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Best All Round DMU

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LE Greys

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Best all-round DMU: None.

Precisely:

They are all designed for doing different jobs and operating in different areas, so it's a case of apples and oranges.

Still, how about this:
  • Best DMU for suburban stopping services - Class 172 for all the reasons mentioned above
  • Best DMU for a light branch line - Class 156. It has sufficient capacity to handle quite a few people, accelerates well, is cheap to operate, is reliable and climbs hills nicely. 153s are a bit short, but can do the same job at a pinch.
  • Best DMU for long, slow lines with light traffic in Scotland or Wales - Class 156. They are also fairly comfortable and can be outfitted with decent luggage space, so I don't mind spending long periods on one. (I also prefer opening windows to air-con at slow speeds)
  • Best DMU for routes with a combination of rural stopping and fast runs on main lines - Class 158. It may be a bodge, but this was what the 158 was built for. Sacrificing some of the advantages of the 156 by increasing the gear ratio, but counteracting by increasing the power, produced a workable compromise.
  • Best DMU for a mainly main line route with some stopping runs over light lines - Class 170. Once again, a compromise, but they can still hold to SP limits. They are quick, ride well at speed and the air-con works.
  • Best DMU for all main line stoppers/semi-fasts/light main lines - Class 175. Other than not being able to hold SP limits, all the advantages of a 170 plus better acceleration and a proper door layout.
  • Best DMU for lighter than HST main line work - either 180 or 222. Depends on precisely what you want from them, but they both work.
 
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150001

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I though you meant the panelling:roll: Yes the doors and windows did shake pretty bad especially when a fast moving train flew past.
 

Kneedown

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You raise the point regarding poor forward vision on Sprinter stock, which is obviously due to them being fitted with end gangways, as opposed to the very good view out of a 170. Whilst it must be a nuisance from a Driver's point of view, I would have to suggest that, overall, being fitted with end gangways is a definite positive point?!

It's more than incovenient. I'm of the opinion that it's dangerous as you have no chancr of seeing and giving warning to anyone emerging from the offside.
I see no reason for them at all in this day and age. Build trains long enough in the first place and avoid the coupling/uncoupling and extra shunts that impact negatively on performance.
If this is impractical then it surely isn't rocket science for passengers to spread out evenly along a platform to ensure even loading.
 

HSTEd

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It's more than incovenient. I'm of the opinion that it's dangerous as you have no chancr of seeing and giving warning to anyone emerging from the offside.
I see no reason for them at all in this day and age. Build trains long enough in the first place and avoid the coupling/uncoupling and extra shunts that impact negatively on performance.
Who will pay for the extra costs of the additional coaches, and trains (more drivers) required, or for the reduced income from reduced ticket sales caused by trains being broken in the middle to avoid running four coaches on services that require two coaches at most? (Such as Liverpool-Norwich)

If this is impractical then it surely isn't rocket science for passengers to spread out evenly along a platform to ensure even loading.

So I assume you want DOO to be standard and for there to be no trolley or similar services? Without a through gangway the length of the entire train the guard's ticket checking abilities are hamstrung to the extent where it is only the rather nebulous "safety" argument that remains.
And what use is a trolley that can only reach half the train.

And frankly in most situations if something is so close you can't see it because its hidden by the edge of the gangway, it is too close for you to do anything about it anyway.
 

LE Greys

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There are alternatives that try to combine the best elements of the two, although I don't know if this is practical with our smaller loading gauge.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/DSB_IC3_Fred.JPG

On the other hand, better placement of the windscreens and possibly retractable gangways should be helpful. The 309s and 442s seemed to have adequately-wide windscreens and gangways, but the Sprinter windows seem a bit squeezed in.
 

yorksrob

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It's more than incovenient. I'm of the opinion that it's dangerous as you have no chancr of seeing and giving warning to anyone emerging from the offside.
I see no reason for them at all in this day and age. Build trains long enough in the first place and avoid the coupling/uncoupling and extra shunts that impact negatively on performance.
If this is impractical then it surely isn't rocket science for passengers to spread out evenly along a platform to ensure even loading.

Apart from InterCity routes, there must be very few lines that justify long trains throughout the day. Being able to alter the length of trains is a must in this day and age, and being able to have them staffed with only one guard is equally important. Also, if someone or something does emerge from offside I would have thought that there isn't a lot a driver can do when at speed anyway other than blow the horn (drivers feel free to correct me on this !).
 

Kneedown

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Who will pay for the extra costs of the additional coaches, and trains (more drivers) required, or for the reduced income from reduced ticket sales caused by trains being broken in the middle to avoid running four coaches on services that require two coaches at most? (Such as Liverpool-Norwich)

Why would you need more Drivers?
Two coaches at most required for Liv-Norwich? Clearly you dont use use the service!



So I assume you want DOO to be standard and for there to be no trolley or similar services? Without a through gangway the length of the entire train the guard's ticket checking abilities are hamstrung to the extent where it is only the rather nebulous "safety" argument that remains.
And what use is a trolley that can only reach half the train.

Why on earth would DOO become standard? A Guard is perfectly capable of moving between units at stations and working fron either. There are also such things as ATE's.
As regards the trolleys they are normally operated by outside contracters so the onus is on them to sort that out.

And frankly in most situations if something is so close you can't see it because its hidden by the edge of the gangway, it is too close for you to do anything about it anyway.

Maybe too close to stop, but not to blow the horn. There was a near miss at Burton Joyce last week that may not have been quite as close had the Driver had a better view.
 

TDK

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I can't believe no one has mentioned class 168's by far the best unit amoungst the rest - the 172 is very jerky and noisy from underneath and well down my list - the 168 is a good train to drive as well.
 

tbtc

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I can't believe no one has mentioned class 168's by far the best unit amoungst the rest - the 172 is very jerky and noisy from underneath and well down my list - the 168 is a good train to drive as well.

What's the difference between a 168 and a 170 (to drive)? They seem pretty similar as a passenger
 

Kneedown

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Apart from InterCity routes, there must be very few lines that justify long trains throughout the day. Being able to alter the length of trains is a must in this day and age.

At least the trains would be out earning revenue, which they are not doing when sitting in siding waiting for the next peak!

Voyagers and Meridiens regularly run doubled up on long distance serviced without many complaining about the lack of gangways, however there seems to be great clamour for gangways on short distance units where people are on board for shorter periods of time and moving between units isnt a neccessity.
 

HSTEd

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Why would you need more Drivers?

Instead of one train running from A to B and splitting to serve C and D, you must now run one train from A to C and another from A to D.
This results in more trains being run and thus more drivers being required.

Two coaches at most required for Liv-Norwich? Clearly you dont use use the service!

The service currently runs as four carriages between Nottingham and Liverpool, with two carriages east of Nottingham normally being easily sufficient for loadings.
Under this proposal you would have to run four carriages throughout or split the service, neither of which are really viable options.

Why on earth would DOO become standard? A Guard is perfectly capable of moving between units at stations and working fron either. There are also such things as ATE's.

Because he could only check one unit's tickets between each station, meaning that half the train or more would definitely not have its tickets checked.

Since people boarding the service for one stop (such as Sheffield to Manchester on the Liv-Norwich) could easily see which unit the guard had left and thus which he was going to board, they could ensure that they always boarded the section with no guard.

As regards the trolleys they are normally operated by outside contracters so the onus is on them to sort that out.

So... essentially you don't care if they are completely eliminated because they are not directly employed by the railway?


At least the trains would be out earning revenue, which they are not doing when sitting in siding waiting for the next peak!

This does not occur in the case of the Liverpool-Norwich as the extra two carriages are normally attached to the next train to Liverpool to run back.
But either way, if your train can be cut in half easily that means that one half of the train could be sent back to the depot and the off peak time becomes maintenance time for up to half the fleet.

This would enable the service to be run more intensively overall.

Voyagers and Meridiens regularly run doubled up on long distance serviced without many complaining about the lack of gangways, however there seems to be great clamour for gangways on short distance units where people are on board for shorter periods of time and moving between units isnt a neccessity.

Voyagers were never meant to run doubled up in service, doing so is actually extremely cost inefficient, and as far as I know the reason doubled up Meridian runs occur these days is because EMT recieved the Hull Trains Class 222s as capacity enhancement and they would only be able to use half the carriages if they had just chopped and changed the intermediate carriages.

Intercity trains need gangways if running in multiple even more than short distance units, thanks to catering duplication and such, but this is made far more difficult with the problems with having a flat front on a train built for 125mph.
 
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Yew

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At least the trains would be out earning revenue, which they are not doing when sitting in siding waiting for the next peak!

Voyagers and Meridiens regularly run doubled up on long distance serviced without many complaining about the lack of gangways, however there seems to be great clamour for gangways on short distance units where people are on board for shorter periods of time and moving between units isnt a neccessity.

Running in service, running up fiel and track access costs, then increased maintainance, whilst attracting no extra passangers. A brilliant way to save money.

No operator provides 125 mph gangwayed stoc It probably would be possible to make a 125mph gangway, however that could have either a higher fuel consumption or a complex design that may be prone to failure, with higher maintainance costs.
 

RPI

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FGW 150/1 for me, not much to go wrong with them, nice big cab's, door controls throughout the train, and relatively clean and tidy and they are pretty quick and stop very well.
170's make too much noise for what they are and seem underpowered, yes they're more advanced than a 150 but then they should be as they're the next generation! and the cabs are more secure having that vestibule door that keeps the scrotes out when theyre trying to attack you on a friday night!
 

es373

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Chiltern Railway's 168's are at the top of my list.. Would grade them 5 out of 5 on all categories.
 

knight2004

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I'm quite fond of the 156s but they are getting older but with a decent refurb can still look good ( EMT have done a good interior refresh!) I feel we will have these units for a long time to come. i do quite like their engine noises- you know when its going to accelereate even though they are quite noisy
 

yorksrob

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At least the trains would be out earning revenue, which they are not doing when sitting in siding waiting for the next peak!

Voyagers and Meridiens regularly run doubled up on long distance serviced without many complaining about the lack of gangways, however there seems to be great clamour for gangways on short distance units where people are on board for shorter periods of time and moving between units isnt a neccessity.

To an extent, yes, it's better to run a train than to not run one, if the stock's available. But I still think it's better to tailor the length of the train where possible, particularly where you have large variations in numbers of passengers over the day.
 

TDK

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What's the difference between a 168 and a 170 (to drive)? They seem pretty similar as a passenger

I didn't say they were different to drive - the 168 especially the 4-car sets are quicker and the cooling fans are less noise, oh yes the brakes on a 168 are better performing than a 170 as well these are the only differences I have noticed.
 

tbtc

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I didn't say they were different to drive - the 168 especially the 4-car sets are quicker and the cooling fans are less noise, oh yes the brakes on a 168 are better performing than a 170 as well these are the only differences I have noticed.

Cheers - I was interested to see whether the 170 was an improvement or a step backwards from the 168 in any respect (as there's little difference between them as a passenger)
 

sprinterguy

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I didn't say they were different to drive - the 168 especially the 4-car sets are quicker and the cooling fans are less noise, oh yes the brakes on a 168 are better performing than a 170 as well these are the only differences I have noticed.
I wonder how that is, as surely there is little to no mechanical difference between a 168 and a 170 (Albeit an interim cab design on the first five)? Curious.
 

TDK

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I wonder how that is, as surely there is little to no mechanical difference between a 168 and a 170 (Albeit an interim cab design on the first five)? Curious.

A 4-car will always bee better on performance than a 3 or a 2. This is due to the drag factor and power to weight ratio I believe. Maybe the 168's are better maintained but a 168 3 car in my opinion will out do a 170 3 car on performance especially the braking.
 

D365

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Aren't the 170s limited to 150 perfomance, or is that just when they are coupled.
 

notadriver

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A 4-car will always bee better on performance than a 3 or a 2. This is due to the drag factor and power to weight ratio I believe. Maybe the 168's are better maintained but a 168 3 car in my opinion will out do a 170 3 car on performance especially the braking.

In theory of a 3 car, the lead car and engine has to overcome drag as you say TDK leaving the other 2 engines to power the train. Obviously in. 4 car, even more engine power is available just to power the train. Only applicable for diesel trains :roll:
 

Lrd

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Aren't the 170s limited to 150 perfomance, or is that just when they are coupled.
Only when they are coupled as you do not want the 75mph 150 doing 90/100mph, it's not very good for their poor engines/transmission.
 

Kneedown

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Instead of one train running from A to B and splitting to serve C and D, you must now run one train from A to C and another from A to D.
This results in more trains being run and thus more drivers being required.

I see what you're getting at, but in the first scenario you still need the additional Driver to work the split portion forward. I can see this being beneficial at somewhere like Georgmas Jct where a train splits to go to Wick and Thurso respectively, but not on less rural parts of the network. I concede that additional paths will need to be created though.



The service currently runs as four carriages between Nottingham and Liverpool, with two carriages east of Nottingham normally being easily sufficient for loadings.
Under this proposal you would have to run four carriages throughout or split the service, neither of which are really viable options.

As someone who works regularly over both sections of the route i would suggest that both are very viable options. 2 coaches on the Norwich sector can just about cope on an average day, but there will still be a lot of luggage in the gangways so 4 cars would'nt really be a massive overkill.
As regards splitting the service at Nottingham, this may well be a real possibility if the EMT franchise ends up being carved up.


Because he could only check one unit's tickets between each station, meaning that half the train or more would definitely not have its tickets checked.

They would with an ATE or RPI in the other portion, plus there are more barriered stations about these days.


So... essentially you don't care if they are completely eliminated because they are not directly employed by the railway?

No reason why an additional trolley couldn't be on the front portion, with the pittance the companies pay their staff it wouldn't hit profits too much, but on the Liverpool-Norwich run it's hit or miss whether you get a trolley on in the first place, and even then not on the Norwich sector.


This does not occur in the case of the Liverpool-Norwich as the extra two carriages are normally attached to the next train to Liverpool to run back.
But either way, if your train can be cut in half easily that means that one half of the train could be sent back to the depot and the off peak time becomes maintenance time for up to half the fleet.

Correct insofar as the Nor-Liv route is concerned, but this creates it's own problems with unit shunts causing congestion in the station (extra Driver required for this!) Frequent coupling problems causing delays, and the age old problem of passengers being in the wrong portion of the train despite frequent announcements and gangways between the 158's.
Maintenence time is already factored in and planned, so the additional portion will be sitting idle unless it has a defect that requires urgent attention. Additional maintenance will require additional fitters unless planned maintenence is to be impacted.



Voyagers were never meant to run doubled up in service, doing so is actually extremely cost inefficient, and as far as I know the reason doubled up Meridian runs occur these days is because EMT recieved the Hull Trains Class 222s as capacity enhancement and they would only be able to use half the carriages if they had just chopped and changed the intermediate carriages.

Intercity trains need gangways if running in multiple even more than short distance units, thanks to catering duplication and such, but this is made far more difficult with the problems with having a flat front on a train built for 125mph.

The 222's have run doubled up since before the Hull Trains units arrived.
150's, Pacers, 170's etc etc, all run regulary in multiple with few problems caused by the lack of gangways. We did it ourselves on the Liverpools for a long time when we had 170's, and XC do it frequently on the Cardiff's.
 
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