Better rail links promised with Heathrow expansion?

[thenorthern]

According to news reports this morning the Government has promised better rail links to London Heathrow Airport for the rest of the country if the third runway is built.

Has there been any announcement of what the proposed better links might be? Also when they say the rest of the country to they mean the South East or the whole country?

Compared to other European countries at the present moment rail links to London Heathrow Airport are very poor for the countries main airport. Looking at major airports in other countries such as Paris Charles De Galle, Amsterdam Schiphol, Frankfurt, Rome Fiumicino, Brussels and Zurich they are all served by large stations with intercity services to all parts of the country. London Heathrow, on the other hand is served by a single London Underground line as well as a relatively expensive Heathrow Express that is not part of the main rail network as well as a commuter service.

Guaranteed benefits for the whole of the UK – commitment to about 15% of new slots for domestic routes, new rail links, and new global opportunities for regional business https://www.gov.uk/government/news/five-point-pledge-on-heathrow-ahead-of-historic-vote

 

[frodshamfella]

Yes it is extremely poor

 

[edwin_m]

Link to HS2 at Old Oak already announced and of some relevance to much of the country. Direct HS2 services to Heathrow ruled out for what I consider are very good reasons. Western Link already announced but relevant only to a limited area. Southern link under consideration but again only relevant to a limited area. Not sure what other possibilities might exist...

 

[RichJF]

Direct West of England to Heathrow services via the Western Approach.
South Coast (Southampton/Portsmouth) to Heathrow via the Southern Approach.

You need a link to lines (either on HS2 or conventional) that end up in the Midlands/East of England to enable cross-country services to travel via Heathrow.

 

[kieron]

Crosscountry run trains from Reading to Newcastle (and beyond) now, so an extension to Heathrow would at least be conceivable in the presence of a western access route.

 

[squizzler]

If the £14 billion expected to be spent on the runway (along with possibly £10 billion needed on related infrastructure improvements outside site perimeter) was spent on the national network (not the South East around this benighted aerodrome) we could probably electrify every railway of note across the land.

 

[swt_passenger]

According to news reports this morning the Government has promised better rail links to London Heathrow Airport for the rest of the country if the third runway is built.

Has there been any announcement of what the proposed better links might be? Also when they say the rest of the country to they mean the South East or the whole country?

Heathrow Western access (was once known as Western Route Access to Heathrow WRAtH) is the more mature project, and Heathrow Southern Access is effectively a sort of partial resurrection of a BAA project abandoned a few years ago originally known as "Airtrack". There are a quite few threads in the infrastructure forum about the two proposals, both would use the unused station box under Heathrow T5, for example these:

Western: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/heathrow-western-link-to-gwml.158365/

Southern: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/heathrow-southern-link.159625/

Those are the latest threads that the search throws up, there have been others...

 

[eisenach]

There can't be many countries in the world that would build the essentials for a railway station under one of the country's main airport terminals and then leave it empty for years on end.
"It's a disgrace", comes to mind !

 

[Ianno87]

There can't be many countries in the world that would build the essentials for a railway station under one of the country's main airport terminals and then leave it empty for years on end.
"It's a disgrace", comes to mind !

Be thankful there was foresight to build in provision at all!

 

[Chester1]

If the £14 billion expected to be spent on the runway (along with possibly £10 billion needed on related infrastructure improvements outside site perimeter) was spent on the national network (not the South East around this benighted aerodrome) we could probably electrify every railway of note across the land.

Its private sector money and some local funding its not out of the DfT budget, the proposed new lines into Heathrow would be private sector too. I know the regions are underfunded but people need to pick their examples carefully.

 

[InOban]

I think the proposed southern access will be privately funded, but the western access is a public project. I would reckon the Heathrow contribution is the station box under T5.

 

[squizzler]

Its private sector money and some local funding its not out of the DfT budget, the proposed new lines into Heathrow would be private sector too. I know the regions are underfunded but people need to pick their examples carefully.

Big infrastructure investments invariably require some sort of private financing mechanism these days. Most schools and hospitals are privately financed under some build and operate arrangement (PFI, etc) as is HS1, the new Hinkley Point reactor, and so on. The East - West rail is also expected to use this arrangement.

Heathrow runway three probably wouldn't be a bankable investment if the consortium behind it didn't have the belief the government would bail it out if things went wrong. Factor in the long legal dispute (and it will be long, believe me) and the decline in inward investment subsequent to dropping out the EU, I'd be willing to wager it'll never happen. All this is with implicit subsidies (such as untaxed aviation fuel and proposed waiver of domestic airport gate tax, not to mention the high social and environmental costs nobody bothers to monetise).

The great western modernisation programme - after massive price inflation - is merely around one tenth the cost of this runway plus enabling works outside airfield perimeter. How can the former be considered bad value for money and the latter be a sound investment? And as the legal disputes proceed, the runway cost will only go one direction - up!

 

[mallard]

Looking at major airports in other countries such as Paris Charles De Galle, Amsterdam Schiphol, Frankfurt, Rome Fiumicino, Brussels and Zurich they are all served by large stations with intercity services to all parts of the country.

Then there's Berlin's main/premier airport, served only by buses... Yes, there's Schönefeld, but that's basically Berlin's equivelent of Gatwick, albeit closer to the city. I suppose that's a bit of a unique situation, since they're both due to be replaced by the 6-years and counting overdue and ~3x over budget Berlin Brandenburg Airport (and the Berlin situation before 1991 meant that providing rail connections to Tegel was problematic at best). At least the Germans don't throw their toys out of the pram after one difficult project...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I may have mis-heard but wasn't Chris Grayling talking about regional air links being guaranteed?
Liverpool was one of those airports guaranteed slots in the proposals, I think Cardiff was another.
Domestic flights will have 15% of the new capacity.
EasyJet is planning new services there.
I would have thought that represented something of a threat to rail services.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-protect-regional-routes-to-heathrow

The government has confirmed it is prepared to intervene to reserve slots at Heathrow for flights to airports in nations and regions around the UK if expansion goes ahead.
Public Service Obligations (PSOs) will be put in place by the UK government to protect routes if required, which would also exempt them from Air Passenger Duty.
It would mark the first time that flights from Heathrow to regional airports have been safeguarded, offering reassurance to people living around the UK that these important links will remain in place

 

[jon0844]

Then there's Berlin's main/premier airport, served only by buses... Yes, there's Schönefeld, but that's basically Berlin's equivelent of Gatwick, albeit closer to the city. I suppose that's a bit of a unique situation, since they're both due to be replaced by the 6-years and counting overdue and ~3x over budget Berlin Brandenburg Airport (and the Berlin situation before 1991 meant that providing rail connections to Tegel was problematic at best). At least the Germans don't throw their toys out of the pram after one difficult project...

It's a lot more than six years overdue isn't it?

 

[mallard]

It's a lot more than six years overdue isn't it?

~6 years after the initial annouced opening date when construction began. I'm aware there was around a decade of political and developmental delay before that.

 

[Non Multi]

I may have mis-heard but wasn't Chris Grayling talking about regional air links being guaranteed?
Liverpool was one of those airports guaranteed slots in the proposals, I think Cardiff was another.
Domestic flights will have 15% of the new capacity.
EasyJet is planning new services there.
I would have thought that represented something of a threat to rail services.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-protect-regional-routes-to-heathrow

That's how hub airports work, unfortunately. Carriers such as BA require the domestic/regional connections to fill their long haul flights from London. Heathrow is in a better position to steal lo-cost carriers like EasyJet away from Luton and Gatwick when the 3rd runway is built.

 

[thenorthern]

Then there's Berlin's main/premier airport, served only by buses... Yes, there's Schönefeld, but that's basically Berlin's equivelent of Gatwick, albeit closer to the city. I suppose that's a bit of a unique situation, since they're both due to be replaced by the 6-years and counting overdue and ~3x over budget Berlin Brandenburg Airport (and the Berlin situation before 1991 meant that providing rail connections to Tegel was problematic at best). At least the Germans don't throw their toys out of the pram after one difficult project...

Berlin Tegal isn't the busiest airport in Germany its only the 4th busiest, with London Heathrow it's by far the busiest in the United Kingdom. Dublin Airport is one I find annoying as there is no rail links and only bus links.

 

[thenorthern]

I hope that CrossRail and HS2 at Old Oak Common isn't what the Government means by better rail links to Heathrow Airport.

 

[Jordeh]

I hope that CrossRail and HS2 at Old Oak Common isn't what the Government means by better rail links to Heathrow Airport.

Together the two do mean much better rail links to Heathrow Airport, although both projects will happen regardless of the runway thankfully.

Two very modern railway lines with high frequencies and one interchange is much faster and easier, than the existing cross-London arrangements that people have to endure. If anything I think they should be worried the additional domestic airline routes will struggle to compete.

 

[Mikey C]

I may have mis-heard but wasn't Chris Grayling talking about regional air links being guaranteed?
Liverpool was one of those airports guaranteed slots in the proposals, I think Cardiff was another.
Domestic flights will have 15% of the new capacity.
EasyJet is planning new services there.
I would have thought that represented something of a threat to rail services.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-protect-regional-routes-to-heathrow

Not especially, the flights will be mainly used by people connecting on to other flights at Heathrow

Air France for example still fly from Heathrow to Paris, hardly anyone will use them because they want to visit Paris, but rather to connect to another AF flight.

 

[thenorthern]

I have written to my local MP to see what the "better links" are going to be.

At the present moment in my constituency which is in the Midlands it would require a minimum of two changes to reach London Heathrow which is odd given that there are direct trains to Southampton Airport and given the fact that both Prestwick International Airport, Dyce (for Aberdeen Airport) and from next year Inverness Airport can both be reached by train by only making one change.

 

[swt_passenger]

I have written to my local MP to see what the "better links" are going to be.

At the present moment in my constituency which is in the Midlands it would require a minimum of two changes to reach London Heathrow which is odd given that there are direct trains to Southampton Airport and given the fact that both Prestwick International Airport, Dyce (for Aberdeen Airport) and from next year Inverness Airport can both be reached by train by only making one change.

I’d be very surprised if his answer is different to the early replies in this thread.

 

[The Ham]

I’d be very surprised if his answer is different to the early replies in this thread.

This is true, however there's benefits in writing to then when some more details arise showing them that their constituents are wanting this to progress and the benefits that it could lead to. As that may encourage another MP to be in support of the scheme.

 

[gallafent]

Here's one proposal for better links. It adds several very worthwhile rapid intranational and international connections. It looks like an excellent piece of infrastructure to me … now somebody needs to fund it.

https://expedition.uk.com/thinking/hs4air-an-m25-for-high-speed-trains/

“HS4Air (High Speed for Air) is a proposed strategic high-speed rail/air connection in south east England developed by Expedition director Alistair Lenczner.

“The proposal is for a new high-speed railway connection that links the existing HS1 line with the planned HS2 line passing via both Gatwick (LGW) and Heathrow (LHR) airports to the south and west of London.”

 

[Jordeh]

Here's one proposal for better links. It adds several very worthwhile rapid intranational and international connections. It looks like an excellent piece of infrastructure to me … now somebody needs to fund it.

https://expedition.uk.com/thinking/hs4air-an-m25-for-high-speed-trains/

“HS4Air (High Speed for Air) is a proposed strategic high-speed rail/air connection in south east England developed by Expedition director Alistair Lenczner.

“The proposal is for a new high-speed railway connection that links the existing HS1 line with the planned HS2 line passing via both Gatwick (LGW) and Heathrow (LHR) airports to the south and west of London.”

It is absolutely bonkers and a needless distraction from real debate. It is just an engineering consultancy coming up with an idea to grab a few headlines and get their name a bit more known. Similarly I think Hyperloop is equally unrealistic and distracts from proper debates about funding rail infrastructure.

There are so many schemes in the UK that would be much more useful and better value for money. Even just linking HS1 and HS2 would be a start (although very unlikely to happen anytime soon).

 

[Dentonian]

According to news reports this morning the Government has promised better rail links to London Heathrow Airport for the rest of the country if the third runway is built.

Has there been any announcement of what the proposed better links might be? Also when they say the rest of the country to they mean the South East or the whole country?

Compared to other European countries at the present moment rail links to London Heathrow Airport are very poor for the countries main airport. Looking at major airports in other countries such as Paris Charles De Galle, Amsterdam Schiphol, Frankfurt, Rome Fiumicino, Brussels and Zurich they are all served by large stations with intercity services to all parts of the country. London Heathrow, on the other hand is served by a single London Underground line as well as a relatively expensive Heathrow Express that is not part of the main rail network as well as a commuter service.

Apart from Paris - France has the most centralist economy in Europe after the UK - all these other Airports are in physically smaller countries and/or more centrally positioned in their respective countries. Given that the plan is already geared towards more domestic air links (presumably, mainly to Scotland) why would better rail links beyond the South East and South central England be needed - unless to abstract yet more business from such as Manchester and possibly Birmingham?

 

[edwin_m]

Apart from Paris - France has the most centralist economy in Europe after the UK - all these other Airports are in physically smaller countries and/or more centrally positioned in their respective countries. Given that the plan is already geared towards more domestic air links (presumably, mainly to Scotland) why would better rail links beyond the South East and South central England be needed - unless to abstract yet more business from such as Manchester and possibly Birmingham?

I think the stated intention is to give more of the UK better access to the wide range of destinations accessible from Heathrow, and also to bolster Heathrow's role as a "hub airport" by increasing the number of flight connections that can be made there and therefore providing more potential passengers to justify more flights to more overseas destinations. It's probably also a means of getting Parliamentary support, since many MPs outside the south-east will hope that their own local airports get more Heathrow flights.

Not sure how this works in practice. Rail already dominates over air for flights between London and as far north as Manchester and is fairly competitive between London and Newcastle. This applies whether thinking about Heathrow or about all the London airports in combination, so it can't just be about lack of capacity at Heathrow. HS2 does two important things here - it cements rail's advantage by shortening journey times and it provides much better connection to Heathrow via Old Oak from those parts of the country where getting there by train currently involves a schlep across London. Both these factors will further reduce the need for flights between Heathrow and the Midlands or Northern England ... so Heathrow probably expects to use that runway capacity elsewhere in the longer term.

The situation is a quite different for Scotland, where even with HS2 and taking access and airport time into account the plane will remain the quickest route to London. It would probably need a 2hr journey for a train from Glasgow or Edinburgh to be competitive when connecting into another flight at Heathrow. This would need high speed infrastructure throughout, which is decades away if ever.

The rail links we are talking about here are more about access to Heathrow from other parts of the south-east region, where access by connecting flight isn't ever going to be a contender.

 

[snowball]

Here's one proposal for better links. It adds several very worthwhile rapid intranational and international connections. It looks like an excellent piece of infrastructure to me … now somebody needs to fund it.

https://expedition.uk.com/thinking/hs4air-an-m25-for-high-speed-trains/

“HS4Air (High Speed for Air) is a proposed strategic high-speed rail/air connection in south east England developed by Expedition director Alistair Lenczner.

“The proposal is for a new high-speed railway connection that links the existing HS1 line with the planned HS2 line passing via both Gatwick (LGW) and Heathrow (LHR) airports to the south and west of London.”

This has its own thread in the high-speed subforum

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hs4air-–-“an-m25-for-high-speed-trains”.161683/

 

[Dentonian]

I think the stated intention is to give more of the UK better access to the wide range of destinations accessible from Heathrow, and also to bolster Heathrow's role as a "hub airport" by increasing the number of flight connections that can be made there and therefore providing more potential passengers to justify more flights to more overseas destinations. It's probably also a means of getting Parliamentary support, since many MPs outside the south-east will hope that their own local airports get more Heathrow flights.

Not sure how this works in practice. Rail already dominates over air for flights between London and as far north as Manchester and is fairly competitive between London and Newcastle. This applies whether thinking about Heathrow or about all the London airports in combination, so it can't just be about lack of capacity at Heathrow. HS2 does two important things here - it cements rail's advantage by shortening journey times and it provides much better connection to Heathrow via Old Oak from those parts of the country where getting there by train currently involves a schlep across London. Both these factors will further reduce the need for flights between Heathrow and the Midlands or Northern England ... so Heathrow probably expects to use that runway capacity elsewhere in the longer term.

Again, though its (literally) where do you draw the line? I accept Birmingham only has a limited number of direct destinations, but Manchester claims over 200 (more than Heathrow, in fact). The problem at MAN is that many are infrequent. As regards Manchester to London overall, as you say Rail now dominates (even if there seem to be an extraordinary number of cancellations on the route). At one time Manchester had 33 flights a day to London Airports collectively (LHR, LGW, LCY and STN). Now, I think it is 10 and all are LHR apart from once a week to/from LCY to effectively position and ERJ190 to operate Summer weekend only flights. That underlines the fact that the basic demand is already for "One World" connections. It was interesting to see an article on BBC Breakfast earlier in the week, whereby a Travel Guide expert was saying that people are increasingly demanding to avoid Heathrow (and presumably European hubs), as the internet has widened their knowledge of what's available. Certainly, its utterly ludicrous for people within Manchester's catchment area (and moreso Glasgow/Edinburgh and Belfast) to have to go to Heathrow when travelling to North America. I had to do it once - never again. Reached MAN (7 air miles from my home) around 0800 only to fly over my house more than 7 hours later with another 12 hours to go to San Francisco. If I was flying direct, I would have already been in US airspace by that time, which with a change at (for instance) Chicago, would have drastically reduced the jet lag.

As hinted on another thread, MAN's problem is lack of Terminal capacity and limited public transport options. Runway capacity can cope with considerable expansion and whilst it might be a few years too late, MAN is finally tackling the capacity problems elsewhere