Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

Status
Not open for further replies.

GRALISTAIR

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2012
Messages
5,438
Location
Dalton Georgia USA
OK I am travelling back from the USA on Saturday June 30th and will get the train from Preston -Manchester Airport on Wednesday July 11th. Will I be able to notice any signs of electrification from Euxton Junction - Windsor Bridge-Oxford Road? Was hoping to use this thread as an update on progress. :idea:
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
9,452
No, you wont see anything noticable, theres some closures of the Bolton line planned though I forget when they start.
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
8,409
Location
Somewhere, not in London
Asside from the OHLE supports between Ordsall Lane and Castlefeild Jcn and all the vegetation clearance on route, and increase in on rail vehicles being held at Bolton, oh, and what appears to be a tunnel OHLE support in the Northbound bore at Farnworth, possibly there to investigate air flow issues, or because my eyes are playing tricks on me, but it does seem to be a shiny new piece of galv steel angle onto a 30/60 dual triangle support, so look OHLEey.
 

The_Rail_WAy

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2008
Messages
458
Really looking forward to the electrification of this line, shame its 20 years to late. One simply gasps at he thought of a diverted pendolino passing through Bolton station!!

I believe that some duties are being carried out at night in relation to clearence issues and other problematic occurences that may prose call - but most of these involve a transit van!!
 

Durham Ox

Member
Joined
14 Jul 2012
Messages
11
Location
Wrong side of the Pennines
The next phase of the NW electrification programme due to start is Preston to Blackpool which will get underway this September with 16no. structures to clear before wiring can start. This entails 12no. bridge deck reconstructions, 1no. demolition & 3no. track lowers.

Manchester to Euxton including the major schemes through Farnworth & Chorley tunnels are not programmed to start until Summer 2013.
 

eMeS

Member
Joined
12 Jun 2011
Messages
670
Location
Milton Keynes, UK
... with 16no. structures to clear before wiring can start. This entails 12no. bridge deck reconstructions, 1no. demolition & 3no. track lowers. ...


OK - I'll bite.

What ambiguity is your sector of industry trying to avoid when it attaches "no." to numerical quantities in its communications? And why didn't I need to go down the same route during my 40 years in Military Avionics, where we also specified many items with digits in them.
 

Joseph_Locke

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2012
Messages
1,868
Location
Within earshot of trains passing the one and half
OK - I'll bite.

What ambiguity is your sector of industry trying to avoid when it attaches "no." to numerical quantities in its communications? And why didn't I need to go down the same route during my 40 years in Military Avionics, where we also specified many items with digits in them.

The railway is not just a creature of the written word - it has masses of spoken, safety critical, communication and not long since (certainly within my career) still used telegraph codes in faxed communications.

Some numbers, such as one, two and four (and eight, though why you would the past tense of eat in a critical communication escapes me) can be ambiguous when spoken in sentences, particularly when the transmission medium is AM radio in a noisy background. Anything that reduces this ambiguity is good, but it is easy to let this apply accross the board, all communications.

Even the written word can get confusing without some seperators "I'll need two two by fours before four".
 

317 forever

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2010
Messages
1,177
Location
North West
Really looking forward to the electrification of this line, shame its 20 years to late. One simply gasps at he thought of a diverted pendolino passing through Bolton station!!

I believe that some duties are being carried out at night in relation to clearence issues and other problematic occurences that may prose call - but most of these involve a transit van!!

I think some weekend London-Glasgow trains were diverted via Manchester and Bolton during the WCML upgrade while the line via Warrington Bank Quay was closed. They were hauled by diesel locos but I do not believe they stopped between Crewe and Preston.

I am having a daytrip to Blackpool in October, but may advance it to September if there are engineering works between Bolton and Preston in October.
 

bailey65

Member
Joined
11 Dec 2011
Messages
131
I hope electrification of the blackpool line and a better service helps towards regenerating blackpool because at the moment it is a total s*%thole and needs a serious economic boost.
 
Last edited:

47741

Member
Joined
22 Nov 2010
Messages
13
OK - I'll bite.

What ambiguity is your sector of industry trying to avoid when it attaches "no." to numerical quantities in its communications? And why didn't I need to go down the same route during my 40 years in Military Avionics, where we also specified many items with digits in them.

This phraseology is common to many construction trades. Not sure why but I think it is an attempt to avoid ambiguity in expressions of quantity. Compare "two fish and chips" and "fish and chips twice". Never ask a contractor for the former!
 

Geeves

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2009
Messages
1,170
Location
Rochdale
I keep hearing rumors of Farnworth tunnels being demolished entirely, is there any truth? I guess it could be done with only the A666 being above.

I guess this follows the secondary rumor of the Bolton to Manchester line being closed for 4 or 5 months next year?
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
8,409
Location
Somewhere, not in London
I've heard about the line through Farnworth closing for an extended period of time, and no mitigations other than rail replacement buses being put into place, and I doubt they will be enough or sufficient...

What is 18 mins by train in rush hour will be over an hour by road, one of the reasons rail is so overcrowded on this route.

Thankfully I'll be long gone before it's shut, but it's still not a perticularly good idea when a small curve could be built East of Hindley to run services of insane length via Westhaughton and Atheton into Manchester from Bolton, and divert all other services via Eccles.
 

John55

Member
Joined
24 Jun 2011
Messages
800
Location
South East
I've heard about the line through Farnworth closing for an extended period of time, and no mitigations other than rail replacement buses being put into place, and I doubt they will be enough or sufficient...

What is 18 mins by train in rush hour will be over an hour by road, one of the reasons rail is so overcrowded on this route.

Thankfully I'll be long gone before it's shut, but it's still not a perticularly good idea when a small curve could be built East of Hindley to run services of insane length via Westhaughton and Atheton into Manchester from Bolton, and divert all other services via Eccles.

I am surprised you want to build a new railway. Especially when there is a crossover at Crow Nest junction so a reversal is quite possible.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
26,634
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
I keep hearing rumors of Farnworth tunnels being demolished entirely, is there any truth? I guess it could be done with only the A666 being above.

I would be most interested to see a Civil Engineering quotation for what you describe in the Farnworth area, not just for the work on the tunnels, but for all the utility service and road requirements connected with those works. How many residential and small industrial properties would be affected ?
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
8,409
Location
Somewhere, not in London
I am surprised you want to build a new railway. Especially when there is a crossover at Crow Nest junction so a reversal is quite possible.

Did a fair bit of thinking about potential timetabling on this kind of route, and adding that 5mins by the reversal and changing ends would make the benifits much more marginal, running non-stop to Crow's Next Jcn from Manchester is about 20 to 25mins from what I'd researched, with then roughly 5 to 7mins via Westhauton without traffic into Bolton.

A single track curve or twin track curve would be preferable because once you start pushing past the 40min mark in the off peak times a rail replacement bus would be able to keep up with the likely timings of a half hourly diverted service, making the cost of setting up the service a tad too much just for peak services.

An alternative that I'd come up with was total possession of one tunnel at a time and new crossovers being put into place to the south of Kearsley, and bi-directional running installed between there and Bolton, with a 5mph TSR going past the worksite, timetabling might be able to be pushed up to having 3tph per direction, but that would be pushing it, so 2tphpd would probably be more likely.

Looking through a quick draft I did a while back the timetable would look something like a core of:

xx:05 Bolton - Manchester Oxford Road / Manchester Piccadilly
Calling: Salford Crescent, Deansgate, (Manchester Oxford Road)
(Clears single line section by xx:15)

xx:35 Preston - Manchester Airport
Calling: Buckshaw, Chorley, Adlington, Blackrod, Horwich, Lostock, Bolton, Salford Crescent, Deansgate, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Airport
(Clears single line section by xx:45)

xx:01 (Off Piccadilly) Manchester Airport - Preston (Taking the path of the Current Liverpool L St Service)
Calling: Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Crescent, Bolton, Lostock, Horwich Parkway, Blackrod, Adlington, Buckshaw, Preston

xx:35 Manchester Oxford Road - Bolton

All operated by 6 car units, in the peaks there will be extra services to Victoria flighted behind the others, calling at Moses Gate, Farnworth and Kearsley southbound in the AM peak and northbound in the PM peak ONLY, off peak, services operated by rail replacement buses to intermediate stations, all tickets accepted on local bus services, with two additional peak services, they would call at alternate stations.

Wigan had a 2tph shuttle in place, Clitheroe terminates at Bolton, Todmorden Curve used to accomadate Blackburn.
 

John55

Member
Joined
24 Jun 2011
Messages
800
Location
South East
An alternative that I'd come up with was total possession of one tunnel at a time and new crossovers being put into place to the south of Kearsley, and bi-directional running installed between there and Bolton, with a 5mph TSR going past the worksite, timetabling might be able to be pushed up to having 3tph per direction, but that would be pushing it, so 2tphpd would probably be more likely.

Thinking about what happened at Southampton 3 years ago when a single bore double track tunnel was rebuilt for big containers (and hopefully overhead clearances at the same time) while maintaining a train service on one track at a time there should be no problem running some sort of service through the (now) 2 single bore tunnels at Farnworth.

NR would have to slew the lines across into each other north and south of the tunnel with a bit of signalling. If the will was there of course.
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
8,409
Location
Somewhere, not in London
I don;t think the will is there, passenger numbers are rather off because of the amount of people who use PTE tickets at Bolton, they should try actually counting pax numbers at some point.
 

John55

Member
Joined
24 Jun 2011
Messages
800
Location
South East
I don;t think the will is there, passenger numbers are rather off because of the amount of people who use PTE tickets at Bolton, they should try actually counting pax numbers at some point.

If you look at the TfGM website you will find they do count passengers at Bolton. The linked report gives a summary of the last few years.

http://www.transportforgreatermanch...h_west_manchester_rail_routes_market_analysis

They tie up well enough with the ORR stats for usage at Bolton so there doesn't seem to be a significant issue with undercounting of passengers.
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
8,409
Location
Somewhere, not in London
Fair enough...

Still wouldn't expect NR to install a simple crossover or curve to maintain services between Bolton and Manchester by rail, considering the amount it would cost to install it, compared with just shoving everyone on buses, I personally think it's worth it, but they might not...
 

GRALISTAIR

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2012
Messages
5,438
Location
Dalton Georgia USA
What are the challenges at the Preston end of the line? When branching on and off at Euxton Jct at the cross-over, could capacity be adversly affected in the future? What I am trying to say in a roundabout way is that when the southern end of the WCML was modernised in the late 50s early 60s and electrified, great use was made of flyovers.

Increased overall rail traffic anyway. Mcr Airport link - add in the sparks effect. I just hope there are no issues at Euxton Jct.
 
Last edited:

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
8,409
Location
Somewhere, not in London
I'd be more worried about capacity around Newton and Earlstown to be honest, the junction linespeeds are significantly lower (15mph vice 45/60 IIRC) and feed into a 2 track railway at the northern end, granted it spans out to four track shortly after, but it's a natural pinch point.
 

John55

Member
Joined
24 Jun 2011
Messages
800
Location
South East
Fair enough...

Still wouldn't expect NR to install a simple crossover or curve to maintain services between Bolton and Manchester by rail, considering the amount it would cost to install it, compared with just shoving everyone on buses, I personally think it's worth it, but they might not...

Apart form of cost for a few months of use the bigger issue is that due to the limitations of the planning process in the UK the tunnels would be rebuilt long before a new line could be authorised and constructed even if only 500m long.

I'd be more worried about capacity around Newton and Earlstown to be honest, the junction linespeeds are significantly lower (15mph vice 45/60 IIRC) and feed into a 2 track railway at the northern end, granted it spans out to four track shortly after, but it's a natural pinch point.

The limitation between Manchester and Preston via Parkside is the single track junction at Golbourne. The rest are double junctions.
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
8,409
Location
Somewhere, not in London
Apart form of cost for a few months of use the bigger issue is that due to the limitations of the planning process in the UK the tunnels would be rebuilt long before a new line could be authorised and constructed even if only 500m long.
Good point, one does have to love planning laws over here...
The limitation between Manchester and Preston via Parkside is the single track junction at Golbourne. The rest are double junctions.
Ahh yes, really need to look at my sectional appendix again, I do wonder if they'll re-model this junction at some point soon so that the flow from the Manchester direction feeds directly onto the slow lines without needing to cross over the fasts. Dowbt it for what will initially be 1tph, but could very soon be 5tph...(!)

Problem is that the line is already on an embankment at this point and by the time you've faffed around with new viaducting you might as well do a change of use on the lines and re-model just the junction, moving the Fasts to the Western side...

Then of course you're impacting on any freight that decides to run out to Haydock Park, and slow services from Liverpool via St Helens would land on the fasts, but if one needs to remain within the railway boundry, we're going to need to cross them over somewhere, it does seem that the most likely solution is to have all Ex Manchester services either using the fasts or crossing to the slows at Golbourne. But with only 3tph LDHS on the fast lines at most, isn't a tragedy....
 

BelleIsle

Member
Joined
24 Aug 2012
Messages
113
Over the last few years there has been a rolling programme of bridge renewals on the South Fylde Line. It is noticeable that the bridge height has been raised (especially when you have to cycle over them) and the walls raised in height by the addition of traingular stones. I am sure this is for OHLE. Is it standard practice to do this upon renewal as part of future proofing or is there a slim chance that the wires may reach Blackpool South at some point (yes, I know it is not in the plan). Remember, it is only a single line from Blackpool to Kirkham that needs wiring if the powers that be diverted the service away from Colne and towards Manchester Airport. You would get a few minutes saved in dwell time alone at Preston alone since virtually everyone from the Fylde gets off and all the East Lancs passengers get on.
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
8,409
Location
Somewhere, not in London
If Blackpool South does get electrified, and personally I don't see why not, it could be a good line to test the new "Tram Power" low speed cheap-o 25kV limited to 60mph electrification gantries, since it wouldn't need any more feeder stations of any kind on it, and has a nice short operational profile so overnight works and weekend possessions (in winter) aren't much of an issue.
 

John55

Member
Joined
24 Jun 2011
Messages
800
Location
South East
Good point, one does have to love planning laws over here...

Ahh yes, really need to look at my sectional appendix again, I do wonder if they'll re-model this junction at some point soon so that the flow from the Manchester direction feeds directly onto the slow lines without needing to cross over the fasts. Dowbt it for what will initially be 1tph, but could very soon be 5tph...(!)

Problem is that the line is already on an embankment at this point and by the time you've faffed around with new viaducting you might as well do a change of use on the lines and re-model just the junction, moving the Fasts to the Western side...

Then of course you're impacting on any freight that decides to run out to Haydock Park, and slow services from Liverpool via St Helens would land on the fasts, but if one needs to remain within the railway boundry, we're going to need to cross them over somewhere, it does seem that the most likely solution is to have all Ex Manchester services either using the fasts or crossing to the slows at Golbourne. But with only 3tph LDHS on the fast lines at most, isn't a tragedy....

The slow lines cross under the fast lines at Bamfurlong using the flying junctions built there for access to the large marshalling yards (long since closed) so the Liverpool - Wigans already come onto the fast lines at Springs Branch Jcn. However that was sorted out some time ago when additional connections were put in allowing trains from Liverpool and S Helens to run in to/out from platform 6 at North Western without needing to use the fast lines.

I find it hard to believe there is a real possibility of 5 trains per hour via Parkside. Only fast trains not calling at Bolton would go that way and why would you not want to call at Bolton?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top