrincham, this following the rebuilding of the station.

One of these two bays (located in the corner of the station where modern day Platform 5 now is) was then taken out of use towards the end of the decade and everything at Manchester Oxford Road then converted to 25kv AC over a long weekend in early May 1971.

 

[Efini92]

Without rehashing the whole of the thread, I think the answer is "no."

However, there was at one time a curve from Piccadilly round to the Ashburys-Philips Park route (which I think you are referring to) and an east-to-north curve at Miles Platting, so it was possible to get from Piccadilly to the Calder Valley without reversing. Not sure when it closed.

It ran from ardwick junction to mildand junction (I think it was called) on the Ashburys line. It was electrified with the 1500v DC overheads so it was still open in the 1950’s. The viaduct is still there, sadly the connections to it have been lost at both ends.
When the ordsall chord opened they it was the first time Victoria and Piccadilly would be connected. Technically it’s true as Piccadilly was called London road when they were last connected.

 

[Senex]

It ran from ardwick junction to mildand junction (I think it was called) on the Ashburys line. It was electrified with the 1500v DC overheads so it was still open in the 1950’s. The viaduct is still there, sadly the connections to it have been lost at both ends.
When the ordsall chord opened they it was the first time Victoria and Piccadilly would be connected. Technically it’s true as Piccadilly was called London road when they were last connected.

It was closed 21 September 1964, so it was still available after the re-naming of London Road and thus Victoria and Piccadilly were once connected and the PR people were (as so often) wrong in what they said about the Ordsall Chord.
Before the big London Road/Piccadilly layout changes for the EML electrification the two L&Y tracks coming in from the Miles Platting direction crossed the two GC tracks on the level at Ardwick Jn to run into the L&NW tracks. I travelled over this double-line connection in 1959 in the course of Stockport-Manchester diversions in connection with engineering work. When the layout changes were finished, what remained was a single-line connection, still crossing the GC lines but now running into the L&NW fast lines under the new pairing by use.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Perhaps it is all semantics but were London Road/Piccadilly and Victoria ever really 'connected' via the series of spurs and junctions to the east? I.e. by timetabled passenger services that people could use for meaningful journeys.

Whatever the criticism of the Ordsall Chord it does at least provide plenty of connections, which I used quite a lot pre-COVID for handy Hope Valley-Huddersfield trips, changing only at Piccadilly.

 

[Efini92]

The problem with it is the rest of the infrastructure around it.
I’m sure it’s created a lot more paths out of Piccadilly now that TPE’s don’t have to block the whole station whilst crossing from the slow lines but the castlefield corridor struggles and so does Victoria.

 

[xotGD]

Whatever the criticism of the Ordsall Chord it does at least provide plenty of connections, which I used quite a lot pre-COVID for handy Hope Valley-Huddersfield trips, changing only at Piccadilly.

You could do that long before the Chord opened.

 

[Dr Hoo]

You could do that long before the Chord opened.

Yes, of course. I was trying to make the point that the Ordsall Chord had nevertheless become a routine through route. I am still waiting for any news on whether any passengers ever made a 'regular' journey between the two main Manchester stations via the Ardwick/Miles Platting 'eastern' route.

 

[Richard Bailey]

Before the Ordsall Chord I remember eastbound TPEs out of Manchester Piccadilly would loop through Victoria and then head towards Leeds along the Calder Valley Line and then through Brighouse. The Ordsall Chord is only recently built but I can't find on Google maps where this former line that linked Piccadilly with Victoria is, anyone remember?

I notice no one seems to have mentioned the line that turned left almost IMMEDIATELY out of Piccadilly, just before Ardwick Station. The viaduct remains and is clearly visible on Google Maps (satellite view) along what is appropriately called Viaduct Street. However, this would not remove the need to reverse out of Victoria for Leeds as it joined the Philips Park Line just north of the A635 (Ashton Old Road) and entered Victoria westbound.

 

[Ianno87]

I notice no one seems to have mentioned the line that turned left almost IMMEDIATELY out of Piccadilly, just before Ardwick Station. The viaduct remains and is clearly visible on Google Maps (satellite view) along what is appropriately called Viaduct Street. However, this would not remove the need to reverse out of Victoria for Leeds as it joined the Philips Park Line just north of the A635 (Ashton Old Road) and entered Victoria westbound.

And, from the Huddersfield direction would offer no real advantage compared to simply running via Guide Bridge.

 

[Richard Bailey]

Yes, of course. I was trying to make the point that the Ordsall Chord had nevertheless become a routine through route. I am still waiting for any news on whether any passengers ever made a 'regular' journey between the two main Manchester stations via the Ardwick/Miles Platting 'eastern' route.

Station Staff at both Piccadilly and Victoria are extremely reluctant to talk about the services using the Ordsall Chord. Indeed on a number of occasion they have denied the existence of such services. They have obviously been told to state that cross-city services are provided by the tram, not the train. Buying a ticket for the airport from Victoria is the way round this.

And, from the Huddersfield direction would offer no real advantage compared to simply running via Guide Bridge.

Indeed. Does anyone when this line was discontinued? Single or double track?