Bikes on trains (Southeastern) questions

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bungle73

On Moderation
Joined
19 Aug 2011
Messages
2,587
Location
Kent
Two questions:

One, why are SE so secretive about the location of the bike places on their trains. There is no indication at all of their location on the outside; and in fact I didn't even know that they existed at all (being a regular user) until someone pointed out where they are on here a while ago! Even with the application of the new livery there is still no indication.

Two, can the bike restriction info given by the NRE website be fully trusted? According to that there are no restrictions on bikes on the 16:55 Blackfriars to Dover Priory, yet this train runs within the stated bike ban times given by SE.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
7,248
Location
UK
Two questions:

One, why are SE so secretive about the location of the bike places on their trains. There is no indication at all of their location on the outside; and in fact I didn't even know that they existed at all (being a regular user) until someone pointed out where they are on here a while ago! Even with the application of the new livery there is still no indication.

How are they "secretive" ? There has been bike spaces on the trains for as long as I can remember. As a regular user I'm stunned you haven't come across them. That said, how can they help ? Bike spaces are clearly marked inside the units. Do you believe that an indication on the outside of the unit would be helpful ?

Bike information is available on the website. Is it not clear ? Is it ambiguous ? Difficult to find ? Again, how can they help ?

Do you have any suggestions ?

Are you aware of the various ways to contact Southeastern ? Have you been to one of the many "meet the manager" sessions
 

Bungle73

On Moderation
Joined
19 Aug 2011
Messages
2,587
Location
Kent
How are they "secretive" ?

Because it seems to me that there aren't interested in advertising the fact that they are there. AFAIK they aren't even mentioned on SE's website, last time I checked.

There has been bike spaces on the trains for as long as I can remember. As a regular user I'm stunned you haven't come across them.
The implication at first glance is that area is purely for wheelchair users.

That said, how can they help ? Bike spaces are clearly marked inside the units.
Well not really. It's a tiny sign that you might not even notice unless you were looking for it. And how does that help someone getting on the train with a bike? It's a bit late once you're already aboard!

Do you believe that an indication on the outside of the unit would be helpful ?

Well, yeah; as I outlined above.

Bike information is available on the website. Is it not clear ? Is it ambiguous ? Difficult to find ? Again, how can they help ?

Where? Where on the website does it mention anything about dedicated space for bikes?

Do you have any suggestions ?

Yeah, that markings are applied to the outside of trains so people with bikes know where to get on. If you look at other operators, SWT for example, all the bike spaces are clearly marked on the exterior of the trains.

Have you been to one of the many "meet the manager" sessions
No. Because they are all in London, and I live in Kent. I only travel up to London now and again.
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
7,248
Location
UK
The implication at first glance is that area is purely for wheelchair users.

I'll take a closer look next time I'm onboard.

Well not really. It's a tiny sign that you might not even notice unless you were looking for it. And how does that help someone getting on the train with a bike? It's a bit late once you're already aboard!

Mostly because you mentioned your a regular user so I was shocked you hadn't noticed before.

Do you have suggestions to improve onboard signage

Where? Where on the website does it mention anything about dedicated space for bikes?

Apologies again but I'm referring to the nre vs SE website information. Is the information about when bikes are allowed and the information about fold down bikes not readily available or clear enough ?

Yeah, that markings are applied to the outside of trains so people with bikes know where to get on. If you look at other operators, SWT for example, all the bike spaces are clearly marked on the exterior of the trains.

Does it work ? I only take my bike on trains on a couple of occasions. From what I see as a passenger and a driver is that bikes get stuck on anywhere but the space designed for bikes. How big of an issue is it for you to use any space compared to the official bike space ?


No. Because they are all in London, and I live in Kent. I only travel up to London now and again.

Pretty sure they have been in and around Kent. Would you go to one if you had the opportunity ? Should they be better advertised ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just to confirm. There has been Meet the Manager sessions in Kent and more planned.
 

Bungle73

On Moderation
Joined
19 Aug 2011
Messages
2,587
Location
Kent
Mostly because you mentioned your a regular user so I was shocked you hadn't noticed before.

Why would I have noticed when the signage is practically non-existent? As I said, the implication is that the area is purely for wheelchairs, considering that it's a big open space next to the disabled toilet, and that the only markings on the exterior are to indicate a disabled space.

Do you have suggestions to improve onboard signage

As I keep saying to you, it's not the interior signage that's the problem, it's the non-existant exterior signage. What use is interior signage if you're already on the train??

Apologies again but I'm referring to the nre vs SE website information. Is the information about when bikes are allowed and the information about fold down bikes not readily available or clear enough ?
I'm not sure what you mean?

Does it work ? I only take my bike on trains on a couple of occasions. From what I see as a passenger and a driver is that bikes get stuck on anywhere but the space designed for bikes.
Maybe because they don't know where the bike space is...or that it exists at all; or because the bike space is not available to use.

How big of an issue is it for you to use any space compared to the official bike space ?

Not sure what you mean? Surely it's better to put a bike where there has been space designed for it?



Pretty sure they have been in and around Kent. Would you go to one if you had the opportunity ? Should they be better advertised ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just to confirm. There has been Meet the Manager sessions in Kent and more planned.
Kent is a big county. Unless it was pretty local it wouldn't be that much better than London tbh. Anyway, I'm not that big on talking to people face to face.
 

telstarbox

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
5,204
Location
Wennington Crossovers
There are no spaces on the 465s and 466s so you have to put the bike in the doorway and then move it at stations where the doors open on that side.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
@ComUtoR: it is useful to have the bike sign on the outside (other TOCs do this) because you can't wheel a bike easily through the train and it's easier to board next to the space in the first place.
 

Bungle73

On Moderation
Joined
19 Aug 2011
Messages
2,587
Location
Kent
There are no spaces on the 465s and 466s so you have to put the bike in the doorway and then move it at stations where the doors open on that side.
I'm talking about the 375s, which are the trains that run on my line.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
@ComUtoR: it is useful to have the bike sign on the outside (other TOCs do this) because you can't wheel a bike easily through the train and it's easier to board next to the space in the first place.

This^
 

notlob.divad

Established Member
Joined
19 Jan 2016
Messages
1,521
On all trains it would be wonderful if the location of bike racks was identified on the outside of the train, and that there was an indication before the train arrived roughly where on the train the rack would be. Quite often they are at one end of the train, which means hanging around in the middle of the platform (usually the busiest part) and then when the first carriage gets to you running in one direction or the other. That is more than just a bit of a pain with a 10,11, 12 car train.

They used to have coloured zones on platforms, Orange, Purple etc. And they would announce 1st class as being in the xxxx Zone, or even the zones of specific carriages. It would be great to see something like that return listing 1st Class, Luggage/Bike areas and Wheelchair friendly access. If you are a regular you will get used to it, but public transport announcements and signage needs to be geared for the occasional user.
 

Class 466

Member
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Messages
846
Surely a big Red/Maroon outline around the entire space on the exterior (on the refurbished units) is enough?

The cycle space is in either the centre coach on a 3 car or one of the two centre coaches on a 4 car... and whilst Cycles can be stored there I'd imagine wheelchair users take something of a priority...
 

Bungle73

On Moderation
Joined
19 Aug 2011
Messages
2,587
Location
Kent
Surely a big Red/Maroon outline around the entire space on the exterior (on the refurbished units) is enough?
How is it "enough". How is Joe Public supposed to know what that means....?

The cycle space is in either the centre coach on a 3 car or one of the two centre coaches on a 4 car... and whilst Cycles can be stored there I'd imagine wheelchair users take something of a priority...
I'm not sure what you mean by "and whilst bikes can be stored there" like it isn't the proper place put them.....? And there is plenty of space to have a bike and a wheelchair in that area. I'm not sure what the last part is getting at tbh......?
 

telstarbox

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
5,204
Location
Wennington Crossovers
Wheelchair users do take priority but there is also specific cycle provision - essentially straps similar to car seat belts to hold the bike upright. There is space for one wheelchair and bikes on the other side at the same time.

As Class 466 says, look for the maroon area on the refurbished Class 375s.
 

notlob.divad

Established Member
Joined
19 Jan 2016
Messages
1,521
How is it "enough". How is Joe Public supposed to know what that means....?

This, very much this. If you are not a regular user of the service, but decide to take your bicycle with you for the day. How on earth are you supposed to know a) where to stand on the platform and b) which door to get in and c) where to store it to make your and every other passengers life easier. This is not just Southeastern, it is an issue with all trains.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
65,600
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
How are they "secretive" ? There has been bike spaces on the trains for as long as I can remember. As a regular user I'm stunned you haven't come across them. That said, how can they help ? Bike spaces are clearly marked inside the units. Do you believe that an indication on the outside of the unit would be helpful ?

Yes, very much so. Not everyone remembers the layout and orientation of every train.

This sort of thing:



is good, full-height better. Same for wheelchair and pram space, and a nice yellow stripe (which I believe SE have done) and big 1s for First Class.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They used to have coloured zones on platforms, Orange, Purple etc. And they would announce 1st class as being in the xxxx Zone, or even the zones of specific carriages. It would be great to see something like that return listing 1st Class, Luggage/Bike areas and Wheelchair friendly access. If you are a regular you will get used to it, but public transport announcements and signage needs to be geared for the occasional user.

VWC have started doing this with numbers, dividing the platform into about 10 zones. The advantage of this (or Swiss/German style letters) is that they form an obvious sequence unlike the colours.
 

alxndr

Member
Joined
3 Apr 2015
Messages
898
GWR is very good with bikes, or at least at Swindon, I've never paid attention anywhere else. True, it's easier with HSTs as there's only two places that bikes can be, albeit at completely opposite ends of the train, but it's a very good solution.

They announce something along the lines of "First class is at the rear of the train, standard class is at the middle and front, and bicycle spaces are at the very front" (or vice versa), so assuming you have a basic understanding of geography and where you're heading, you know where to go. There's signs on the platforms, logos on the doors, and leaflets at stations which explain where the spaces are on each train, with photos to enable people to identify which sort of train is applicable to them.
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
7,248
Location
UK
Why would I have noticed when the signage is practically non-existent? As I said, the implication is that the area is purely for wheelchairs, considering that it's a big open space next to the disabled toilet, and that the only markings on the exterior are to indicate a disabled space.

I'll upload the pictures when I can but the signage is not non existent. There is no implication it's purely for wheelchairs.

As I keep saying to you, it's not the interior signage that's the problem, it's the non-existant exterior signage. What use is interior signage if you're already on the train??
Maybe because they don't know where the bike space is...or that it exists at all; or because the bike space is not available to use.

That's the point of interior signage. You would then know that bike spaces are available and their locations. It may not help at that moment but it would help in the future and regular travellers would also be much more aware of the availability of bike spaces. Surely you can see that interior signage would help. I don't know the location of toilets but when I need to pee I would look for signage to direct me.

Not sure what you mean? Surely it's better to put a bike where there has been space designed for it?

Not always. As I've learned from this forum. The space allocated isn't always functional and may not be suitable for your type of bike. They are also not conveniently located for platform access. It's the same with the disabled access. We have to ignore it for certain locations as you can't use the ramp to get off and a couple of locations exit at a wall. So in terms of your issue it my be that others are deciding not to use the bike space because they do not find it useful. I've heard various comments over the years from those who choose not to use it.


Kent is a big county. Unless it was pretty local it wouldn't be that much better than London tbh. Anyway, I'm not that big on talking to people face to face.

Ashford, Gillingham, Tonbridge, Orpington, Bromley South, Sevenoaks. All have had meet the manager sessions.

This is a simple issue and relatively easy to fix. Complaining on a forum is not helpful to your cause. The best way would be to speak to those who can initiate change directly. At a time where Southeastern are trying to engage with their passengers I would say you are in a good position to influence change.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
@ComUtoR: it is useful to have the bike sign on the outside (other TOCs do this) because you can't wheel a bike easily through the train and it's easier to board next to the space in the first place.

Yeah I totally understand. What I'd like to know is how effective it is on other TOCs. I've noticed people tend to ignore signage and still do what they wish. I'd also be concerned if it caused boarding issues where bikers will congregate and potentially cause blockages, which have been brought up on this forum before.

I would like to know if a train going into a platform at 30mph is slow enough for someone to notice the sign then move their bike once it's stopped. As I say I don't take my bike on a train enough to know how effective a sign is.

It's easily remedied so for me it's not an issue but if I was to suggest it internally then I'd like to have enough ammo to support it.
 

Attachments

  • WP_20160420_13_16_47_Raw.jpg
    WP_20160420_13_16_47_Raw.jpg
    81.4 KB · Views: 38
  • WP_20160420_13_17_37_Raw.jpg
    WP_20160420_13_17_37_Raw.jpg
    63 KB · Views: 37
Last edited:

Bungle73

On Moderation
Joined
19 Aug 2011
Messages
2,587
Location
Kent
I'll upload the pictures when I can but the signage is not non existent. There is no implication it's purely for wheelchairs.
Where is it then? All the there is a tiny sign a few centimetres big that, iirc, is only a basic diagram of how to use the straps.


That's the point of interior signage. You would then know that bike spaces are available and their locations. It may not help at that moment but it would help in the future and regular travellers would also be much more aware of the availability of bike spaces. Surely you can see that interior signage would help. I don't know the location of toilets but when I need to pee I would look for signage to direct me.

I'm not sure if you're being serious here? How is finding the toilet in any way related? Are you seriously suggesting that someone should start wheeling their bike through the train in search of the elusive bike space.

The time when someone needs to know where the space is when they are getting on the train; not when they are already on it. It's too late then!

I've heard various comments over the years from those who choose not to use it.
Like what?

Ashford, Gillingham, Tonbridge, Orpington, Bromley South, Sevenoaks. All have had meet the manager sessions.

None of those are good to me because I can't easily get to them, apart from Gillingham. Bromley is the same as London. But as I say, I don't really like talking face to face.

This is a simple issue and relatively easy to fix. Complaining on a forum is not helpful to your cause. The best way would be to speak to those who can initiate change directly. At a time where Southeastern are trying to engage with their passengers I would say you are in a good position to influence change.

I was searching for some kind of explanation. I thought someone here might know.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Exactly, as I just described. And something that is very easy to miss if you're not specifically looking for it. And that is useless unless you already happen to be in that section with your bike.
 
Last edited:

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
7,248
Location
UK
Where is it then? All the there is a tiny sign a few centimetres big that, iirc, is only a basic diagram of how to use the straps.

I've posted the pics. It's kinda big and hard to miss.


I'm not sure if you're being serious here? How is finding the toilet in any way related? Are you seriously suggesting that someone should start wheeling their bike through the train in search of the elusive bike space.

I'm being very serious. I'm not suggesting you wheel bikes through a train. Onlynthatbsignage is helpful. Maybe not at that exact moment but the next time you board you are much more aware of their existence and their location.

The time when someone needs to know where the space is when they are getting on the train; not when they are already one it. It's too late then!

Obviously so and that is easily addressed. That doesn't exclude removing all interior signage. There are signs for baby changing but I'm not about to wheel a pram through a train either. You initially mentioned that you were not aware they existed but interior signage would have made you aware.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Exactly, as I just described. And something that is very easy to miss if you're not specifically looking for it. And that is useless unless you already happen to be in that section with your bike.

It's pretty damn big tbvh.

You could also have signs (like the toilet ones) that direct you to the bike spaces.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As to an explanation. It may just be that SE are unaware it was an issue. It's never come up on any passenger surveys that I'm aware of.

Meet the manager is a perfect example of a way that you can communicate issues with southeastern. You can also tweet them and send them emails.

As I say. This appears to be something that can be resolved with little effort.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,583
In Copenhagen the marking is subtle


On Greater Anglia Class 317s it is possible for the designated bike space to be in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th carriage of each unit.

In practice people use the vestibules. Almost every platform is on the left for a Cambridge service. Only on the right if using 1 or 4 at Broxbourne (slow train being overtaken), same at Harlow (rare for Cambridge services) or platform 3 at Bishops Stortford (very very rare for Cambridge services. Causes little problem.
 

Attachments

  • copenhagen train bike.jpg
    copenhagen train bike.jpg
    108.2 KB · Views: 58

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
5,165
Two questions:

One, why are SE so secretive about the location of the bike places on their trains. There is no indication at all of their location on the outside; and in fact I didn't even know that they existed at all (being a regular user) until someone pointed out where they are on here a while ago! Even with the application of the new livery there is still no indication.

Uh???? SouthEastern have cycle spaces? I've taken my cycle on SouthEastern a fair few times, and have never noticed the existence of any specific cycle spaces on the trains. I always leave my bike by a door (and move it if the door on that side is going to open at a station).

Maybe that provides evidence for your point? ;)
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
7,248
Location
UK
Uh???? SouthEastern have cycle spaces? I've taken my cycle on SouthEastern a fair few times, and have never noticed the existence of any specific cycle spaces on the trains. I always leave my bike by a door (and move it if the door on that side is going to open at a station).

Maybe that provides evidence for your point? ;)

Which units do you use ?

375's have a space (pic provided) 376's have a space but networkers do not.
 

telstarbox

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
5,204
Location
Wennington Crossovers
It's not too bad on the Dartford/North Kent lines as nearly all the stations have the same platform layout (one platform each side), so you can usually leave the bike by the north side doors heading into London, and the south side doors heading out of London.

The exceptions I can recall are St John's, Abbey Wood and Dartford.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top