Birmingham and HS2

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HSTEd

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But the new HS2 station will be located quite close to Bham intl, why go to the expense of building a new station for existing WCML services when you already have a station that is linked to the airport by monorail and will provide a quick interchange with HS2.

The monorail is hardly going to provide "quick" connections. Much of the journey time advances of HS2 would be bled waiting for the monorail, travelling on the monorail and then waiting for the connection at the other end.

It would take far longer and be a far greater psychological barrier than crossing a footbridge or the like would be.
Ideally the two track fans would be interlaced so that every HS2 platform was across an island from a classic one heading in the same general direction - North with North and South with South.
 
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edwin_m

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The times I travel on Chiltern there appears to be relatively few Birmingham to London passengers. For intermediate stops those south of Warwick will presumably still find it faster on Chiltern. Those in Solihull will face a choice of going into Birmingham and crossing over to Curzon Street or driving to Interchange unless a new public transport link is provided.

I think the Chiltern Birmingham service will survive on something like its present frequency, but maybe with more intermediate stops because they will be more important than end-to-end journeys. People along the route are getting the disruption of HS2 construction but no station to access it - the least they can expect is a good service into London and into Birmingham where they can connect onto HS2 at Moor Street to go further north.
 

Harbornite

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The monorail is hardly going to provide "quick" connections. Much of the journey time advances of HS2 would be bled waiting for the monorail, travelling on the monorail and then waiting for the connection at the other end.

It would take far longer and be a far greater psychological barrier than crossing a footbridge or the like would be.
Ideally the two track fans would be interlaced so that every HS2 platform was across an island from a classic one heading in the same general direction - North with North and South with South.


But is building a new station really worth the expenditure? Would you realign the existing railway?
 

HSTEd

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But is building a new station really worth the expenditure? Would you realign the existing railway?

I don't think I would abandon the existing alignment, after all that would mean scrapping the existing platforms which have been built up at great expense.
But I would project that a large number of trains would go through the new platforms for better interchange.
 

azz7008

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The Chiltern long distance market will not survive the arrival of HS2 however.
If any low cost slower service appears it will inevitably be on the WCML, which has a variety of operational advantages. 110mph Class 350s will cost far less to operate than the stock that Chiltern would have to use.

As Deltic has also said, there will definitely be a clear market post HS2. Even for somebody like me (coming from the relative north of Warwick), Chiltern services are definitely faster than driving to Coventry or potentially travelling to Birmingham to get to London.

This in addition to the fact that people will mostly prefer the ease of a direct train, means that there is many towns such as Leamington Spa and Warwick (housing expansions in the area), along with towns further south such as High Wycombe and Bicester where people are going to prefer catching the train at their 'local' station rather than travelling to Coventry or Milton Keynes (even with EW rail). You are correct when you predict that the perceived advantages of travelling with Chiltern will go down. The leisure traveller will not be bound by time restrictions and if the Chiltern rolling stock is superior to the class 350 (as is now) people will inevitably choose Chiltern.
 

HSTEd

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Building an entire business model off of leisure travellers is problematic however, they can fill trains with commuters almost without limit, so the choice becomes "superior" rolling stock for a relatively small number of longer distance travellers, or catering to their natural market by using higher capacity rolling stock for shorter journeys.

One interesting option might be to restore the section chord/branch thing between Kenilworth and Berkswell, the alignment looks intact and it would enable Chiltern trains to route into Birmingham International and connect going northbound with HS2. [Especially if my proposed modified station is built]. Which crushes the journey time from Warwick to Birmingham International and likely makes a double back a reasonable prospect.
Indeed a double back is almost journey time competitive without such works depending on the transfer time between Moor Street and Curzon street. [Indeed I am beginning to think they should be called Moor Street upper and lower to play up the connection angle]
 
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edwin_m

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One interesting option might be to restore the section chord/branch thing between Kenilworth and Berkswell, the alignment looks intact and it would enable Chiltern trains to route into Birmingham International and connect going northbound with HS2. [Especially if my proposed modified station is built]. Which crushes the journey time from Warwick to Birmingham International and likely makes a double back a reasonable prospect.
Indeed a double back is almost journey time competitive without such works depending on the transfer time between Moor Street and Curzon street. [Indeed I am beginning to think they should be called Moor Street upper and lower to play up the connection angle]

I think you've destroyed your own argument there. There's little point in making an expensive new link to International, where people will then need to transfer to HS2 by peoplemover, if the same connection can be made essentially within the same station at Moor Street. If there is demand and capacity for Chiltern to serve International (predominantly for airport/NEC/local are rather than HS2 connections) then they could do so on the existing route and also serve the major station of Coventry.
 

The Planner

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One interesting option might be to restore the section chord/branch thing between Kenilworth and Berkswell, the alignment looks intact and it would enable Chiltern trains to route into Birmingham International and connect going northbound with HS2. [Especially if my proposed modified station is built]. Which crushes the journey time from Warwick to Birmingham International and likely makes a double back a reasonable prospect.
Indeed a double back is almost journey time competitive without such works depending on the transfer time between Moor Street and Curzon street. [Indeed I am beginning to think they should be called Moor Street upper and lower to play up the connection angle]

HS2 obliterates that alignment and sits on it pretty much from Kenilworth and Berkswell. The interchange between Curzon St and Moor St should be fairly small considering they will pretty much share the same concourse. Any idea of a new or realigned Coventry corridor is just crayonsita though and will never happen.
 

azz7008

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HS2 obliterates that alignment and sits on it pretty much from Kenilworth and Berkswell. The interchange between Curzon St and Moor St should be fairly small considering they will pretty much share the same concourse. Any idea of a new or realigned Coventry corridor is just crayonsita though and will never happen.

Presumably the Leamington to Coventry line will remain intact post HS2?
 

azz7008

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Yes, or else Kenilworth station wouldn't have been given the go-ahead, which I believe it has.

Oh yes, completely forgot about that, I believe they have started work on it. Also I am guessing there is plans to double track all of it as XC are going to move all their via Solihull's and there will be a new LM service on it?
 

The Planner

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Not all of it, only Milverton to Kenilworth. You dont need all of it doing until you push more trains down it than the second XC.
 

Class 170101

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Has there been any thoughts to SW to NE track links to HS2 in the Birmingham area to speed up XC services between Birmingham and York?
 

The Planner

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Got killed off before Hybrid bill. If 2B gets canned then they could come back on to the fag packet.
 

Class 170101

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Got killed off before Hybrid bill. If 2B gets canned then they could come back on to the fag packet.

Don't see why the link would be built without phase 2B.

In any event if Phase 2B doesn't get built then it shows how London Centric the scheme is - and it shouldn't be.
 

BantamMenace

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Not all of it, only Milverton to Kenilworth. You dont need all of it doing until you push more trains down it than the second XC.

Will this give double track all the way from Leamington to Kenilworth leaving only a short stretch between Kenilworth and the A45 as single track? Was there a reason for leaving this short section as single track.

In my non-expert opinion I presumed doubling of this line would be relatively quickly followed by electrification and extension of the Birmingham to Coventry locals to Leamington platform 4. Obviously not.
 

Trog

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Yes the section of single line was originally a deliberate ploy by the LNWR to reduce capacity, giving them an excuse to keep the GWR out of the Coventry Coal Field.
 

Heartland

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Birmingham train services have had periods of success and. times of lesser success. There are reminders to this day of the railway age and in particular the contest between I K Brunel and Robert Stephenson, that is the remaining masonry structures on the Bordesley Viaduct intended to link the Birmingham & Oxford Junction Railway with Curzon Street. Today Curzon Street is an open space awaiting the prospect of HS2 being built. There is space between both for extra platforms for commuter use and Camp Hill line trains could use them in stead of making a difficult chord. There is also the need for better pedestrian routes between Moor Street and New Street.
 

azz7008

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There is also the need for better pedestrian routes between Moor Street and New Street.

I agree. I think there needs to be an underground subway kind of thing to link all three. The tram link doesn't justify it for me. Surely an underground subway with some shops on the walk will provide a good incentive to offset the high costs?
 

Geezertronic

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I agree. I think there needs to be an underground subway kind of thing to link all three. The tram link doesn't justify it for me. Surely an underground subway with some shops on the walk will provide a good incentive to offset the high costs?

Wouldn't the Moor Street to Snow Hill tunnel and New Street itself be in the way of any further underground development in that area? Presumably the cost would be prohibitive
 
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The New Street to Moor Street (& ultimately Curzon Street) link is quite poor quality. Heavily trafficked by pedestrians, but definitely feels like a service route. I'd say it's up to BCC to come up with and to implement a better scheme. After all, it's rubbish now - long before HS2 arrives.
 

quantinghome

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Is there any plan to allow for passive provision of platforms on the New Street lines passing Curzon Street station? I can understand HS2's reluctance to add to their already significant costs creating a larger interchange, but it would make sense to at least allow the possibility in future.
 

deltic

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Is there any plan to allow for passive provision of platforms on the New Street lines passing Curzon Street station? I can understand HS2's reluctance to add to their already significant costs creating a larger interchange, but it would make sense to at least allow the possibility in future.

No - its been considered but the negative impact on services in and out of New Street were regarded as unacceptable
 

Richard_B

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Is there any plan to allow for passive provision of platforms on the New Street lines passing Curzon Street station? I can understand HS2's reluctance to add to their already significant costs creating a larger interchange, but it would make sense to at least allow the possibility in future.

Sticking platforms on the pinch point is the sort of madness Welwyn North, and only Welwyn North exist to demostrate
 

HowardGWR

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Mark's plan is making the best of a very bad job. If I am travelling by train from Cheltenham to Leeds, I do not want to get out of a train, traipse up and around New St and then walk half a mile to get an HS2 to Leeds.

Such journeys will be needed until someone sees sense (unless I missed a planned connection allowing CC trains to reverse in Curzon St).
 

quantinghome

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Sticking platforms on the pinch point is the sort of madness Welwyn North, and only Welwyn North exist to demostrate

Clearly you wouldn't just stick platforms by the existing tracks. The whole approach would need to be rebuilt with at least two platforms for each of the four lines so that capacity is maintained (similar to the Reading station upgrade). All very expensive and disruptive no doubt, but it would be an idea to at least allow for the option in future, if it's theoretically possible to do so. If it's not possible, then fair enough. Other cities like Lille have the high speed station separated from the main local station and seem to cope.
 

matacaster

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Following the announcement about curtailing gwml electrification delay, i believe as i have always believed hs2,will get no farther north than Birmingham. Hs3 is a gonner too i reckon. If they cant do something simple like gwml, god help them when nr London bods actually go north and see the Pennines.
 
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