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Bi-mode and electric 5-car Azumas working in multiple on the Harrogate service

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crimple

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All the Harrogate-Kings Cross services have been reinstated today. I saw the 9.36 departure in Harrogate station today and it comprised of a 5 car bi-mode Azuma 800202 and 5 car electric 801109. I have never seen a bi-mode and an electric coupled together in Harrogate even before the lockdown. Is this common practise ?
 
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bramling

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All the Harrogate-Kings Cross services have been reinstated today. I saw the 9.36 departure in Harrogate station today and it comprised of a 5 car bi-mode Azuma 800202 and 5 car electric 801109. I have never seen a bi-mode and an electric coupled together in Harrogate even before the lockdown. Is this common practise ?

There's a diagram booked to work like that all day, which as you saw includes Harrogate. I was surprised to see it.
 

ASharpe

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Please point me to the post that probably already exists on this forums, but:

How fast can a bimode connected to a electric unit gojust on diesel.

And how is the acceleration?

I know they have one engine for a limp mode, so with a 5 car bi mode can they get up to 125 mph eventually?
 

JonathanH

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I know they have one engine for a limp mode, so with a 5 car bi mode can they get up to 125 mph eventually?
I don't think 125mph is relevant as all the 125 mph track they might use is electrified. What is more relevant is how well they can keep to the timetable at lower speeds between Leeds and Harrogate (or Hull, or Sunderland or via Lincoln). Is Harrogate the only route authorised for a 800/2+801/1 combination in service?

The return working appeared to be three minutes late into Harrogate but I assume that is coincidence.

I don't think there is an explanation on the forum of the performance of a 800/2+801/1 combination on diesel or whether they would be able to maintain the usual timetable on a joint-line or Ely diversion. The question has been asked a few time (including by me). I agree that it would be interesting to know.
 

Bevan Price

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Much of Harrogate to Leeds is mostly downhill - even a Class 31 could probably manage most of the schedules in that direction. Leeds to Harrogate direction is more difficult, but Class 47s and 55s could do that section in just over 24 minutes, so I don't see a 800/2 + 801/1 combination having any serious problems keeping to time (within a minute or so).
 

37424

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All the 5 car units should have been bi-modes, would have been much more flexible having said should still be enough power for the Harrogate trundle.

Why aren't they inclined to attach/detach at Leeds which was presumably the original plan?
 

Halish Railway

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Very interesting indeed, this explains why on on one of my videos (go to 0:45), you will here how the front set makes no engine sound, whereas the rear set appears to be on full power.

On another note, this is the first time that I’ve heard of the 09:36 Harrogate to London being operated by a 10 coach Azuma, the rest of the time it’s been just five!

 

David Goddard

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All the 5 car units should have been bi-modes, would have been much more flexible having said should still be enough power for the Harrogate trundle.

Why aren't they inclined to attach/detach at Leeds which was presumably the original plan?

Agreed. Whilst the 9 car 800 and 801s broadly replaced the HSTs and Mk4s respectively, the 5 cars were all extra and should have been all 800 for the most flexibility with all of the intentions to serve so many destinations which are off the wires. There are so few anyway (10x800 and 12x801) a standardised fleet would have made such more sense.

Will mean careful planning for once we get to the realm of services that split with a portion going off the juice, making sure they are the right way round if a mixed set is formed.
 

ryan125hst

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I have noticed that the latest LNER diagrams have been published on WhatDoTheyKnow. I was having a look at them yesterday and noticed that this is a booked working. Diagram DN505, a 5 Car Bi-Mode unit works Harrogate services all day (Harrogate-London-Harrogate-London). A note on the right hand side of this reads "COUPLED WITH DN607" which is a 5 Car electric set. The diagram for the electric set shows that unit as working to Harrogate and not being detached at Leeds. https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ...DIAGS May 2020 FINAL.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

Normally, a double 5 Car set would have six engines, three per unit. By comparison, a 9 Car set has five engines. In this case, there would only be four engines in the formation, and if that video is anything to go by, only three are used to propel the train. I couldn't hear any engine noise from the front unit at all, so I am wondering if the single engine in the electric set is left at idle to produce power for lighting, heating/air conditioning, toilets and catering only? Presumably three or four engines is enough to propel the train to the line speed (60 Mph?) with acceptable acceleration.

It certainly surprised me when I saw it diagrammed that way!
 

Halish Railway

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I have noticed that the latest LNER diagrams have been published on WhatDoTheyKnow. I was having a look at them yesterday and noticed that this is a booked working. Diagram DN505, a 5 Car Bi-Mode unit works Harrogate services all day (Harrogate-London-Harrogate-London). A note on the right hand side of this reads "COUPLED WITH DN607" which is a 5 Car electric set. The diagram for the electric set shows that unit as working to Harrogate and not being detached at Leeds. https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/671851/response/1594927/attach/2/2020 DIAGS May 2020 FINAL.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

Normally, a double 5 Car set would have six engines, three per unit. By comparison, a 9 Car set has five engines. In this case, there would only be four engines in the formation, and if that video is anything to go by, only three are used to propel the train. I couldn't hear any engine noise from the front unit at all, so I am wondering if the single engine in the electric set is left at idle to produce power for lighting, heating/air conditioning, toilets and catering only? Presumably three or four engines is enough to propel the train to the line speed (60 Mph?) with acceptable acceleration.

It certainly surprised me when I saw it diagrammed that way!
Yes - The top speed on the Harrogate loop is 60mph, however, from Leeds the line climbs all the way to Bramhope tunnel with significant stretches of 1 in 100 gradients.

In the video shown, the line speed is 90mph, however the train would have been doing 60mph when the pantographs were lowered at Temple Hirst Junction.
 

Class 170101

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No, there is no autocoupler design yet (and maybe never) that can handle traction power.
theblackwatch did say the 'on board' power.
Ah yes I misunderstood. Though 'on board' does describe both diesel traction power and diesel hotel power!

Didn't Hull Trains have electrical crossfeeding in their Class 170s they 'bought' from new (not referring to the ex Anglia ones now with TfW).
 

Bletchleyite

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Didn't Hull Trains have electrical crossfeeding in their Class 170s they 'bought' from new (not referring to the ex Anglia ones now with TfW).

If they did it was only within the unit, which wasn't via an autocoupler but rather via traditional jumpers (and a bar coupler). Also it wasn't traction power, it was just hotel power.
 

IanXC

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A few months ago I saw a 5 car bimode and a 5 car electric running coupled from Doncaster to Leeds via Hambleton.
 

800001

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5 car electric coupled to 5 car diesel are nearly an every day occurrence now.

They have also tested 2 x 5 car diesel between Newcastle and Carlisle with only one set powering (to simulate if electric set used), multiple tests taken including with just 1 and 2 engines to see what was actually possible power wise, lead to believe that even with 2 engines running it could get going on a hill from a standing start and get up to line speed (appreciate its a low speed limit on that line), but even on Harrogate line it should be possible for a electric + Diesel 10 car to maintain timings etc
 

Flipped Pacer

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They Should have made all the Azumas Bi-Mode because it would have made allocating units easier and we wouldn't have ended up with shortages of Bi modes
 

ryan125hst

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They have also tested 2 x 5 car diesel between Newcastle and Carlisle with only one set powering (to simulate if electric set used), multiple tests taken including with just 1 and 2 engines to see what was actually possible power wise, lead to believe that even with 2 engines running it could get going on a hill from a standing start and get up to line speed (appreciate its a low speed limit on that line), but even on Harrogate line it should be possible for a electric + Diesel 10 car to maintain timings etc

Interesting stuff, it looks like they have more than enough power to cope then from that information. I doubt they'd diagram such a combination if 100 Mph diesel running was needed but for lower line speeds they seem to do the job.

They Should have made all the Azumas Bi-Mode because it would have made allocating units easier and we wouldn't have ended up with shortages of Bi modes

I agree, 22 x 5 Car Bi-Modes instead of 10 x 5 Car Bi-Modes and 12 x 5 Car Electrics would be easier for flexibility. That being said, that would mean two more engines per five car set to buy and maintain which would increase costs a fair amount. It's probably not an issue at all during normal running but on days where diversions are needed it would have made things simpler.
 

43096

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I agree, 22 x 5 Car Bi-Modes instead of 10 x 5 Car Bi-Modes and 12 x 5 Car Electrics would be easier for flexibility. That being said, that would mean two more engines per five car set to buy and maintain which would increase costs a fair amount. It's probably not an issue at all during normal running but on days where diversions are needed it would have made things simpler.
It would have made covering for 800109's absence a lot easier as well.
 
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