Best camcorder for me?

[Condor7]

I would appreciate some advice on buying a hand held camcorder but one I can also sit on a tripod.

I have no real interest in photography other than to film trains. My current camera takes stills and has a built in video, but I only ever use either it on the automatic setting and would prefer not to have to have one where I have to start working out what settings to use for differing circumstances.

That being said I would prefer to pay that bit extra for a good quality HD (or better) picture with a built in motion stabiliser for hand held use.

On a recent similar thread a Panasonic HC V380 was recommended which i thought was quite cheap price wise, but is there anything better it would be worth investing in?

I look forward to your suggestions, many thanks.

 

[AM9]

I would appreciate some advice on buying a hand held camcorder but one I can also sit on a tripod.

All 'normal' styled camcorders have standard 1/4 inch plus 'so-called VHS pin' mountings which work with video tripods (i.e. tripods with two-axis pan/elevation heads.

I have no real interest in photography other than to film trains. My current camera takes stills and has a built in video, but I only ever use either it on the automatic setting and would prefer not to have to have one where I have to start working out what settings to use for differing circumstances.

All consumer camcorders are designed around automatic operation where the lens aperture, the shutter speed and amplifier gain (ISO) controls all work together to keep the image within the range of acceptable picture. Some of them have manual overrides which can be useful under difficult lighting conditions.

That being said I would prefer to pay that bit extra for a good quality HD (or better) picture with a built in motion stabiliser for hand held use.

These days, the three manufacturers worth considering in the marketplace (Sony, Panasonic and Canon) have all their consumer models capable of at least 1080P (- and 50p which is valuable for moving subjects). Sony and Canon have models further up their range that have '4K' capability, (4K in their cotext is 3840x2160p modes but only at 25p). Also, they all take reasonable stills pictures.

On a recent similar thread a Panasonic HC V380 was recommended which i thought was quite cheap price wise, but is there anything better it would be worth investing in?

The real step up for shooting moving objects over which you have no control, and often little warning of their arrival is the current high preformance of lens stabilisation. Both the higher-end Sony and Panasonic models have gimbal mounted lens/sensor systems. This allows good stabilisation when the camcorder is hand-held, way above all but the best systems in stills cameras. I have a predecessor of the Sony AX33 and have recently advised a relative in the purchase of a Panasonic VX-990 both of which have stabilisation that can easily be used to produce smooth video even when on the move, (walking or riding).

I would recommend visiting a local John Lewis store that has most of the common models available for viewing and handling and the assitants are usually knowledgeable and helpful without being pushy. JL also (in my experience) provides good support after you have purchased from them.

Currently I would recomment the Panasonic VX-990 as the best model but you should try to view and handle one to see if it suits you.
Hope the above helps.

 

[Condor7]

Firstly AM9 thanks very much for such a informative and helpful response.
The V380 I mentioned can be bought around £250, the VX 990 is £699.
I have seen a VX 998 for £499.

How much better would you (or anyone else) say the VX990 is compared to the VX980?

Thanks.

 

[ac6000cw]

One very significant difference is that the VX990 has a viewfinder, the VX980 doesn't. In base picture quality I doubt there is any real difference (they both use the same image sensor), but the 990 probably has a few more features/bells and whistles, but only you can decide if any of those are important to you.

Note the V380 uses a significantly smaller area image sensor, so you can expect the low-light performance to be worse than the VX990/980.

(...and I'd agree with pretty much everything AM9 said).

 

[AM9]

One very significant difference is that the VX990 has a viewfinder, the VX980 doesn't. In base picture quality I doubt there is any real difference (they both use the same image sensor), but the 990 probably has a few more features/bells and whistles, but only you can decide if any of those are important to you.

Note the V380 uses a significantly smaller area image sensor, so you can expect the low-light performance to be worse than the VX990/980.

(...and I'd agree with pretty much everything AM9 said).

I was just about to say most of what you have pointed out but to add, with the viewfinder, the resolution is three times greater (1555.2k) than the larger flip-out LCD panel (460.8k) which may be an issue if in manaul focus rather than auto-focus mode.
The absence of the viewfinder makes the VX980 camcorder body slightly smaller and lighter then the VX990, but strangely enough, battery drain is slightly higher despite having less electronics. The same type and size of battery is used on both models.
Other than that, I agree that the actual image recorded should be the same quality.

The next issue is how to edit the resulting footage.

 

[Condor7]

Firstly apologies for the typo, I said a VX998, but that should have been a VX980. I think however you picked up on that. Just in case I have put a link to the VX980 below.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/232295559041

Is this the one you thought? Also I thought the flip out bit was the viewfinder, so if not what is it please?

Thanks

 

[ac6000cw]

The 'flip out bit' is the LCD screen (which is what most people, most of the time, will use to frame the picture etc.), but a viewfinder - which displays the same information - can be useful when it's very sunny (making it hard to see the LCD screen clearly) or, as AM9 mentions, when you are trying to do manual focus. It's not an essential, but it's definitely a 'nice to have' in some situations.

LCD/OLED display screen = something you view from a distance, like a TV.
Viewfinder = something you put your eye very close to, like the eyepiece of a telescope or binoculars.

If you want to compare prices, Camerapricebuster is a good place to start - Panasonic camcorders: http://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk/Panasonic/Panasonic-Camcorders, Sony camcorders: http://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk/Sony/Sony-Camcorders (click on a model to go to a list of retailers and prices for it).

Note that there is a Panasonic cashback promotion running over the summer on some of their models e.g. £50 cashback on the VX980.

 

[Condor7]

Thanks to both you guys for some excelent plain English advice, I have found it very helpful.

The next issue is how to edit the resulting footage.

Yes you are correct, what would you recommend please?

 

[AM9]

Thanks to both you guys for some excelent plain English advice, I have found it very helpful.



Yes you are correct, what would you recommend please?

Choosing a video editor is really one of how you get on with the interface and how much you are prepared to spend. It is also probably the most taxing thing that a home computer will be expected to run.*
Assuming you would use a PC rather than effectively being tied to Apple software, - I personally have used the Vegas family of editors since 2005/6. Originally a Sony Creative Software product, they have now sold all the Vegas applications to the German firm Magix. The product is (unofficially) well supported online by thousands of videos on You Tube from basic getting to know the application up to quite ingenious tricks and advanced editing procedures. There are other video editors available which you may find more appropriate. Free trials (usually up to one month) are available from Magix and their competitors.
If you wish to discuss further, please PM me.

*possibly excepting some high action video games.

 

[ac6000cw]

+1 from me for the Sony/Magix Vegas family - http://www.vegascreativesoftware.com/gb/?cHash=88ba0c657c723b2ee0292a583b04da6e . The low cost 'Movie Studio' versions will do almost anything you are likely to need as an amateur video editor. I have both an older version of the 'Pro' product and a recent version of the 'Studio' product, and I rarely use the 'Pro' software because the 'Studio' one is faster/simpler to use (and the basic processing 'under the hood' is the same).

The other major serious consumer video editing application is probably Adobe Premiere Elements - http://www.adobe.com/uk/products/premiere-elements.html (but I've got no personal experience of using it).

 

[richieb1971]

I'm going to chip in here.

My camera is a Panasonic XC-800 and it at least 5 years old and had an MSRP of £500. Even then 1080p at 50fps was really good. You can see my latest footage here -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXcpYVl_kcQ

This was accomplished on a tripod. All video and pictures were taken with the same camera (XC-800).

In the past 7 years since I started filming I have come up against lots of problems filming trains. So here goes.


1) Don't rely on the camera to pick up the numbers of the locos. The blur at close range masks the numbers. Your more likely to see the numbers at lower frame rates.

2) Microsoft moviemaker is a free editor. I tried others, but if ALL you want to do is join up clips and upload them to youtube like I do. Its enough. All the others have so many bells and whistles finding the fade, finding the widget that does this and that, its painfully slow if you don't know your stuff. Moviemaker doesn't have all those bells and whistles, but you can have fun straight away, its self explanatory for the most part.

If you want presentation stuff though, get something like Sony Vegas. You know, multiple screens flying around with different footage in each one. But if you just want to join up your clips, this is overkill.

3) Something I picked up on ages ago on cameras is a lack of 50hz 60hz switch. This isn't something you should be worried about, but something you should know about.

All camcorder manufacturers are Japanese (well most). Their country runs everything at 60hz (60 frames). If you buy a camera in Japan its 60hz. If you buy a camera in the USA its 60hz. If you buy a camera in Europe, its 50hz.

This isn't a problem in itself. If you use Chrome as a browser it supports 50hz 50fps in youtube (like my video).

However, if you use a non chrome browser, you are restricted on a PC to 60hz updates. This means that when your train goes past it will stutter.

So when buying equipment try to keep the 50hz chain going to stop the stutter.

This means -

50hz camera, 50hz display, 50hz compatible browser, changing the editor to 50hz.

If you do all this. Your trains will not stutter.

Ironically you could buy a 60hz camera from the USA. And all gear is compatible with 60hz.

Even more ironic, phones are 100% globally identical. Which means you don't get this regional 50hz setting on anything.


To give you an indication of one wrong setting. This is an old video at Basingstoke with my editor set to HD, this is defaulting to 30fps and causes a stutter when trains are fairly close (100 metres or less away).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXgoD6g10Ds&t=1888s - Look at 06:13 at the boxes carefully. See the stutter? Now go back to the video I posted above at Linslade and see the difference. Same camera, same editor, same everything. Just one setting difference.

You'll notice the difference more if you use a 50hz compatible display for both tests.

Lastly, if you cannot see what I'm talking about, don't worry about anything at all. Eventually you might see the difference. It all depends on what you understand and what equipment you have.

If anyone else has any questions about these findings i'm all ears.

 

[richieb1971]

An easy test you can do for 50hz is watch the news on iplayer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcnews

If the scrolly writing going across the bottom is as smooth on your computer as it is on your TV. Your good for 50hz. If it stutters slightly more, its a 50hz to 60hz conversion.

For the record my monitor, PC and graphics card all support 50hz. I made sure of that before buying. But I believe it would have just been easier to buy from the USA. At least then no matter what device people are using to watch my videos, it would appear perfectly smooth.

 

[AM9]

2) Microsoft moviemaker is a free editor. I tried others, but if ALL you want to do is join up clips and upload them to youtube like I do. Its enough. All the others have so many bells and whistles finding the fade, finding the widget that does this and that, its painfully slow if you don't know your stuff. Moviemaker doesn't have all those bells and whistles, but you can have fun straight away, its self explanatory for the most part.

If you want presentation stuff though, get something like Sony Vegas. You know, multiple screens flying around with different footage in each one. But if you just want to join up your clips, this is overkill.

I think that is a bit of an oversimplification. MS Moviemaker was a free application with Windows from Windows 2000 until January this year. It is now obsolete and not available for Windows 10.
It's functionality was (and still is) geared to simple assembly of clips and then adding various types of novelty effects like monochrome, posterised, edge detection, blur and the inevitable sepia. These may be appropriate to some but I can't see how they would help rail videos. There is no provision for colour grading, gamma setting and contrast curves; things that are necessary to compensate for consumer camera footage taken in less than ideal lighting conditions.
I have been using Vegas, (both movie studio and pro for many years) and have never used or even seen multiple screens flying around except with other club filmmakers who have just discovered the box of transitions and effects. What I have seen and used is very easy to apply basic dissolves, multi camera mixes and rescue of quite poor footage taken in poor lighting where there was no time to set the camera up correctly.
In my opinion, anybody wishing to spend £500+ on a camcorder would be wasting its capabilities choosing an editor with very limited fuctionality just because the software was free.

3) Something I picked up on ages ago on cameras is a lack of 50hz 60hz switch. This isn't something you should be worried about, but something you should know about.

All camcorder manufacturers are Japanese (well most). Their country runs everything at 60hz (60 frames). If you buy a camera in Japan its 60hz. If you buy a camera in the USA its 60hz. If you buy a camera in Europe, its 50hz.

This isn't a problem in itself. If you use Chrome as a browser it supports 50hz 50fps in youtube (like my video).

However, if you use a non chrome browser, you are restricted on a PC to 60hz updates. This means that when your train goes past it will stutter.

So when buying equipment try to keep the 50hz chain going to stop the stutter.

This means -

50hz camera, 50hz display, 50hz compatible browser, changing the editor to 50hz.

If you do all this. Your trains will not stutter.

Ironically you could buy a 60hz camera from the USA. And all gear is compatible with 60hz.

Even more ironic, phones are 100% globally identical. Which means you don't get this regional 50hz setting on anything.


To give you an indication of one wrong setting. This is an old video at Basingstoke with my editor set to HD, this is defaulting to 30fps and causes a stutter when trains are fairly close (100 metres or less away).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXgoD6g10Ds&t=1888s - Look at 06:13 at the boxes carefully. See the stutter? Now go back to the video I posted above at Linslade and see the difference. Same camera, same editor, same everything. Just one setting difference.

You'll notice the difference more if you use a 50hz compatible display for both tests.

Lastly, if you cannot see what I'm talking about, don't worry about anything at all. Eventually you might see the difference. It all depends on what you understand and what equipment you have.

If anyone else has any questions about these findings i'm all ears.

It's not quite like you say about 50/60Hz based frame rates. The reason that Japan, much of the American continent and a few other places have 60Hz (actually 59.94Hz in the US) is becase the ac mains frequency runs at that speed. That means that lighting has a c.60Hz flicker and using a 50Hz based frame rate would cause a 10Hz flicker whenever that lighting was in frame. The obverse also applies when using a c.60Hz camera in 50Hz land (Europe, Africa, most of Asia, and some of the Carribean), - the 10Hz flicker would be quite obtrusive unless a very wide shutter angle was used.
Professional camcorders and some high-end SLRs capable of good video, usually allow selection of 50Hz or 60Hz modes, particularly those that are sold as one model across the globe. Mobile phones are not considered serious enough video cameras to accommodate both frame rates so the dollar speaks there and they are all 30fps or 60fps.
Computers similarly are based on a 60Hz standard, (the original 1981 PC standards were based around NTSC video standards - not colour) and have remained tied to 60Hz frame rates ever since. The improvements that have mirrored TV advances, including HD and now UHD/4K have meant that PC hardware (both graphics hardware and display monitor) are capable of 50 and 60Hz based frame rates, but by default, the slightly lower flicker rate of 60Hz tends to be the one used.
When I play the news programme that you linked, I get exactly the same view on Microsoft Edge and Mozilla Firefox as Google Chrome, the picture is smooth but the scrolling text jerks slightly as it has been created by the BBC as a 50Hz based movement.

 

[richieb1971]

If your monitor is 50hz compatible like mine is, the jerky frame rate is gone like it should be.

The reason Camcorders are 50hz in Europe is because that is the broadcasting standard in Europe. If you were to film in 60hz and submitted that footage to a TV station they would have to convert it which would give similar effects to what I explained the other way around.

There should be a 50/60hz switch on camcorders, either mechanical or firmware controlled. The cameras are identical in each region its just the software that dictates the recording format. Since the introduction of HDTV it really is a sour position for me. Our TV's all support 60hz as its part of the blu ray standard and as such, all camcorders should be 60hz globally. Who wouldn't want the extra 10fps?

Your Sony Vegas comment made me laugh. I cannot for the life of me see the average rail enthusiast needing 90% of those features. They are not making Avatar, they are just filming trains. I see a lot of DSLR guys touching up pictures and such, but I've rarely if ever seen a railway video touched up, even the professional ones don't do it. If you look on youtube over 80% of the videos are handheld scrappy footage. Using a $500 editor on that wouldn't miraculously make it movie standard.

Moviemaker is the most basic package, but it is still highly used by most people I know and it does run on W10, even though its no longer supported. Whether or not you can download it still I am not sure.

Forgive me. I am sure you believe I don't see the benefits of Sony Vegas. I do, but the time and effort to what is effectively manipulating the effect of the weather and lighting isn't what I would call the true experience.

 

[AM9]

If your monitor is 50hz compatible like mine is, the jerky frame rate is gone like it should be.

I didn't say that it has a 'jerky frame rate', I said that "the scrolling text jerks slightly" which is because the frame rate is 60Hz as a norm for the BBC as internet browser content. I also said that monitors (and graphics hardware) have evolved alongside TV (in fact many cheaper monitors share the same physical components as TVs). The text scrolling is generated live during broadcast by real-time insert hardware. Obviously, it is created for the native broadcasting system, i.e. 576i25 and/or 1080i25/1080psf25 in EBU areas. When displayed on a smart TV or using AV kit such as a Blu-Ray player or set top box, it is rendered correctly for the system. When displayed on a PC as just another web page (which includes iplayer) it renders for the native frame rate in use, usually 56, 60 or 72 fps. No broadcast TV programming in the UK yet has 60p video.

The reason Camcorders are 50hz in Europe is because that is the broadcasting standard in Europe. If you were to film in 60hz and submitted that footage to a TV station they would have to convert it which would give similar effects to what I explained the other way around.

The reason broadcasting in Europe is 25fps in Europe is because the mains frequency is nominally 50Hz. Early TV sets would not have been viable if the field rate was not close to the ac mains frequency as smoothing of internal power supplies was quite rudimentary at the time. A consequence of having ac lighting was that scan frequencies had similarly to be at or around 50 fields per second, hence the 25fps.
With all due respect to the OP, we are talking about consumer camcorders here. Other than for news footage, which if important enough, a TV company will take anyway and process it themselves. Modern framestore converters produce conversions that are indistinguishable from the same subject shot without conversion.

There should be a 50/60hz switch on camcorders, either mechanical or firmware controlled. The cameras are identical in each region its just the software that dictates the recording format. Since the introduction of HDTV it really is a sour position for me. Our TV's all support 60hz as its part of the blu ray standard and as such, all camcorders should be 60hz globally. Who wouldn't want the extra 10fps?

As I said above, we are talking about consumer camcorders. Like many other things, the manufacturers segment their geographical markets, - in the case of consumer camcorders it's by frame rates. There are sometimes models available in the middle east that cover both rates but that is to a) minimise stockholding and b) to sell to those who live and frequently travel into countires with differing systems. As for the extra 10fps, it makes no practical quality difference if the data rate is the same especially on consumer quality material.
The video function that comes with stills cameras is largely a low-cost add-on (much like mobile phones) whereas with higher quality SLRs, the much lower production quantities require that single models are produced for all markets.
Professional video cameras generally have switched frame rates because that's what their users want and are prepared to pay for, recognising that the numbers of professional cameras produced is a fraction of much lower-cost consumer kit.

Your Sony Vegas comment made me laugh. I cannot for the life of me see the average rail enthusiast needing 90% of those features. They are not making Avatar, they are just filming trains. I see a lot of DSLR guys touching up pictures and such, but I've rarely if ever seen a railway video touched up, even the professional ones don't do it. If you look on youtube over 80% of the videos are handheld scrappy footage. Using a $500 editor on that wouldn't miraculously make it movie standard.

Who mentioned a £500 editor. Vegas Movie studio costs from £40. I wouldn't spend £500 on a camera and then complain about spending less than 10% of that on an editor that would do the footage justice. That's less than a couple of reasonable SD cards. I suppose some would though.

Moviemaker is the most basic package, but it is still highly used by most people I know and it does run on W10, even though its no longer supported. Whether or not you can download it still I am not sure.

I have downloaded it today and it confirmed what I have always thought of it, - very limited and no opportunity to do more than slap clips together, unless blur, sepia and solarising are specifically needed.

Forgive me. I am sure you believe I don't see the benefits of Sony Vegas. I do, but the time and effort to what is effectively manipulating the effect of the weather and lighting isn't what I would call the true experience.

I think you may have misread my comment. I said that tools are needed to make poor footage acceptable, -even just usable. Most shots of things like rail subjects are to mere mortals without exclusive access to set up photo sessions, taken on the fly. So cameras are usually set to auto which means that light levels change as the subject moves through the scene. The sun shines from whichever direction it happens to be in and much detail can be lost in the shadows. Basic correction tools such as colour curves, gamma correction etc., can be used very quickly to vastly improve the visibility of the subject. There's nothing 'arty' about that. The end result is nearer to what the human would see without all the shortcomings of a compromised camera's adjustments on the fly.
If I want to do anything serious in colour grading, I use DaVinci Resolve, a true professional grading and editing suite, which surprise surprise is actually free.

 

[richieb1971]

I thought you were talking about this product.

Forgive me I don't know the differences and the naming conventions sound a like.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/VEGAS-Pro-...TF8&qid=1501290045&sr=8-4&keywords=sony+vegas

 

[richieb1971]

Since I am here and you know your stuff. I don't disagree with much of what you said.


What DSLR would you get for 16:9 photo shots?
Do any 4k cameras support 50/60fps yet?

Sorry to the OP for hijacking the thread but its still on topic.

 

[Condor7]

Sorry to the OP for hijacking the thread but its still on topic.

Not a problem, it is all interesting, but must admit my brain is hurting a bit.

 

[richieb1971]

Not a problem, it is all interesting, but must admit my brain is hurting a bit.

No reason for your head to hurt. Almost any camera will do especially if you nudge up the price to the £500 range.

Some considerations -

Spare battery (standard battery lasts about an hour/hour and 30). I got one of those bigger batteries as a backup and use it more often than the pack in battery. It lasts 2hrs 41 but is heavier which makes using the camera more tiresome.

Anything Sony or Panasonic will be fine.

Sony is more expensive by default because of the brand name.

The cameras raw footage takes up loads of space, so buy a really big card. Mine is 64gb and I only delete it down every couple of months. so in other words mine is probably too big for what I use it for.

Most cameras are easy to use out of the box.

Mine has a switch for replay (to see footage you have shot on the LCD screen), picture mode for photographs and video. You'll be ready to go straight away its not rocket science.

I would get the camera, use moviemaker the 1st time and see how you go. If you feel its restrictive and not enough by all means upgrade it to Sony Vegas that costs £40.

If you want to ask further Qs down the road, don't hesitate to ask. But honestly, a 2017 camera will/should be better than mine and you've seen my results (if you clicked on the youtubes). My camera is a 2012 model I believe.

 

[AM9]

Since I am here and you know your stuff. I don't disagree with much of what you said.


What DSLR would you get for 16:9 photo shots?
Do any 4k cameras support 50/60fps yet?

Sorry to the OP for hijacking the thread but its still on topic.

OK, I have a Canon 550D and a 70D, both of which do 1080p25 and 1080p30. The stills on true SLRs are always 3:2 or 4:3 but cropping them is easy, especially on an editor timeline
I recently purchased a Panasonic GH5 which shoots UHD (3840x2160) at 50p and 60p. It also shoots true '4K' which is 4096x2160. UHD is very useful for cropping down to HD. Vergas does this well.
The real reason I have this camera though is because it will shoot footage in 4:2:2 (much better colour detail) and also 10 bit which gives much opportunity to grade without stepping.

Yes I know it's well outside the scope of the original post here but my view is (sorry about the pun) if you don't capture good quality video in the first place, years downstream when technology moves on, the old stuff will not be as useful, or even acceptable. That is very relevant to me at the moment as I am making a movie with footage and stills that date back to 2004.

 

[AM9]

I thought you were talking about this product.

Forgive me I don't know the differences and the naming conventions sound a like.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/VEGAS-Pro-...TF8&qid=1501290045&sr=8-4&keywords=sony+vegas

No problem. Vegas sweems to be the only package that has a consistent user interface from the most basic consumer version up to the top 'pro' version. It's basics can be learnt very quickly yet creative editing is always there for those who want it. The problem (for me) with other editors like Adobe Premiere Elements, - the consumer version of the Pro version of Premeire, is that there is too much hand holding. It asks you what sort of a movie you want to make and then makes all the decisions and tough luck if it wasn't quite what you wanted. Then when you do want to progress, it is different and is only available for an annual subscription, so hardly suitable for non-business use.

 

[ac6000cw]

Not a problem, it is all interesting, but must admit my brain is hurting a bit.

I'm not surprised...

The 25/50 frames-per-second (fps) versus 30/60 fps situation is like different railway track gauges - it only becomes an issue (that you need to be aware of) when you want to cross the boundary between the two systems. As AM9 mentioned, some cameras have the Talgo-like ability to work on both systems (I own one) but I stay with the European standard 25/50 fps, not least because (like AM9) I have a lot of older footage all shot at that standard, which makes it easier to mix-and-match old and new when editing.

The really important thing when you edit your video is to make sure the 'Project Settings' (as it's usually called in the software) match the footage e.g. if the camcorder was set to record 1920 x 1080 (frame size) at 50 fps video, set the software to the same settings. Quite often when you import the first video file into a new project, the software will analyse the file and ask 'Do you want to set the project to match the file?' to automate the process for you.

If you do have the 'wrong' settings, the software will still work and produce an output file, it's just that it might end up in the 'dog's breakfast' category of quality. I once watched a video presentation at a club meeting where the quality was so poor that (despite it being originally shot on a decent DSLR, as far as I know) it looked like poor-quality VHS tape footage... I know I'm more sensitive to video and sound quality than most people, having spent much of my working life designing electronics to process it, but some problems stand out like sore thumbs...

(And re. the general picture quality of modern consumer cameras - anything decent could blow out-of-the-water broadcast-standard cameras of not that long ago - we've had a revolution in quality versus price in recent years).

 

[richieb1971]

I'm going to have a look at some cameras on amazon and see what the going rate is for what I want and report back.

 

[richieb1971]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-FDR-A...=1501355221&sr=8-1&keywords=sony+4k+camcorder

https://www.parkcameras.com/p/P6367...MIlp-h-K6v1QIV3antCh1WBQPFEAQYBSABEgIVOfD_BwE

 

[AM9]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-FDR-A...=1501355221&sr=8-1&keywords=sony+4k+camcorder

https://www.parkcameras.com/p/P6367...MIlp-h-K6v1QIV3antCh1WBQPFEAQYBSABEgIVOfD_BwE

The problem with the balanced optical steady shot models is that the so-called manual exposure settings don't really help, except for manual focussing.
If you set the aperture to manual, the shutter speed and gain (ISO setting) compensate so the manual setting can be cancelled out. It's the same for shutter speed and gain, i.e. the other two cancel the effect out. I have a CX730 which is a full HD version of the AX33. I'm not absolutely sure, but it would be worth checking up on the AX53 for that issue. Other than that, the BOSS feature is ecellent inkeeping the image steady. Do remember to turn it off though when mounting it on a tripod as you will get stabilisation overshoot and kick back which may spoil a perfect pan shot.
The Panasonic VX990 that I suggested for a relative does seem to allow more than one manual setting at a time.

 

[Condor7]

Some great advice it has been really helpful.
One quick question, when you talk about battery life being an hour to an hour and a half, does that mean an hour to an hour and half of actual filming?

 

[richieb1971]

Some great advice it has been really helpful.
One quick question, when you talk about battery life being an hour to an hour and a half, does that mean an hour to an hour and half of actual filming?

It's not a perfect science. But your battery only depletes whilst the LCD is open and on. Its not depleting when its shut. You can leave a charge on the battery for a whole year and it will still be there when you turn it on again. I believe the shutter opening and closing will use the battery up quicker, so if your doing lots of opening and closing of the LCD screen the shutter will open and close as well, so your eating minutes just by doing that.

The pack in battery usually fits exactly into its slot. If you get an extra battery with extra long life its usually bigger and therefore sticks its butt out at the back. This also makes the camera heavier. With the pack in battery the balance of weight is much nicer. When you put an extended life battery on your camera the back feels much heavier and therefore the strain on your hand is going to be more. With a tripod its not an issue.


To be honest the camera is the least of your worries. You can buy anything and its just going to get you a picture on the screen. An equal, if not more money will need to be spent on your computing power to edit the show.

If your using a laptop or something that kicks up the fan speed when hot, I wouldn't get a 4k camera. You will need lots of memory for 4k, the rendering will take literally hours for 30 minutes of footage.

If you go 1080HD its not going to be that much of a problem.

If you downgrade to 720 HD, anything will do. Smilevideotrains uses a 720 camera and they cost about £40. Perhaps if your budget is tight and you just want to play around to see how it goes you should start with something like that?

I don't know which camera he uses but his videos are here -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTq86DP2KsE


Here is one -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/PowerLead-...=1501424765&sr=8-37&keywords=720+video+camera

Of course, you've probably got something that records video in your home. Most phones record video nowadays. Its probably best to play around with something you can get your hands on and try editing it with some free software like moviemaker, upload it to youtube and show us the results.

 

[ac6000cw]

One quick question, when you talk about battery life being an hour to an hour and a half, does that mean an hour to an hour and half of actual filming?

The 'best case' battery life figures manufacturers quote are usually based on putting the camcorder on a tripod, turning it on, hitting 'record' and seeing how long it is before it turns itself off when the battery runs out.

A more typical usage scenario, which involves turning it on, waiting for something to happen, zooming in and out to frame things how you want, hitting 'record', turning it off (then repeat sequence n-times), will result in shorter battery life in terms of how much actual recording time per battery charge.

The moral of this is don't go out for the day without having at least one spare (fully charged*) battery with you. As to whether you want to pay the sometimes eye-watering OEM prices for extra batteries, or go with decent 3rd party versions instead you'll have to decide. I'm usually in the carefully chosen 3rd party camp (not least because you can quite often buy three of them for the price of one OEM battery), but my experience over the years is that they don't last as long per battery (maybe 10-20% down) and lose charge faster after charging (self-discharge when they are just sitting in the camera bag).

(*it's all too easy to grab the camera bag, check it's got spare batteries, then find out later that you've forgotten to charge them since the last trip... )

 

[AM9]

The 'best case' battery life figures manufacturers quote are usually based on putting the camcorder on a tripod, turning it on, hitting 'record' and seeing how long it is before it turns itself off when the battery runs out.

A more typical usage scenario, which involves turning it on, waiting for something to happen, zooming in and out to frame things how you want, hitting 'record', turning it off (then repeat sequence n-times), will result in shorter battery life in terms of how much actual recording time per battery charge.

I've also found that the better lens stabilisation gets, the more demand they make on battery charge. If the camera is being used handheld, the gimbal motors are working most of the time. The motors are small but they need the speed to correct as the movement happens.

The moral of this is don't go out for the day without having at least one spare (fully charged*) battery with you. As to whether you want to pay the sometimes eye-watering OEM prices for extra batteries, or go with decent 3rd party versions instead you'll have to decide. I'm usually in the carefully chosen 3rd party camp (not least because you can quite often buy three of them for the price of one OEM battery), but my experience over the years is that they don't last as long per battery (maybe 10-20% down) and lose charge faster after charging (self-discharge when they are just sitting in the camera bag).

(*it's all too easy to grab the camera bag, check it's got spare batteries, then find out later that you've forgotten to charge them since the last trip... )

There seems to be three levels of camcorder batteries:

1) the OEM product which can cost a lot but is the most reliable and generally highest capacity for their size.
2) the decent battery manufacturer, usually about half the price but works almost as well as the OEM ones and can be charged in the same way as the OEMs. Hahnel are quite good in this respect.
3) the Ebay/Amazon special, very cheap, (10-20% of OEM) and usually need a different charger. These batteries are OK for emergency backup for when the better batteries die just before you finish for the day, but I wouldn't regard them as anywhere trustworthy.

Over the years, the prime camcorder manufacturers have regularly brought out new battery ranges for each new camera. This is an to embody new chip devices that without being present, the camera will not power-up. Similar to inkjet printer cartridges, battery aftersales are a cash cow that they don't want to lose.

 

[ac6000cw]

I've also found that the better lens stabilisation gets, the more demand they make on battery charge. If the camera is being used handheld, the gimbal motors are working most of the time. The motors are small but they need the speed to correct as the movement happens.

Agreed.

There seems to be three levels of camcorder batteries:

1) the OEM product which can cost a lot but is the most reliable and generally highest capacity for their size.
2) the decent battery manufacturer, usually about half the price but works almost as well as the OEM ones and can be charged in the same way as the OEMs. Hahnel are quite good in this respect.
3) the Ebay/Amazon special, very cheap, (10-20% of OEM) and usually need a different charger. These batteries are OK for emergency backup for when the better batteries die just before you finish for the day, but I wouldn't regard them as anywhere trustworthy.

Over the years, the prime camcorder manufacturers have regularly brought out new battery ranges for each new camera. This is an to embody new chip devices that without being present, the camera will not power-up. Similar to inkjet printer cartridges, battery aftersales are a cash cow that they don't want to lose.

I've also used Hahnel batteries in the past and found them very good.

I agree with you about the 'change the battery design frequently' issue, but it's interesting that the Panasonic 'G' series hybrid still/video cameras have gone through four generations (G5/G6/G7/G80) using the same battery design - and the cheapish 3rd party batteries I originally bought for the G5 still work fine in the G80 I bought a few months ago. I can't comment from personal experience on the camcorder battery 'update' situation, since I went down the hybrid still/video camera route some years ago as I didn't like any of the affordable 'tapeless' camcorders around at the time. (My last camcorder was an HDV digital tape-based Sony HC3, vintage 2007/2008 I think...)