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Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by First class, 24 Aug 2010.
There is no ranger or rover option on the TVM!!
Can I just check a couple of things with you knowledgeable chaps? How much is a return from Bache to Chester on a Sunday now? And how much will a return from Bache to Liverpool cost me, and as a comparison how much is a return from Bache to Edge Hill?
The reason I ask - the main use I have of the train is to go from Bache station, which is about thirty yards from the house, into Chester for a session on the ale most Sunday afternoons. I think it's currently about £1.20 return. However there is an acceptable bus service past Bache, even on a Sunday, so if it's increased a lot then unfortunately Merseyrail's revenue from me will go down, not up...
There also seems to be confusion about whether these increases (please don't pretend they're anything else) only apply to Merseyrail services. As such, a ticket from Bache to Edge Hill would do just nicely to get to the city centre, alighting at Lime Street with nobody any the wiser (for anyone not local, the underground and mainline Lime Streets are two completely seperate stations - you have to leave the underground through a barrier, and walk down a public subway to reach the mainline station. Hence absolutely no problem leaving the underground, and no problem at the barriers)
Bache to Chester = £1.20 SDR
Bache to Edge Hill = £6.20 SDR
Bache to Liverpool = £6.10 SDR (or Day Saver £4.30 I think but you cannot get that from a TVM!!!)
Basically Merseyrail are ripping off the hapless passenger by
1. Not selling the day saver at unmanned station
2. Withdrawing CDRs from all fares they price including those outside the Merseyrail area.
Can you please show me an example (not on the Wirral or Northern Lines) of the CDR being withdrawn from outside the Merseyside Area.
As I said before AFAIK the only fares being replaced are on the Northern & Wirral Lines along with some fares to other Merseyside destinations from those stations.
Most Fares on the City Line have not been affected, the only ones being affected being some to Wirral & Nothern Line stations.
That is not what you said.
Which is wrong.
Chester to Edge Hill is now an Anytime only. No CDR now. You cannot use a Day Saver as Liverpool to Edge Hill is Northern.
It's tickets out side the Merseyrail are from destinations within the the Merseyrail area which are seeing the biggest increases.
Meanwhile I have so far just got an acknowledgement from Merseyrail for my email whilst they rip off hapless passengers from unmanned stations.
They can't ask people from unstaffed stations to pay any more than the cheapest fare that is valid for their journey, however the PF warnings will bully some people into paying more, and because those people are allowing themselves to be bullied and not standing up to it, they will get away with it. It's quite disgraceful.
I said not on the Wirral or Northern Lines (Chester is on the Wirral Lines)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
AS was your comment
I have no idea what your point is.
Fares have been raised (well, off peak returns removed) on routes that they do not operate trains on in full - ie a route from the City line to the Northern line. Maybe it was a bit ambiguous. Examples have been given, but you said that "The only CDR fares withdrawn are routes wholly on the wirral and Northern lines", and that is 100% incorrect. You then proceeded to tell people that they were wrong, and gave an example fare which no longer exists (the CDR return from Bootle to Edge Hill).
I agree that was wrong.
Due you agree with
And if not come up with some examples
Yes I agree with that. I don't believe I have said otherwise - maybe you are mixing me up with someone?
You did not say it but you replied to a post quoting information that was wrong
when there are still CDR fares available on the above journeys. All are the same price as before except Liverpool - Warrington which is now £5-00.
It is not you I am really getting at but quotes like
Which is plainly incorrect.
Ah right, I understand now, it could be seen that way yes
I'm confused as Warrington is on the City Line not the Northern or Wirral line.
The fare has increased by 10p NOT withdrawn as claimed earlier
Apologies for misunderstandings given...
It is hit and miss to what fares have (and haven't been withdrawn) by Merseyrail. However, when Merseyrail simply state 'All cheap day returns have been withdrawn' to both staff and passengers, it is easy to become mistaken. Also, Merseyrail don't seem to be following ATOC's 'simplification' way of things, (CDRs are now Off Peak Day Rtns!!).
It strikes me as odd that Merseyrail (in their sales briefing to staff) writes that these saver tickets are available by selecting the 'ranger/rover' option from TVMs, (when AFAIK, that is not possible for any TOC as the TVM software would need rewriting). I believe someone from Retail Dept has become confused somewhere along the way here.
Either way, the new ticket is very badly designed (in it's appearance, and I believe it is very confusing to both ticket examiners and customers). A 'single' ticket that they can go backwards and forwards on?! Should have been issued as a ranger/rover (but I imagine that they can't because they won't spend money on new colour stock to make it appear different from the Saveaway). I'd also love for someone to try and travel via London with the +Any Permitted routing on it.
To make this even more confusing, the following ARE still available as CDRs (at least from TVMs):
1) Liverpool - Chester route Birkenhead/Any Permitted - £4.40
2) Liverpool - Chester Zoo route Any Permitted - £18.50
Also, their website has not been updated and still tells you about their off peak day returns: http://www.merseyrail.org/tickets/off-peak.html
It would appear that the whole thing has not been thought through properly.
I expect Merseyrail will be in for a lot of complaints in the weeks few days weeks.
Meanwhile when I go out to Liverpool from Capenhurst I will be buying the SDS at £3.60 and try and excess to the Day Saver at Liverpool the staff at Liverpool are going to love that!
Of course they could refuse a single to a Day Saver (having completed my journey and all that)
I travelled from the City line to the Northern line today. NRE says there is now no off-peak fare available - the station sold me one though.
An update on all the above, and it's not good news I'm afraid. It seems that either Merseyrail have not promoted these new tickets well enough internally or that ticket office staff are not thinking when issuing tickets - several people have told me they've been sold Anytime Day Returns with no one apparently realising the new Day Saver is actually cheaper. It seems the onus is on the passenger to know about them, not the staff, as presumably if they ask for one specifically they'll get one. If this has been repeated across all passengers (as opposed to just my friends) Merseyrail must be doing quite well out of it - what started out as adding 30/40p to the price of a ticket has now worked out effectively as twice that. Unbelievable really, but I don't think the company will complain too much!
And I have not had a reply to my complaint to them about the ticket not being available from TVMs (despite publicity to the contrary).
I think technically the rules of impartial retailing allow them to simply offer a single or return as requested by the customer.
This 'Day Saver' is effectively a ranger/rover ticket and the onus is placed on the customer to request it - (again officially).
However, good customer service should dictate that they should be offered the cheapest ticket, regardless of ranger/rover/single/return etc... I don't think Merseyrail are deliberately doing this, (I've not seen anything to support this internally, in fact I've seen documents saying the Day Saver SHOULD be sold), much more could have been done to brief this out to staff and passengers.
The 'Day Saver' itself is a confusing mess of a ticket anyway, and needs to be redesigned to make it more understandable. The other problem that the ticket barriers don't recognise these new ticket types is even more unbelievable considering that after 0930, most people will now be travelling with these and will have to have a manual inspection along with the pass holders!!
The TVM still only allows for SDR/SDS to be purchased so I think Merseyrail need to start thinking about the passenger before this escalates to a higher body. HOWEVER, CDR fares ARE still available from Chester/Capenhurst/Bache towards Liverpool.
Liverpool CDRs are not offered by the TVM at Capenhurst or it didn't when I checked last Friday.
The TVM at Moorfields does allow CDRs to Chester two weeks back so I assumed otherwise, but thanks for updating the situation.
No problem. I'll have another check this Friday.
Have to say this whole business is very poor.
While you are no doubt right about this officially, there is a very good argument that as this new product was explicitly marketed by the company as a replacement for the CDR (e.g. on the publicity material) it should be offered in cases where the passenger would previously be sold a CDR. Obviously it's a grey area but I suspect that given the wording on the company's own publicity the favour would land on the passenger if anyone were brave enough to appeal it.
What has happened in effect, however, is that staff simply aren't thinking about (or didn't know in the first place!) which of the tickets they were selling were anytime day returns and which were off-peak day returns, so just sell what the computer brings up regardless of the new offer.
Incidentally, can anyone confirm whether railcard discounts are definitely being offered with the day saver tickets?
Have inspected YNG and SNR railcard discounted tickets. I've not seen any other discount given.
apart from the new deal card all railcards get a discount £4.50 tkt is £3.10 with railcard
...So passengers given a SDR to Chester at £3.55 (YNG) have been mis-sold. Fantastic.
This has still not been sorted. Ticket machine at Bache still only offers Anytime Returns, not the £4.40 tkt.
An email from Merseyrail says:
"we are asking customers to purchase their tickets for whichever journey they are undertaking, and to exchange them at any Merseyrail station, for the Day Saver ticket. A refund of any difference will also be made."
No signs at Bache station and yesterday lots of casual travellers paying over the odds.
I did wonder how long it would take Merseyrail to realise that the current TVM software isn't compatible with rangers/rovers! They only need to add 'northwirralines' as a destination though...
It's about £30k per machine just to get additional languages installed, so to add extra destinations may be too costly in their opinion, but I can only speculate.
I don't think they've intentionally set out to rip people off, probably more a case of someone not thinking about unstaffed station situations.
Just an early notice that Merseyrail/Northern should be introducing smartcard technology in Merseyside very similar to oyster from Summer 2011. http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/newsarticle.asp?articleid=1751&catid=1