Bittern to be housed at former Hornby factory site

[156443]

Steam locomotive Bittern first exhibit to be housed at former Hornby factory site

https://theisleofthanetnews.com/ste...t-to-be-housed-at-former-hornby-hobbies-site/

The classic Gresley Class A4 Pacific locomotive, Bittern, will arrive in Thanet on June 2 for storage and eventual public display.

Bittern is a sister locomotive to the world steam record holding “Mallard” and will be housed at the newly prepared facility in Margate operated by Locomotive Storage Ltd.

Note to admins: please edit where appropriate

 

[EbbwJunction1]

That's interesting; I wonder whether it will eventually have a rail connection, or whether everything will be brought in (and out?) by road?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

From memory, Westwood is in the middle of nowhere - hence the low lowders

 

[nat67]

Why is Bittern going to be stored, she was on the main line a few years ago.

 

[matt]

Why is Bittern going to be stored, she was on the main line a few years ago.

It's waiting it's turn in the overhaul queue.

 

[gtis]

Will Mallard ever be returned to steam

 

[EbbwJunction1]

From memory, Westwood is in the middle of nowhere - hence the low lowders

You might be being a bit harsh on the site, actually. The Hornby Visitor Centre web site (it's in the same building) says this about access:

By Bus
The Thanet Loop runs from Margate, Broadstairs, and Ramsgate. The Loop will drop you off outside the Hornby building. Tel: 08456 00 22 99 for information on specific bus times or journeys.

By Rail
There are frequent trains from London Victoria and Charing Cross to Margate, Broadstairs and Ramsgate. Journey times are approximately 1 hour 50 minutes (Victoria).
Website: www.nationalrail.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0) 8457 484 950
Textphone: +44 (0) 845 6050 600
Top tip for travelling by train: Stay on the train to Ramsgate Station instead of Margate and catch the Thanet Loop bus service from the station to Hornby. It is also possible to catch the Thanet Loop bus service from Cecil Square in Margate, but it is a 0.5mile (uphill) walk.

I don't know how often the bus runs, but it looks promising - but, of course, academic if it's not going to be open to the public!

I hadn't heard of Locomotive Storage Ltd before, but I see that they're based at Crewe Diesel Depot. Their web site says that they own or are responsible for 14 locos as follows:

Royal Scot
Lord Dowding
Bittern
Britannia
King Edward I
Blue Peter
Nunney Castle
The Sherwood Forester
Raveningham Hall
Port Line
Holland America Line
Braunton
4270
92212

The only one that I'm not familiar with is The Sherwood Forester, but I see that it's Black 5 No. 45231.

 

[Cowley]

That’s quite some collection isn’t it?
Somewhat ‘Fantasy Railway League’...
You can also add 45112, 47501, 47805, 47810, 47816, 47841 (and possibly others?), 55016 and 55022.
Also I believe 40013 on lease?
Impressive stuff...

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

Locomotive Storage Ltd is better known as Royal Scot Locomotive and General Trust (RSL&GT), owned by Jeremy Hosking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Scot_Locomotive_and_General_Trust. They're bidding to become a TOC under the name Locomotive Services Ltd

 

[nat67]

Will Mallard ever be returned to steam

Unfortunately that wont happen due to all the foreign tourists and NRM (Never Railway's More Money).

 

[matt]

Locomotive Storage Ltd is better known as Royal Scot Locomotive and General Trust (RSL&GT), owned by Jeremy Hosking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Scot_Locomotive_and_General_Trust. They're bidding to become a TOC under the name Locomotive Services Ltd

They have already become a TOC and have operated several tours now under the Saphos brand.

 

[DarloRich]

Why Margate?

Unfortunately that wont happen due to all the foreign tourists and NRM (Never Railway's More Money).

what on earth are you takling about?

 

[nat67]

Why Margate?



what on earth are you takling about?

Just how the NRM don't do anything but 60103 and wont bring back Mallard as someone requested.

 

[DarloRich]

Just how the NRM don't do anything but 60103 and wont bring back Mallard as someone requested.

have a think why. Could it be that their reserves were somewhat depleted by rebuilding FS ( which I am sure will recoup those costs in time) and don't want to go through, nor can afford to, go through that again.

 

[nat67]

have a think why. Could it be that their reserves were somewhat depleted by rebuilding FS ( which I am sure will recoup those costs in time) and don't want to go through, nor can afford to, go through that again.

The cost of rebuilding FS was a lot, yes but the matter about Mallard was that will it won't come back because of tourists and they have Never thought about the cost of it but FS as you say will gain them a lot in the pocket. Maybe for the cost of getting 87001 back possibly.

 

[DarloRich]

The cost of rebuilding FS was a lot, yes but the matter about Mallard was that will it won't come back because of tourists and they have Never thought about the cost of it but FS as you say will gain them a lot in the pocket. Maybe for the cost of getting 87001 back possibly.

I suspect "they have Never thought about the cost of it" because it wouldn't be worth the risk to either the historic locomotive or the finance or reputation of the museum. Also why restore 87001? Once again posters here fail to understand the purpose of the NRM.

 

[nat67]

I suspect "they have Never thought about the cost of it" because it wouldn't be worth the risk to either the historic locomotive or the finance or reputation of the museum. Also why restore 87001? Once again posters here fail to understand the purpose of the NRM.

They would make money if they put it on railtours, but in the mean time they could move it out of the dark side and put it back in the great hall to be proud of.

 

[DarloRich]

They would make money if they put it on railtours, but in the mean time they could move it out of the dark side and put it back in the great hall to be proud of.

Does it mean anything to 5 year old boys or the hated tourists visiting the museum? Does it have a story to tell that is of interest to real people? Do you really think rail tours for an electric locomotive would attract normal people with no interest in trains?

This is OT but shows how this board simply fails to understand the purpose of the NRM.

 

[Bensonby]

A different question, but not really worthy of a new thread: Is there any way of finding out where one of the three “active” A4’s will be at any one time? I’m desperate to see an A4 in steam but have never managed it. I made a special trip to see Union of South Africa at the East Lancs Railway last year but it broke. I understand that Union Of South Africa will be permanently retired next year and the last I heard Sir Nigel Gressley was under overhaul in York, and apparently Bittern is off the mainline as per this thread: so I’m guessing my options are limited.

 

[BrunswickGreen]

A different question, but not really worthy of a new thread: Is there any way of finding out where one of the three “active” A4’s will be at any one time? I’m desperate to see an A4 in steam but have never managed it. I made a special trip to see Union of South Africa at the East Lancs Railway last year but it broke. I understand that Union Of South Africa will be permanently retired next year and the last I heard Sir Nigel Gressley was under overhaul in York, and apparently Bittern is off the mainline as per this thread: so I’m guessing my options are limited.

http://www.sirnigelgresley.org.uk/index.shtml worth checking on Sir Nigel Gresley, hopefully out late next year.

 

[Bensonby]

Thanks!

 

[aylesbury]

Glad I was able to see A4,s doing what they were meant on the ECML back in the fifties ,they were dirty but magnificent.

 

[Ianigsy]

The survival rate for A4s (6 out of 34) is better than most other comparable classes with the possible exception of the Southern Pacifics. From a commercial point of view, it makes sense not to have two similar locos competing for business and the NRM has to consider the integrity of the materials in Mallard and also the use of public money to compete commercially with privately owned engines.

By the end of next year, Sir Nigel should be running and the three other A4s in this country will be spread around quite evenly between Kent, York and Five.

 

[randyrippley]

Just to be pedantic, Meccano/Hornby were based at Binns Rd, Liverpool - very close to the Liverpool-Manchester line. Quite an apt location.

Margate was the home of Rovex Scale Models Ltd, part of the Tri-Ang group, who were responsible Tri-Ang model railways and the Minic model car range.
Hornby were taken over and shut down, and the name transferred to the Tri-Ang range to become "Tri-Ang Hornby" but all the Hornby range was discontinued. Eventually the dies and moulds for the metal bodied locos, coaches and plastic goods wagons were handed over to Wrenn to sell as expensive collectors items under the "Tri-Ang Wrenn" name. The only Hornby items which continued to be sold under the Tri-Ang Hornby name were a few model stations and a footbridge.
There's been a whole host of bankruptcies and takeovers since, but the upshot is that Bittern isn't going to a "Hornby" site. Its a former Tri-Ang site

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

A different question, but not really worthy of a new thread: Is there any way of finding out where one of the three “active” A4’s will be at any one time? I’m desperate to see an A4 in steam but have never managed it. I made a special trip to see Union of South Africa at the East Lancs Railway last year but it broke. I understand that Union Of South Africa will be permanently retired next year and the last I heard Sir Nigel Gressley was under overhaul in York, and apparently Bittern is off the mainline as per this thread: so I’m guessing my options are limited.

The best site for main line steam is this one: http://www.uksteam.info/tours/ - the steam tour programme will show you all the planned tours this year, and the loco moves shows you where you can catch them on moves, with a list at the bottom to show where they roughly all are located at the moment when not on tours. 60009 is currently on the East Lancs

 

[Bensonby]

The problem is it’s still hard to find out when they are in use even if you know where they are. I specifically went to the ELR to see 60009 last year when they especially advertised it but it was broken on the day I went. I go up north quite often and will try and do a heritage railway when I’m up there (there are about 4 within a 1-2 hour drive) but I seem to keep missing A4’s.

 

[alexl92]

To answer the Mallard question once and for all, no, it will not be restored to steam in the forseeable future. The simple reason is this: Having Mallard on display in the NRM is worth far more to the NRM in terms of visitor numbers and income (from cafe/restaurant and gift shop sales and donations) than the loco could ever hope to earn as an active loco on the mainline.

Take into account too, the cost of restoring Mallard - let’s say it was £3-4m*. All that has to be paid upfront and earned back; one major failure mid-way through its’ boiler ticket could have a devastating effect on finances.

The only way I can imagine it happening is if, in 20-odd years’ time when 60103 comes to the end of a boiler ticket, they decide to swap them over. But with 4464 and 60007 both likely to be still running I just can’t see it.

*This figure has been plucked out of thin air purely to demonstrate a point. The only calculation or comparison that has been used is simply that the new P2 will cost £5m - nothing more detailed than that!

 

[randyrippley]

Years ago I read a statement that Mallard would never be made operational because doing so would mean replacing much of the remaining original parts, and the museum preferred to keep the loco as original as possible.
Would Mallard with a new boiler, frames, firebox and cylinders actually be representative of the loco which broke the record?

 

[markindurham]

Years ago I read a statement that Mallard would never be made operational because doing so would mean replacing much of the remaining original parts, and the museum preferred to keep the loco as original as possible.

Correct. The return to steam for Mallard 50 involved as little renewal as possible, particularly the boiler, She was only approved for a limited number of steamings and loadings were kept fairly low too. I have heard it said that there were one or two "Nelson moments" regarding certain issues with the boiler, hence the limited number of steamings allowed. I very much doubt that such things would be allowed now, and to get her running again would involve an awful lot of money and the necessary replacement of a fair amount of metal anyway.

I can't see Mallard ever running again, tbh. Still, we should have Sir Nigel Gresley and Bittern to keep the A4 flag flying, once we say adieu to Union of South Africa next year.

 

[Cowley]

Correct. The return to steam for Mallard 50 involved as little renewal as possible, particularly the boiler, She was only approved for a limited number of steamings and loadings were kept fairly low too. I have heard it said that there were one or two "Nelson moments" regarding certain issues with the boiler, hence the limited number of steamings allowed. I very much doubt that such things would be allowed now, and to get her running again would involve an awful lot of money and the necessary replacement of a fair amount of metal anyway.

I can't see Mallard ever running again, tbh. Still, we should have Sir Nigel Gresley and Bittern to keep the A4 flag flying, once we say adieu to Union of South Africa next year.

Wonderful machines.
I imagine that the two other A4s (60008 and 60010) that were bought over for the anniversary get together a couple of years ago must be in even more original condition? But then what actually is original condition?
Even Mallard will have been rebuilt aplenty since the record breaking 126 mph run in 1938.
Does it really matter that much that it’s in it’s final BR condition as preserved?
In 20 years time it’ll be the anniversary of that run (which isn’t very far away in the grand scheme of things), when maybe interest in the old girl could start to pick up substantially.
So what are the chances of something along the lines of City of Truro’s 2004 mainline comeback? If 4468s boiler is in some kind of precious original condition then perhaps JH could lend Bittern’s ( ,actually isn’t there a spare one somewhere?)
It’ll probably never happen but I’d love to see Mallard on the mainline in my lifetime.