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Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

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Toots

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I think it's because there is some confusion beteen the existing Manchester East 'signalbox' which is to house Stalybridge and possibly the Fylde line,and the Manchester ROC which will definitely house both.My fault probably in saying the Fylde was going to Manchester East,but I can only say what I've been told......and when word gets to this backwater it's probably a load of bollocks anyway!:lol:
 
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Nym

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I am not sure why the Stalybridge remodelling is being mentioned on this thread, which is about the Blackpool to Manchester Electrification.

Because electric services from Blackpool would need to either be extended cross pennine, to Glossop/Hatfeild, terminate at Stalybridge or in some reversing sidings.

Because there is very little terminating capacity at Victoria from the West, and using the through platforms reduces this further, so the logical choice is to push services through, to somewhere like, oh, Stalybridge...
 

Toots

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No,that was the other bloke on the other thread!:lol:...it's a confusing picture at the moment,the Fylde wasn't supposed to be resignalled until 2024,so it's caught everyone on the back foot a bit....
 

Nym

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... or Rochdale </watchthisspace>

Or both...

Remember what we're potentially looking at coming in from the West is anything up to:

4tph from Bolton, possibly 5 or 6tph if capacity is constrained through Oxford Road, unless we do some major re sculpting of the timetables through Bolton, hacking off Westhauton from direct services to Manchester, changing from running 2/4 car units to running 6/8 car units less often, requiring SDO or UDS for Salford Crescent.
2tph or 3tph from Atherton.

So this could be up to 9 or 10tph in the peak from Windsor Bridge, and roughly 6 or 7tph off peak.

Ordsall Lane is less relevant to the capacity constraints at Victoria as there is a lot more space to put in platforms to terminate services from here, there is also space for a degree of grade separation at Ordstall Lane to take terminating services from Eccles over the top to land able to terminate where Exchange used to be, moving walkways can take pax to these platforms, and through services (at roughly 6 or 7tph). (4tph to Leeds (2 Cord, 2 Liverpool), 2tph Calder Valley (Cord), 1tph Liverpool - Norwich)

With anything up to 5 or 6tph terminating from the direction of Eccles, (2tph Wigan, 2tph Liverpool, 1/2tph Chester via Warrington BQ). In my opinion, all of this together is too much for the four through platforms to take on their own, both in terms of passenger flow and on track capacity, and grade seperation at Ordsall Lane will need to come at some point, with 16tph per direction all using the same flat junction, with even more if you include Castlefeild Junction, adding G/S from Eccles to Victoria alters this to a basic four route merge, without any crossing traffic (CLC, Chat Moss, Windsor Bridge and Cord) since a Vic to Chat Moss service would need to cross, every, single, line, the issue currently crippling Piccadilly.

So; my personal solution that I can see to this would be:

Add in some bay platforms during CP5 or early CP6 to Victoria on the former Exchange site, 3 or 4 bay platforms.

Grade separate Ordsall Lane during the Cord works, creating a 6 track approach, an S shaped viaduct from the unused trackbed section on the Deal St - Ordsall Lane viaduct, carrying everything over the top, cord traffic will use the current tracks. The 6 tracks would all of course be bi-di etc, but assigned usage in this basic order at Deal St: (North to South) Windsor Bridge Lines, Ordsall Cord Lines, Eccles Lines, working into platfoms 5 and 6 for Windsor Lines, 3 and 4 for Cord services, and new platforms (7, 8 & 9) for terminating services, attempting to seperate everything out on the Western side of Vic.

Bay platform(s) at Rochdale added back in to push Diesel services via Windsor Bridge through to (it's on the right side of the tracks) Rochdale. Likely to be 2tph from Blackburn (Aspiration) and 2tph from Wigan via Atherton. Also including anything else you care to push through Bolton or Atherton, 4tph would actually be enough to run the Calder Valley services, but the fast services across the Calder Valley are to be extended to Chester or Airport last I checked, leaving two spare, but providing 6tph to Rochdale.

Using the Stalybridge platforms provided for EMU services from Bolton, likely to be 3 or 4tph.

Re-write the timetables West of Bolton, through services to Wigan via Bolton are nice, but are not imperative off peak. If Lostock to Wallgate becomes electrified before the cord is implemented, then it would retain through services, at 2tph EMU, with 2tph EMU from Preston in addition to this.

I think you can guess the rest of the timetable, and I need coffee, so I'll leave you with that...

EDIT:
If we're seeing a lot more services it would potentially be worth re-building Ashton Under Lyne and putting in four track from Vic to Stalybridge, 2 for the bays and 2 for through. Would probably be able to see 8tph EMU pushed through then, or some DMUs scattered in the mix too.
 

Joseph_Locke

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At that rate you'll also need to sort out grade-seperating the Windsor Bridge Junctions, particularly if the faint rumour of fast electrics Vic to Blackpool comes to anything.

However, I can see better advantage in restoring Victoria to all-through, as creating bays on the west end isn't easy (that's not negativism, we've tried and it isn't pretty - too close to Deal Street)

EDIT:

Bay platform(s) at Rochdale
Nah, a centre turnback line is the best idea.
 

Nym

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At that rate you'll also need to sort out grade-seperating the Windsor Bridge Junctions, particularly if the faint rumour of fast electrics Vic to Blackpool comes to anything.

However, I can see better advantage in restoring Victoria to all-through, as creating bays on the west end isn't easy (that's not negativism, we've tried and it isn't pretty - too close to Deal Street)

The thing is, there isn't any space to grade sep Windsor Bridge unless you're going to go down. I thought this out before and you do have space to cut and cover a line to come in from the Windsor Link Line, but this would be VERY expensive...

And as a moment to clarify what I was on about with the idea of 'exchange' bays, they wouldn't actually work with Deal St Junction in operational use, they would only be used by services coming from the Ordsall Lane Flyover I'm proposing, nothing would come into these bays from Windsor Bridge, these would all be running though 5 and 6, possibly leaching onto 3 and 4, but not into the bays 7-9, placed on the exchange site. Windsor Line services would be pushed through to Rochdale or Stalybridge.

The issue with going for all though is that for non-homogenous stock, in my opinion there are too many services to not have bay platforms taking services off the Chat Moss lines. (Please note the qualifier of non-homogenous stock, I know we can push 24tph on LUL, or on lines with all electric similar performance stock, but we won't have this at Victoria)

Since the kind of service levels by CP6 are looking something like (potentially, from the West)

>4tph Bolton
2tph Wigan via Atherton
2tph Wigan via Eccles
2tph Liverpool Lime Street Slow
2tph Liverpool Lime Street Fast
2tph Chester
4tph Manchester Airport

Yes, this is 18tph, that could just be handled by turnback sidings operationally, but would require a lot of crossing moves with the current Ordsall Lane layout, with any additional services placing a massive operational strain on the junction complex. (Hence grade seperation.)

If this grade sep flyover is provided, it will have the tendancy that services using the flyover will be looking to terminate in Manchester (all but 2tph TPE from Liverpool L St via Eccles, and possibly a Calder Valley to Chester service). It would also provide 3 pairs of lines landing at Deal St Junction, 1 from the flyover (tending to terminate), 1 from the flat Ordsall Lane (Carrying Cord Traffic), and 1 from Windsor Bridge Jcn.

One could accomplish all of this without providing additional capacity in the way of platforms at Victoria West, but this would require some forward thinking with regard to terminating capacity from Ordsall Lane / Newton / Liverpool / Wigan. (In the form of using the HS2 Northern Link to the station and junction layout I proposed aaages ago for Manchester, using 140mph Class 395 style stock to run Liverpool, Wigan, Preston and Blackpool services, only using Victoria for Bolton and locals between Wigan and Victoria.

Either way, if one removed the Deal St Conflict problems, what issues are there with knocking up some bays on the Exchange site?
 

Joseph_Locke

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The thing is, there isn't any space to grade sep Windsor Bridge unless you're going to go down. I thought this out before and you do have space to cut and cover a line to come in from the Windsor Link Line, but this would be VERY expensive...

Either way, if one removed the Deal St Conflict problems, what issues are there with knocking up some bays on the Exchange site?

Howsabout running the Victoria lines straight through towards Bolton, and the Windsor Link lines towards Wigan (e.g. no junction as such around Crescent) - examination of a map will then reveal that you could to changeover at Agecroft ...

As to the second, the issues are (in no particular order):

- The services you really want to terminate come from Southport and Wigan, not round the Chord or through Ordsall Lane, so your bays are the wrong side. Anything coming in via Ordsall and the Chord is going to Yorkshireland.
- the bridges
- the viaducts (where there aren't any bridges)
- The Greengate development (which would force the passenger flows to go via Victoria p3)
- The river bridge at Vic West
- Deal Street junction will still only be 600m away
- It moves electrifying the Calder Valley to Rochdale up the shopping list, never a bad idea
- It weakens the case for six platforms at Salford Central.

Nym said:
2tph Wigan via Eccles

You nearly slipped that one by me! Is that in lieu of the Piccadilly-Glasgow-via-Winwick-that's-possibly-going-via-Bolton service? :D
 

Joseph_Locke

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To help bring me up to speed out here in the colonies (Kansas City) what is this rumour? Are we talking fast service i.e. limited stop Man Vic -Bolton-Preston-Blackpool North? Or are we talking very fast EMUs > 100 mph?or both?

You didn't hear this from me, but possibly both. However, the route I've heard this by makes me about fifth in line, so don't buy shares just yet!
 

John55

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I hope this is rectified with an increase of line speed.

The problem at Golborne is the junction is currently on a curve and when the junction was last rebuilt it was quite rightly engineered to give the highest possible speed on the WCML. This means the track is canted for a right hand curve (from the north) and the junction wants to go left. This results in some seriously sharp changes in rail level as a vehicle goes through the junction. If you travel through the junction you really notice the vehicle sway quite dramatically. The route from the WCML via Lowton Junction is the original route and is actually straight but I don't suppose anyone wants a slow speed divergence on the WCML.

The solution would be to put in a flat junction and reduce the speed on the WCML or move the junction further north. Unfortunately the WCML junction to go from 2 to 4 tracks is only 150 yards north of the junction to the L&M so it would be a significant bit of engineering to do that.

With 3 junctions and fairly sharp curves all within 1 km the Manchester or Liverpool to Golbourne connection is never going to be fast.
 

Joseph_Locke

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With 3 junctions and fairly sharp curves all within 1 km the Manchester or Liverpool to Golbourne connection is never going to be fast.
There is a solution - grade separate Golborne, so that the slows cross under the fasts where the junction is now (land take, bridges, etc.), but as you say it doesn't speed up Parkside Jn. onto the Chat Moss and vice versa. What it would do is allow110/125EPS on the WCML, as the junction currently holds it down, which in turn may have quite a healthy business case.

Slightly more left-field would be to re-arrange the line order from Golborne to Wigan NW (as in DF-UF-DS-US and DF-UF-DS-US-DG-UG) but that's an even bigger job, probably requiring some serious remodelling.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It's a single lead to/from the WCML as well.
I'm looking forward to gazing out of a stationary 350 on the Manchester curve at Parkside, waiting for a path north (cue cries of "why have we stopped?" and "where are we?")...
It's a pity the Huskisson memorial on the main line is not on this curve.
Currently nobody sees it as trains speed past.
 

Joseph_Locke

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Do we know why the former double track junction was remodelled into a single lead?

This work, carried out in about 1992/3, removed the unreliable pair of double junctions out of the WCML and converted both the slow lines and the Lowtons into single lead junctions (which were all the rage at the time) and a single crossover. It also allowed the through speed on the WCML to be raised slightly.

At the time, both single lead elements only survived by the skin of their teeth, as traffic levels were low and no increase was perceived.
 

Whistler40145

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I couldn't understand why the Manchester Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh was to be re-routed via Eccles except for when Manchester to Preston electrification works take place.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Isn't it slightly faster via Eccles and the WCML? It would also relieve pressure on the very busy Bolton corridor and, if it were to call at Wigan it would allow one of the existing VT services to the North to potentially run through non-stop, which would possibly entail time savings.
 

John55

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I couldn't understand why the Manchester Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh was to be re-routed via Eccles except for when Manchester to Preston electrification works take place.

It is TfGM's wish that the service is diverted permanently via Wigan so more local trains can run via Bolton. I don't think anyone else is too keen on the idea.
 

furryfeet

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Howsabout running the Victoria lines straight through towards Bolton, and the Windsor Link lines towards Wigan (e.g. no junction as such around Crescent) - examination of a map will then reveal that you could to changeover at Agecroft
Is this still feasible ?
I thought that the land of of the "link line" from Agecroft Jn was sold off after it closed in the mid-eighties.
 

snail

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I couldn't understand why the Manchester Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh was to be re-routed via Eccles except for when Manchester to Preston electrification works take place.
Manchester-Preston electrification hadn't been approved when the decision was announced.
 

Whistler40145

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What would assist matters would be to electrify Salford Crescent to Wigan & Bolton to Wigan either as a main electrified route or for diversions.
 
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