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BHM to SLO or BSK

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redmen1892

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28 May 2008
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Hello All,

Great site by the way, I wonder if someone could help me out.

For the past 18 months I've been traveling each Monday from B'Ham New Street to either Slough or Basingstoke depending on which project I was assigned to that week, I'd then travel back on either a Thursday or Friday PM.

I used to catch either the 0803 if I was traveling down to BSK or 0903 for SLO, the cost was £49.90 SVR to BSK and £41.60 SVR to SLO, never had any problems with 'ticket inspectors', however, the week before last the inspector told me that from the 18/05 SVR tickets would not be valid on that route until after 0933, this would mean I wouldn't arrive at work until approx. midday. on checking this out both the trainline and nationalrail websites quoted £71 for SLO and £85.00, whilst my employer is happy to cover the cost of the tickets or is happy for me toarrive later I'm looking for a cheaper way to do the journey!!!, if I try getting a SVR to Banbury and then a open return as a SVR isnt valid at that time from Banbury to SLO/BSK I can only shave a few pounds off the price, getting singles etc. doesn't reduce the cost either.

Any ideas?

thanks

Jon
 
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John @ home

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It seems that a £39.50 Birmingham to London Saver return (by any permitted route) is valid outward on the 0833 or 0903 to Paddington (change Reading). The return portion can then be used immediately and is valid for break of journey at Slough. The journey can then be resumed from Slough to Birmingham on any day for a month.

There are evening restrictions on FGW trains from Paddington in the weekday evening peak. In detail, the restrictions using this ticket by this route are: on Mondays to Fridays, you may travel on any train that is scheduled to arrive London Paddington at or after 1044; you may travel on any train that is scheduled to depart London Paddington between 0925 and 1630 (inc.) and at or after 1820. Restrictions from Slough are according to the time the train was due to leave Paddington.

You should be OK on any XC service from Reading back to Birmingham. XC restrictions don't apply to this ticket because it's priced by Virgin.

Hope this is helpful for Slough. Still thinking about Basingstoke.

John

__________________________________

The best I can do between Birmingham and Basingstoke is a Saver Return from Stoke-on-Trent to Basingstoke via Oxford at £61.50. This ticket is still valid by any train, presumably because the fare is not set by XC. Note that there are two Saver Returns from Stoke-on-Trent to Basingstoke, via Oxford and via London, both at £61.50. Make sure you get the right one - they are not interchangeable.

Use of this ticket involves starting your journey at an intermediate station. Although break of journey at an intermediate station is not allowed on the outward part of a saver return, it has been confidently asserted on groups such as this that starting your journey at one is allowed. For completeness, I have copied the relevant paragraph of the National Conditions of Carriage below.

Note that all this may change in September when Savers are due to be replaced by "off-peak" and "anytime" tickets.

John

from http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf
16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a
return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications.
If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station
when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This
excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold
and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that
would have entitled you to start, break and resume, or end your journey at that
station on the service(s) you have used.
A ticket which entitles you to travel on the London Underground and/or
Docklands Light Railway does not entitle you to break and resume your journey at
any of the stations on these networks unless it is a Season Ticket or a Travelcard.
For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated
as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s
stations after you start your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station, or
(ii) to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s staff.
 
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redmen1892

Member
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28 May 2008
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John,

Many thanks for the response, i'll take a look at what you've suggested.

thanks again

Jon
 

Chris B

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28 May 2008
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185
It seems that a £39.50 Birmingham to London Saver return (by any permitted route) is valid outward on the 0833 or 0903 to Paddington (change Reading). The return portion can then be used immediately and is valid for break of journey at Slough.

Bear in mind that this *does* require you to go via London Paddington - you could be properly pulled up if you tried to short-circuit the trip by travelling from Reading direct to Slough on a slow train.

There are evening restrictions on FGW trains from Paddington in the weekday evening peak. In detail, the restrictions using this ticket by this route are: on Mondays to Fridays, you may travel on any train that is scheduled to arrive London Paddington at or after 1044;

So you're not allowed to reach Paddington before 1044, and obviously that means your train back to Slough would leave after that time as well.

The best I can do between Birmingham and Basingstoke is a Saver Return from Stoke-on-Trent to Basingstoke via Oxford at £61.50. This ticket is still valid by any train, presumably because the fare is not set by XC. Note that there are two Saver Returns from Stoke-on-Trent to Basingstoke, via Oxford and via London, both at £61.50. Make sure you get the right one - they are not interchangeable.

You can get to Basingstoke via Reading. So one *might* try the above Paddington ticket, combined with a Reading / Basingstoke return (peak or CDR, depending on arrival time into Reading)

You book both tickets *in advance* & travel with them. Then throw away the outward Paddington ticket at Reading, and, remaining in the station, start your trip from there to Basingstoke on the outward portion of that ticket.

On the return, use the return ticket to Reading, and from there 'start long' on your return portion to Birmingham.

Only strictly illegal at Reading on the outward, where you are finishing your Paddington journey short - but being in possession of the Reading / Basingstoke ticket, you ought to be OK if you show this ticket if (and it's a VERY big if) you get challenged before boarding the Basingstoke train.

This MUST be cheaper than the £61.50 quoted above.
 

John @ home

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Originally Posted by Chris B
you ought to be OK if you show this ticket if (and it's a VERY big if) you get challenged before boarding the Basingstoke train.

But redmen1892 wants to travel on the 0803 direct Birmingham - Basingstoke train, so would "board the Basingstoke train" in Birmingham, not Reading. The £39.50 Birmingham to London Saver return is not valid outward on the 0803 due to the 1044 restriction on arriving in Paddington - the first train which meets this is the 0833.

It now occurs to me that an advance ticket may be acceptable to redmen1892 for the outward leg. If the 0803 outward journey is fixed, but flexibility is needed over the time of the return leg, then a saving is possible. To take next Monday as an example, an advance single is available for the 0803 currently at £14.50 (or First class at £33.50 including complementary food and refreshments). Together with an £42.50 open single for the return leg, that's a total standard cost of £57, rather better than my £61.50 Stoke-on-Trent to Basingstoke suggestion.

John
 

Chris B

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But redmen1892 wants to travel on the 0803 direct Birmingham - Basingstoke train, so would "board the Basingstoke train" in Birmingham, not Reading. The £39.50 Birmingham to London Saver return is not valid outward on the 0803 due to the 1044 restriction on arriving in Paddington - the first train which meets this is the 0833.

But these are Bournemouth trains, not Paddington ones - couldn't you argue that you would wait at Reading so as to arrive at Padd after 1044 off a connection at Reading? Surely you aren't forced to catych the first train that connects at Reading?
 

John @ home

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But these are Bournemouth trains, not Paddington ones - couldn't you argue that you would wait at Reading so as to arrive at Padd after 1044 off a connection at Reading? Surely you aren't forced to catych the first train that connects at Reading?

That argument wouldn't get you very far. Travelling on a Birmingham to London Terminals saver return, for the part of the journey between Birmingham and Reading, the point you raise depends on whether this part of the journey "involves" London Terminals or not.

If it is ruled that it does "involve" London Terminals, then the 1044 restriction applies, and the 0803 from Birmingham is not a valid train because it is due to arrive at Reading at 0939, the 7-minute minimum connection specified in the National Railway Timetable applies, and one is able to catch the 0957 from Reading to Paddington due to arrive 1027. It is the availability of this train that makes the 0803 not valid with a saver return, whether or not one chooses to catch it.

Alternatively, if it is ruled that the part of the journey between Birmingham and Reading does not "involve" London Terminals, then the relevant restriction states "If travel does not involve London Terminals, see restriction code 2V" and code 2V states "By any train except those scheduled to depart before 0930."

By both interpretations, you can't use a Birmingham to London saver return on the 0803 from Birmingham to Reading.

John
 

redmen1892

Member
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28 May 2008
Messages
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Gents,

Thanks for the comments, one interesting point, last Monday I arrived at BHM, proceeded to the ticket machine, however before buying the open return ticket for £85 to Basingstoke I thought I'd check the Saver Return restrictions, this showed up as the usual £49.90 and valid on any train after 0803!!!!, so I thought I'd give it a shot, purchased the SVR ticket, showed my ticket at the barrier, walked through, boarded the 0803, about 30 minutes later the train manager came along for a ticket inspection, merrily checked my ticket and went on her way. So I can only conclude 1) Not all the Ticket machines have been calibrated, 2) Not all the Train Managers are aware of the revised policy or 3) I've got it completely wrong.

thanks again

Jon
 

Chris B

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I suspect a combination of 1 and 2.

I have got Passenger Focus onto both these points already, albeit from a different station.
 

yorkie

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...If it is ruled that it does "involve" London Terminals, then the 1044 restriction applies, and the 0803 from Birmingham is not a valid train because it is due to arrive at Reading at 0939, the 7-minute minimum connection specified in the National Railway Timetable applies, and one is able to catch the 0957 from Reading to Paddington due to arrive 1027. It is the availability of this train that makes the 0803 not valid with a saver return, whether or not one chooses to catch it....
I'm not sure about this. This scenario is not documented anywhere I can find. If this rule does exist then it prohibits people making safe connections by forcing them onto a tight connection. That doesn't seem right to me. As the train from BHM does not go to London I would have thought it would be unrestricted until you board a train that does go to a London terminal, which would seem more logical to me.

But, at the end of the day, both of us are interpreting rules and then guesstimating the validity of the connecting train based on logic. Quite what the 'official' rule is, I am not sure. I can't see it documented anywhere.
 

John @ home

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last Monday I arrived at BHM, proceeded to the ticket machine, however before buying the open return ticket for £85 to Basingstoke I thought I'd check the Saver Return restrictions, this showed up as the usual £49.90 and valid on any train after 0803!!!!

Are you sure it said any train after 0803, in which case the 0803 is not valid? Or was it any train not before 0803, making the 0803 valid?

John
 

yorkie

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Are you sure it said any train after 0803, in which case the 0803 is not valid? Or was it any train not before 0803, making the 0803 valid?

John
The old XC rules state the time of the first valid train and are labelled "depart at or after"

The new rules are far more draconian being a blanket "valid after 0930" although the unrestricted savers remain (but Valid after 0500 so effectively unrestricted!)
 

redmen1892

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Are you sure it said any train after 0803, in which case the 0803 is not valid? Or was it any train not before 0803, making the 0803 valid?

John

Hmmm, do you know I think it said 'Valid on any train timed to depart after 0803'. I'll have a look on Monday, no doubt the machines will have been updated to reflect the new policy. But that statement was always the case in the 0903 to SLO that I have caught for the past 2 years and always purchased a SVR.

Then again I'm sure I've seen a machine at LMS state under the restrictions 'inquire about restrictions' which makes using a ATM pretty redundant if you have to queue at the TO when there is no-one else around to ask.

Hence the reason why I took the risk, if they treat customers like a dumbed down sheep (no offence to sheep or fare paying customers) then ill continue to buy a cheaper ticket until they throw me off the train, IMHO, if the guidelines aren't clear at time of sale then what can you expect, I only found out about the change in pricing by pure accident, If I hadn't I still be buying blissfully unware of the change in guidelines. Rant over. Jon
 
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