Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[InOban]

Nope. Hopefully around mid June

Why is it taking much longer than expected?

 

[superkev]

Why is it taking much longer than expected?

Probably the difficulty of running the troughing around all the various bridges and obstacles.
Presumably it wouldn't be needed if Grayling hadn't pulled the plug on the overhead. The cost of several miles or so of 25kV cable in troughing must be huge.
K

 

[Jozhua]

Probably the difficulty of running the troughing around all the various bridges and obstacles.
Presumably it wouldn't be needed if Grayling hadn't pulled the plug on the overhead. The cost of several miles or so of 25kV cable in troughing must be huge.
K

A good example of how cancelling things doesn't reduce costs to zero. Say you were to cancel Grayling for example, the costs of getting a van to move the shredded hopes and dreams of rail users across the country out of his office and having him forcefully removed from the building by security before he lights a stack of £50 notes destined for NPR on fire would doubtlessly still have a cost.

At least if the overhead does get installed, there is already electrical equipment for it and a lucky member of Network Rail staff can take a several mile long 25kv extension cable for use around the home!

 

[Ken H]

This is Hartshead power station which was at heyrod. Closed 1979

 

[CdBrux]

Probably the difficulty of running the troughing around all the various bridges and obstacles.
Presumably it wouldn't be needed if Grayling hadn't pulled the plug on the overhead. The cost of several miles or so of 25kV cable in troughing must be huge.
K

Presumably someone in NR / DfT made a comparison of the estimates between extension lead and electrification and recommended one was cheaper and quicker than the other. If so that is surely the person to direct your ire at?

 

[edwin_m]

Presumably someone in NR / DfT made a comparison of the estimates between extension lead and electrification and recommended one was cheaper and quicker than the other. If so that is surely the person to direct your ire at?

Although it's interesting that apparently electrification to Market Harborough was apparently cheaper (or perhaps better in cost-benefit terms) than providing an extension lead there. Is electrification always cheaper than extension leads - in which case money has been wasted at Stalybridge? Or are there other factors at work that mean the answer is different between the two places? Perhaps I could call them extenuating circumstances...

 

[Ianno87]

Although it's interesting that apparently electrification to Market Harborough was apparently cheaper (or perhaps better in cost-benefit terms) than providing an extension lead there. Is electrification always cheaper than extension leads - in which case money has been wasted at Stalybridge? Or are there other factors at work that mean the answer is different between the two places? Perhaps I could call them extenuating circumstances...

The 'obvious' difference is that wiring to Stalybridge includes the relatively complex Miles Platting and Stalybridge station areas, plus Stalybridge tunnel.

Market Harborough, however, is relatively straightforward plain double track railway from Kettering North Jn.

 

[superkev]

The 'obvious' difference is that wiring to Stalybridge includes the relatively complex Miles Platting and Stalybridge station areas, plus Stalybridge tunnel.

Market Harborough, however, is relatively straightforward plain double track railway from Kettering North Jn.

But in this cash strapped times a minimalistic scheme like the ECML was done would perhaps have been more appropriate.
Just 2 tracks vic to stalybridge and just the bay at stalybridge.
K

 

[PDG1949]

Plug in extension lead here

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4915725,-2.0458509,625m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartshead_Power_Station

 

[Ianno87]

But in this cash strapped times a minimalistic scheme like the ECML was done would perhaps have been more appropriate.
Just 2 tracks vic to stalybridge and just the bay at stalybridge.
K

Problem is at Stalybridge it would have to at least passively, and potentially actively, provide for extension both towards Guide Bridge/Huddersfield for Transpenning Route Upgrade. Otherwise, a bit of a dent would be put in the TRU business case.

And you need *some* operational resilience built in - only one route each way, and a single platform at Stalybridge, would not provide this.

 

[Elecman]

You could have masted most of the route away from the junctions ( as the design work was presumably completed for the existing route ) and run the feeder in bare Ariel wire(s) and just ground cabled the 2 junction areas ala AT cables at no suitable clearance bridge locations. That would have been cheaper than ground level cables all the way I would have thought, and more secure from the inevitable copper fairies. The masts fitted would not be wasted as they would be in the right locations for when electrification is actually completed.

 

[Whistler40145]

It was an earthing wire that came loose and was shorting things out. Happened at Kirkham as it was reported as being on a mast on the Up Lytham, a line where the wires don't stretch very far.

Is that the short stretch of wiring on the former line used by Blackpool North services which is now used by Blackpool South services?

 

[hwl]

Although it's interesting that apparently electrification to Market Harborough was apparently cheaper (or perhaps better in cost-benefit terms) than providing an extension lead there. Is electrification always cheaper than extension leads - in which case money has been wasted at Stalybridge? Or are there other factors at work that mean the answer is different between the two places? Perhaps I could call them extenuating circumstances...

Not many (extra) bridges to Market Harborough

 

[superkev]

You could have masted most of the route away from the junctions ( as the design work was presumably completed for the existing route ) and run the feeder in bare Ariel wire(s) and just ground cabled the 2 junction areas ala AT cables at no suitable clearance bridge locations. That would have been cheaper than ground level cables all the way I would have thought, and more secure from the inevitable copper fairies. The masts fitted would not be wasted as they would be in the right locations for when electrification is actually completed.

Don't forget consultants contractors etc earn a percentage of what they spend usually around 3-8% and not what they save so no incentive to save money.
K

 

[td97]

Why was it so imperative to install the 'extension lead' immediately following the Manchester-Preston electrification, especially given that the full electric timetable (including TPE) is set to run through Bolton as of next week without it operational?
It seems to me that, apart from operational resilience/contingency, there's little need for it to begin with, based on the present electric services. Is it necessary to be completed before TPE 802s can start*?
They'd have been better getting on with wiring Westhoughton and coming back to do Stalybridge once TPRU is underway.

Is it Murphy's doing the 'extension lead' work out of interest?

*Not on this route but on Victoria <-> Liverpool/Airport.

 

[ic31420]

Was discussed in Allocations/Diagrams section of the forum at
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/bolton-electric-services.178289/#post-3879095
(But only valid until 18th May anyway)

Perfect. Thanks.

Probably the difficulty of running the troughing around all the various bridges and obstacles.
Presumably it wouldn't be needed if Grayling hadn't pulled the plug on the overhead. The cost of several miles or so of 25kV cable in troughing must be huge.
K

I was absolutely amazed to see they've built a bridge alongside another bridge to carry the cable. Must be a couple of hundred k in that alone

 

[deltic08]

But in this cash strapped times a minimalistic scheme like the ECML was done would perhaps have been more appropriate.
Just 2 tracks vic to stalybridge and just the bay at stalybridge.
K

The bay at Stalybridge is going in the new arrangements as it will be in the way of the slewed curve that is being straightened for higher speed off the Miles Platting route.

 

[Mathew S]

Why was it so imperative to install the 'extension lead' immediately following the Manchester-Preston electrification, especially given that the full electric timetable (including TPE) is set to run through Bolton as of next week without it operational?
It seems to me that, apart from operational resilience/contingency, there's little need for it to begin with, based on the present electric services. Is it necessary to be completed before TPE 802s can start*?
They'd have been better getting on with wiring Westhoughton and coming back to do Stalybridge once TPRU is underway.

Is it Murphy's doing the 'extension lead' work out of interest?

*Not on this route but on Victoria <-> Liverpool/Airport.

Having to draw power all the way from Garstang via Chat Moss has to be costing them an awful lot of Amps, not to mention it's not the most resilient arrangement in the world.
I thought the extension lead was needed before full electric service, but maybe that's not the case. I guess we'll see on Sunday/Monday.

 

[edwin_m]

The 'obvious' difference is that wiring to Stalybridge includes the relatively complex Miles Platting and Stalybridge station areas, plus Stalybridge tunnel.

Market Harborough, however, is relatively straightforward plain double track railway from Kettering North Jn.

I think there would still have been a lesser great extension lead from Heyrod to Stalybridge. Electrification from there by both routes would still allow Heyrod to feed if one route was isolated for some reason. So the reckoning would probably have to include electrifying Stalybridge to Guide Bridge as well.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Orangemen were busy inserting a red cable into the new trunking just east of Victoria P6 today.
All the exposed trunking from there up the hill to Miles Platting looked to have plenty of cable installed.
So maybe the extension lead is nearly ready?

 

[Elecman]

The Great Extension Lead is actually 3 cables not 1, and all 3 have to be complete before it can be tested and then the protection relays set up and only then can it be energised.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Great Extension Lead is actually 3 cables not 1, and all 3 have to be complete before it can be tested and then the protection relays set up and only then can it be energised.

2 large diameter black ones and a small red one?
That's what it looked like over the open bits.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The Great Extension Lead is actually 3 cables not 1, and all 3 have to be complete before it can be tested and then the protection relays set up and only then can it be energised.

2 large diameter black ones and a small red one?
That's what it looked like over the open bits.

+25 kV and-25kV and .......? neutral/earth?

 

[themiller]

+25 kV and-25kV and .......? neutral/earth?

Earth cable can only be green and yellow.

 

[superkev]

+25 kV and-25kV and .......? neutral/earth?

Prob HV (25KV or 50KV) live and neutral and a multicore data/ control cable.
K

 

[edwin_m]

Or a three phase cable so different phases can be used on the routes radiating away from Ordsall Lane?

 

[superkev]

Or a three phase cable so different phases can be used on the routes radiating away from Ordsall Lane?

3 phase would have 3 equally sized cables.
K

 

[themiller]

Prob HV (25KV or 50KV) live and neutral and a multicore data/ control cable.
K

A data cable would be segregated from power cables!

 

[superkev]

Could be fibre.
Thinking about it it could be the auto transformer system which uses +25KV and -25KV cables plus one for ground. Not sure about the reported above smaller one Red for ground.
K

 

[notlob.divad]

In almost every case I know an Earth cable would have to be thicker than the supply cables as it is supposed to provide a lower resistance to ground. I am also not sure why you would run an earth cable over that distance given both ends will likely have their own earth mat, and any equipotential bonding would also have to include the cable routing.

My suspicion with no knowledge of the project is that in a modern setup, a thinner 'cable' of a different colour running in the same trunking will be fibre optics for remote monitoring and control.