Bexleyheath line bother Feb 2019

[hwl]

That is curious regards to Falconwood.

Previous re-signalling and track rationalisation was around 1972

 

[Antman]

Should reopen tomorrow morning all being well.

 

[Antman]

All reopened and back to normal this morning.

 

[island]

Southeastern is paying double DelayRepay on all claims for last week.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

In light of this, a community rail partnership is being formed (somewhat rare for urban areas), covering local stations from Lewisham to Barnehurst.

Among the priorities are improved station staffing and on-train revenue / safety patrols, a smooth and successful introduction of a new clockface timetable and new rolling stock, and the installation of a London-facing crossover at Bexleyheath with suitable DOO equipment (so that during future landslides services can get as far as Bexleyheath before returning) and a country-facing crossover at Eltham (so that during engineering works trains can get to Eltham for Bus connections to Crossrail etc in Woolwich).

The twitter handle is @lewbexrail.

 

[ComUtoR]

and the installation of a London-facing crossover at Bexleyheath with suitable DOO equipment (so that during future landslides services can get as far as Bexleyheath before returning) and a country-facing crossover at Eltham (so that during engineering works trains can get to Eltham for Bus connections to Crossrail etc in Woolwich).

What are london/country facing crossovers ? As to the DOO equipment, I though that there can't be any new installations of DOO monitors and any new DOO must be onboard CCTV ?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

What are london/country facing crossovers ? As to the DOO equipment, I though that there can't be any new installations of DOO monitors and any new DOO must be onboard CCTV ?

To give an example, Barnehurst Platform 1 > Dartford / Slade Green would be a ‘country facing crossover’. Installing one to enable trains to do London > Bexleyheath > London or Dartford > Eltham > Dartford are remarkably useful for their potential benefits.

 

[ComUtoR]

Barnehurst Platform 2 also turns back to London. You can go in either direction.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Barnehurst Platform 2 also turns back to London. You can go in either direction.

It does. However, if you want to complete the move (arrive from London then go back to London via Eltham) you have the dwell time to shut the train down and the train can only be formed of 4/5 coaches (single unit) due to a lack of a walkway.

By having a crossover from Bexleyheath (down platform) back to London and a crossover from Eltham (up platform) back to Kent you could turn the train round during service disruption / as part of a timetabled move during weekend possessions in 5 minutes.

As an aside, Barnehurst needs dispatch staff due to a lack of monitors if the train is going towards Slade Green / Dartford from the up. That is a huge battle when none of the permanent staff have a dispatch licence...

 

[ComUtoR]

You don't need any real dwell time to shut the train down. You can do it in less than a minute.

I will concede that your limitation is a single unit but this is easily overcome. If there was planned engineering works its even easier. This was done at Crayford last year and was done with 8 cars so the limit on a single unit was overcome with little effort.

Turning trains back takes longer than 5 minutes if your more than a 4 car.

I don't think it's cost effective to install a turnback of any sort between Bexleyheath and Barnehurst just for the sake of extending the turnback facility by 1 station. As I've mentioned previously, just fix the bloody bank. Adding a crossover is not a solution as disruption can happen anywhere along the route. If you want end to end turnbacks then Barnehurst/Lewisham would be the most effective.

Why choose Eltham and leave Kidbrooke unserved ? There used to be points at Kidbrooke so there is precedent for them to be reinstalled.

 

[Surreytraveller]

There's not a lot of point in installing redundancy in the London area, when there are two other (or three if you include Sole Street) diversionary routes available, and a plethora of frequent bus services linking them

 

[4-SUB 4732]

There's not a lot of point in installing redundancy in the London area, when there are two other (or three if you include Sole Street) diversionary routes available, and a plethora of frequent bus services linking them

I’m sure the Bexleyheath line passengers will enjoy hearing that their services (mostly London to Dartford) are not in need of any redundancy because you can divert them via Sole Street when drivers don’t sign it.

What a ludicrous comment!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

You don't need any real dwell time to shut the train down. You can do it in less than a minute.

I will concede that your limitation is a single unit but this is easily overcome. If there was planned engineering works its even easier. This was done at Crayford last year and was done with 8 cars so the limit on a single unit was overcome with little effort.

Turning trains back takes longer than 5 minutes if your more than a 4 car.

I don't think it's cost effective to install a turnback of any sort between Bexleyheath and Barnehurst just for the sake of extending the turnback facility by 1 station. As I've mentioned previously, just fix the bloody bank. Adding a crossover is not a solution as disruption can happen anywhere along the route. If you want end to end turnbacks then Barnehurst/Lewisham would be the most effective.

Why choose Eltham and leave Kidbrooke unserved ? There used to be points at Kidbrooke so there is precedent for them to be reinstalled.

4 car trains turning round at peak times? Offering a 4 car peak service? Said trains not able to get to Barnehurst because of the landslides?

Are you mad?

 

[ComUtoR]

4 car trains turning round at peak times? Offering a 4 car peak service?

Where have I said about running 4 Car trains in the peak ? Potentially some confusion here. To clarify; you stated it would take less than 5 minutes to turnaround during planned engineering works. Turnaround times on units/train lengths longer than 4 cars are greater than 5 minutes

Said trains not able to get to Barnehurst because of the landslides?

So there are landslips at Barnehurst so you want on spend thousands on putting in points "just in case" Why chose to install points and not tackle to problem of the bank slipping ?

What happens when we install these crossovers and turnbacks but there is a problem at Welling ? Do we then demand a crossover at Falconwood ?

Are you mad?

For what ? Suggesting we fix the bank rather than install a crossover ?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Where have I said about running 4 Car trains in the peak ? Potentially some confusion here. To clarify; you stated it would take less than 5 minutes to turnaround during planned engineering works. Turnaround times on units/train lengths longer than 4 cars are greater than 5 minutes



So there are landslips at Barnehurst so you want on spend thousands on putting in points "just in case" Why chose to install points and not tackle to problem of the bank slipping ?

What happens when we install these crossovers and turnbacks but there is a problem at Welling ? Do we then demand a crossover at Falconwood ?



For what ? Suggesting we fix the bank rather than install a crossover ?

Having spoken to an NR source, in order to do the bank work will require around 3 months (at least) or intrusive interventions closing the line. They would therefore need a crossover anyway as part of the works which you may as well install immediately for use during service perturbation etc before you can find the much bigger funding needed for the bank work.

And no, to your silly point. If there was an issue at Erith we couldn’t demand a crossover at Belvedere and so on. We do however need some crossovers on the Bexleyheath line where the Sidcup line has them at Lee and Sidcup and the Woolwich line has them at Charlton and Plumstead.

 

[kentman]

Sidcup line has them at Lee and Sidcup and the Woolwich line has them at Charlton and Plumstead.

During disruption I've been over the Sidcup & Crayford crossovers and also wrong line/direction moves between Sidcup & Crayford. The NorthKent controlled Signalling seems to allow it, albeit with no intermediate signals. Only once, during a embankment slip, been over the Lee one and that required SLW with Pilot person. Hopefully when Hither Green area gets re-controlled to Three Bridges ROC they can make the Lee one more usable, as I can see it being quite useful to have a turn back capability at Hither Green.

 

[ComUtoR]

been over the Lee one and that required SLW with Pilot person.

Why did it require SLW ? Or did you use SLW between Lee and Crayford ?

Hopefully when Hither Green area gets re-controlled to Three Bridges ROC they can make the Lee one more usable,

What difference with re-controlling it to TBROC make ?

as I can see it being quite useful to have a turn back capability at Hither Green.

You can turnback at Hither Green already.

Cheers in advance

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Why did it require SLW ? Or did you use SLW between Lee and Crayford ?



What difference with re-controlling it to TBROC make ?



You can turnback at Hither Green already.

Cheers in advance

When Hither Green - Dartford trains ran, they had to be piloted.

You can turn around towards Orpington via the carriage washers; but not realistically from HG - Dartford as finding a pilot etc would be difficult. Lee allows a move back towards Grove Park / Hither Green from the down platform; or tipping passengers out towards London and doing a shunt.

 

[ComUtoR]

but not realistically from HG - Dartford as finding a pilot etc would be difficult.

I am still kinda confused why we need a pilot to shunt to and from Hither Green/Grove Park. All movements are signaled. I get if there was SLW running between Hither Green <> Dartford you may need a pilotman.

 

[Bald Rick]

Having spoken to an NR source, in order to do the bank work will require around 3 months (at least) or intrusive interventions closing the line. They would therefore need a crossover anyway as part of the works which you may as well install immediately for use during service perturbation etc before you can find the much bigger funding needed for the bank work.

Two crossovers will cost at least £5m. Very unlikely to be done in order to do the bank slip work (which would be likely to cost less than this).

 

[ComUtoR]

Two crossovers will cost at least £5m.

How much work is involved in installation of a crossover ? I'm thinking more on the line of the main physical grunt work of digging up the track and laying track. I'm sure I've seen weekend engineering works renew junctions in a couple of days. Granted that is just track work and a new installation would require signalling etc but when Network Rail make an effort I have seen some really impressive work in a short amount of time.

Thanks as always.

 

[Bald Rick]

How much work is involved in installation of a crossover ? I'm thinking more on the line of the main physical grunt work of digging up the track and laying track. I'm sure I've seen weekend engineering works renew junctions in a couple of days. Granted that is just track work and a new installation would require signalling etc but when Network Rail make an effort I have seen some really impressive work in a short amount of time.

Thanks as always.

Track wise, it’s the same as plain line, ie dig out ballast to 300mm (400mm or more if formation / drainage required), new ballast then new track on top. Installation needs to be a bit more precsise. And there’s a lot more work involved in setting up the point work itself, and all the ironmongery that drives them.

Signalling, For a new crossover it’s interlocking changes, control system changes, transmission changes, and changes on the ground (new signal route indicators as a minimum, often new signals, revised track circuits).

Power: new con rail (easy) or OLE (less so). And new switching arrangements. Also revised traction return bonding.

A brand new crossover would typically take a 52 hour possession for the installation and commissioning in one hit. But there would en a lot of prep work. The signalling changes would take several months of work in installation and testing.

 

[ComUtoR]

Thanks.

Charlton is undergoing new signalling and a new crossover getting installed. For months I have watched the slow but incremental installation and I fully expect a single weekend to install the points and then on the Monday morning drive it like its been there forever. FYI You can add in Driver briefings to the prep work.

Compare and contrast to what's happening at Orpington, with what looks like track realignment, reduction in speed and a fair bit of track renewal work.

Kudos to the Orange Army.

 

[theageofthetra]

Thanks.

Charlton is undergoing new signalling and a new crossover getting installed. For months I have watched the slow but incremental installation and I fully expect a single weekend to install the points and then on the Monday morning drive it like its been there forever. FYI You can add in Driver briefings to the prep work.

Compare and contrast to what's happening at Orpington, with what looks like track realignment, reduction in speed and a fair bit of track renewal work.

Kudos to the Orange Army.

Will the new crossover finally allow freight to leave Angerstein in both directions?

 

[ComUtoR]

The crossover will take you into the up platform from Angerstein/Blackheath side.

 

[theageofthetra]

The crossover will take you into the up platform from Angerstein/Blackheath side.

So no use for freight then?

 

[ComUtoR]

So no use for freight then?

I hear this has been done specifically for freight. I don't drive Freight so can't really comment on its usefulness. Maybe its for loco moves ?

 

[frodshamfella]

When I used to commute from Bexleyheath it was the old slam door emus. Services were mainly to Dartford, some to Slade Green and Barnehurst in peaks, a few fasts from Kidbrook to Waterloo East ( don't think they exist anymore ?) and a few more fast Lewisham to London Bridge. There were also some services which terminated at Gravesend, this increased and degreased over the years depending on timetabling, and the odd service to Gillingham. None went round the North Kent or Sidcup loop as an actual advertised service you could travel on as now ( I believe ? ). In London the terminus was Charing Cross, plus Cannon Street in peaks and a few Blackfriars and Holborn Viaduct peak services not calling at Nunhead or Denmark Hill.

 

[Monarch010]

And of course, we had the Bulleid double decker...

 

[carriageline]

Will the new crossover finally allow freight to leave Angerstein in both directions?

The crossover will be Country end of Charlton. The most it will give is to allow a freight to be signalled out of angerstein, wrong direction over the Up line, and into the up platform. Potentially, if you had 2 locos you COULD then start it back up from Charlton.

But I’m not sure that is the plan.

The crossover primarily enables you to turn back up trains and send them back down towards Dartford. As you can bidi along the Up line, you can terminate a down train, and send it back towards London.