Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[Jozhua]

Perhaps it should be renamed the Grayling lead
K

No! Then it'll get cancelled!

 

[Bovverboy]

From what I could see around the evening peak it was a full electric service between Euxton and Lostock Junction. The northbound TPE became delayed as it was stuck behind the Man Vic - Preston stopper. I was a little surprised it didn't make use of the new platform at Bolton to overtake.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y00625/2019/05/20/advanced

(BIB) The reason presumably being, it was the Southport train immediately in front of the TPE at Bolton. The TPE didn't catch up the Preston stopper until Blackrod.
All northbound services were running late at the time, it wasn't just the Preston stopper.

 

[Class 170101]

As I understand it STP services are subdivided into "New" and "Overlay" classes, flagged as STP and VAR respectively in RTT. "Overlay" is a minor variation to the schedule of a service in the Working Timetable (WTT), keeping the same headcode and schedule Unique Identification code (UID). "New" can be a service that is additional to the WTT, or a replacement for a service in the WTT.

VAR could also be a 'major' alteration depending on how a train planner alters a train. They use an existing schedule, overlay it and re-route it completely.

 

[Greybeard33]

VAR could also be a 'major' alteration depending on how a train planner alters a train. They use an existing schedule, overlay it and re-route it completely.

Thank you for the correction. I must admit I am at a loss to understand why a minor change is often implemented by cancelling the LTP schedule and replacing it by a new STP schedule that is almost identical. Yet other times a major change is implemented as a VAR overlay on the original schedule, as you say.

Just the whim of the individual planner?

 

[Class 170101]

Thank you for the correction. I must admit I am at a loss to understand why a minor change is often implemented by cancelling the LTP schedule and replacing it by a new STP schedule that is almost identical. Yet other times a major change is implemented as a VAR overlay on the original schedule, as you say.

Just the whim of the individual planner?

Partly yes but from a data handling point of view it could be a train cancelled and then re-instated at a later date can be easier to use a STP new schedule rather than deleting the cancellation and then overlaying the LTP schedule.

 

[td97]

ASDO* testing took place last week with the new stock (Cl.195) for all stations on the line to Preston.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S01593/2019/05/13/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S01595/2019/05/14/advanced
*Automatic Selective Door Operation

 

[t1mj1m]

I spent Friday with a Lancashire day ranger. From what I could see the elecricfication of the line line north of Manchester so far has been a waste of money. Now only 1 electric service per hour from Victoria to Preston as all Blackpool services go via Manchester Piccadilly. No electric service anymore from Victoria to Liverpool and TPE not stopping at Bolton. Hopefully things change in December timetable but as service stands now the money would have been better spent on new diesels. And not had 7 years of misery. I was looking forward to the new electrics but so far a let down.

 

[Geeves]

From 'what you could see' which is entirely wrong, not to mention there was a huge overhead line failure so you would not have seen many electrics as they were all unfortunately stuck. Five trains a day from Vic to Liverpool are class 319s. All the trains from Liverpool to Manchester (Picc) are electric, all the trains from Blackpool N to Manchester are Electric, all the trains from Blackpool N to Liverpool are electric, all the trains from Manchester to Preston are electric. I agree that currently the wires around Vic are somewhat lightly used but they were supposed to actually go somewhere which of course they now/currently don't.

 

[Whistler40145]

What happened in the Euxton Junction area over the weekend with the OHLE?

 

[swt_passenger]

What happened in the Euxton Junction area over the weekend with the OHLE?

Seems to have been a problem with the existing WCML, covered in its own thread here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/euxton-wcml-overhead-wire-problems-24-may-2019.183215/

 

[Ken H]

I spent Friday with a Lancashire day ranger. From what I could see the elecricfication of the line line north of Manchester so far has been a waste of money. Now only 1 electric service per hour from Victoria to Preston as all Blackpool services go via Manchester Piccadilly. No electric service anymore from Victoria to Liverpool and TPE not stopping at Bolton. Hopefully things change in December timetable but as service stands now the money would have been better spent on new diesels. And not had 7 years of misery. I was looking forward to the new electrics but so far a let down.

The Man vic bit seems badly underused. Hopefully when the 769's come along the utilisation will be better.

 

[Bertie the bus]

From 'what you could see' which is entirely wrong, not to mention there was a huge overhead line failure so you would not have seen many electrics as they were all unfortunately stuck. Five trains a day from Vic to Liverpool are class 319s. All the trains from Liverpool to Manchester (Picc) are electric, all the trains from Blackpool N to Manchester are Electric, all the trains from Blackpool N to Liverpool are electric, all the trains from Manchester to Preston are electric. I agree that currently the wires around Vic are somewhat lightly used but they were supposed to actually go somewhere which of course they now/currently don't.

It's still very debateable whether the benefits outweigh the massive disruption over a lot of years. One thing I noticed is some trains between Preston and Manchester have been speeded up considerably. For example, there was an 08:45 departure which arrived at Piccadilly at 09:45. This has been replaced with an 08:55 departure from Preston which has the same arrival time at Piccadilly. Great, you might think, 10 minutes knocked off Preston - Manchester. That is until you notice 6 of those minutes are saved between Preston and Buckshaw Parkway, partly due to the removal of the Leyland stop and partly because it used to have a ridiculous amount of time for that section even for a DMU.

 

[driver_m]

Liverpool itself was massively over-electrified for years. Look how little 1-4 got used/or the slow lines out of Lime St. Much, much later though, it finally got used. So Victoria will be like that for some time until someone not idiotic in government advocates a sensible Electrification policy.

 

[LeylandLen]

I see there is a direct Preston to Edghill 390 ECS working tonight , as opposed to going via Crewe . How long has the direct line been open for 390s ...?http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S61882/2019/05/26/advanced

 

[driver_m]

I see there is a direct Preston to Edghill 390 ECS working tonight , as opposed to going via Crewe . How long has the direct line been open for 390s ...?http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S61882/2019/05/26/advanced

Since it was first electrified. 390s were used to test the capabilities of the OLE. There’s moves on it today too with some more Liverpool-Glasgow services because of the disruption elsewhere.

 

[Whistler40145]

Since it was first electrified. 390s were used to test the capabilities of the OLE. There’s moves on it today too with some more Liverpool-Glasgow services because of the disruption elsewhere.

Quite surprised that these Liverpool to Glasgow services are via St Helens Junction and not St Helens Central

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Man vic bit seems badly underused. Hopefully when the 769's come along the utilisation will be better.

TPE will also be using 802s on electric Liverpool-Manchester Vic (-Newcastle) services by year end. Hopefully.
They should also switch to electric between Vic and Manchester Airport on Newcastle services.
Class 68s under the wires on Scarborough/Middlesbrough services don't help much, however.

 

[bengley]

Quite surprised that these Liverpool to Glasgow services are via St Helens Junction and not St Helens Central

Virgin drivers don't sign St Helens Central

 

[L+Y]

From 'what you could see' which is entirely wrong, not to mention there was a huge overhead line failure so you would not have seen many electrics as they were all unfortunately stuck. Five trains a day from Vic to Liverpool are class 319s. All the trains from Liverpool to Manchester (Picc) are electric, all the trains from Blackpool N to Manchester are Electric, all the trains from Blackpool N to Liverpool are electric, all the trains from Manchester to Preston are electric. I agree that currently the wires around Vic are somewhat lightly used but they were supposed to actually go somewhere which of course they now/currently don't.

Related to this, and with electrification now substantially complete- does anybody have an approximate figure for how many DMUs have been freed up compared to 2012?

I'd be interested to know if they've all been gobbled up by service expansion elsewhere, or been used for strengthening on existing routes, especially in the context of the non-withdrawal of the Pacer fleet with just six months to go.

 

[edwin_m]

TPE will also be using 802s on electric Liverpool-Manchester Vic (-Newcastle) services by year end. Hopefully.
They should also switch to electric between Vic and Manchester Airport on Newcastle services.
Class 68s under the wires on Scarborough/Middlesbrough services don't help much, however.

Unfortunately the eastbound 802s are likely to have their diesels running under the low ceiling during the Victoria stop, ready for the end of the wires a short distance beyond. That distance is probably so short that they will drop the pans and leave Victoria on diesel power, probably at maximum revs to get a run at the gradient. With the engines being more modern and on true idle (no auxiliaries) until the pan is dropped, this may or may not be less bad than Voyagers at New Street.

The 68s have the advantage that the loco is probably in the open during the station stop.

 

[jonesy3001]

Related to this, and with electrification now substantially complete- does anybody have an approximate figure for how many DMUs have been freed up compared to 2012?

I'd be interested to know if they've all been gobbled up by service expansion elsewhere, or been used for strengthening on existing routes, especially in the context of the non-withdrawal of the Pacer fleet with just six months to go.

The DMU fleet has been strengthened on most routes to 4 car workings, also most of the sprinter fleet is away for PRM mods probably explains why the pacers are still in service until the 195s/331s enter service in a couple of months.

 

[Ken H]

The DMU fleet has been strengthened on most routes to 4 car workings, also most of the sprinter fleet is away for PRM mods probably explains why the pacers are still in service until the 195s/331s enter service in a couple of months.

2 car 158 on the 1U96 11:46 Barrow - Manc airport on 20th May. heaving. loads of people with loads of holiday luggage too. Inadequate. Not helped by being 22 late at Lancaster.

 

[driver_m]

Just seen this Virgin 390 Liverpool LS to Glasgow C, running today only ...assume its test service (I know this is a BPN to Manchester thread ...)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S51716/2019/05/27/advanced

No. It’s a short term planned move. Fully staffed with about 3 or 4 running today. Line is blocked before Weaver Jn. So trains that would normally come from Oxley or Wembley are coming off Edge Hill. One of the flexibilities that the OLE has allowed.

 

[driver_m]

Quite surprised that these Liverpool to Glasgow services are via St Helens Junction and not St Helens Central

As @bengley said, we don’t sign that route, via the Junction is our diversion route anyway, and Lime St only sign to Wigan so there’s little reason for us to sign that route.

 

[Bovverboy]

Related to this, and with electrification now substantially complete- does anybody have an approximate figure for how many DMUs have been freed up compared to 2012?

I'd be interested to know if they've all been gobbled up by service expansion elsewhere, or been used for strengthening on existing routes, especially in the context of the non-withdrawal of the Pacer fleet with just six months to go.

The DMU fleet has been strengthened on most routes to 4 car workings

I would have said that very few routes are now served by four-car sets that didn't have them before.

also most of the sprinter fleet is away for PRM mods

Wild exaggeration.

probably explains why the pacers are still in service until the 195s/331s enter service in a couple of months.

Quite a few DMU sets have been soaked up by new services, e. g. Manchester Victoria - Todmorden - Blackburn, Chester - Manchester Victoria (- Leeds).

 

[Grumpy]

The 68s have the advantage that the loco is probably in the open during the station stop.

Possibly. However the other day I noticed in Scarborough that a 68 was parked up inside the trainshed whilst the TP DMU was in the totally open platform 1

 

[Bertie the bus]

I would have said that very few routes are now served by four-car sets that didn't have them before.

In fact I would say some services now have fewer carriages than before the timetable change. From my observation 2-car units on the Calder Valley route, except Blackpool - York services, were quite rare. Some of these "new" Leeds - Chester services are 2-car. These services aren't new at all between Leeds & Man Vic, they are just extensions to/from Chester.

 

[edwin_m]

Possibly. However the other day I noticed in Scarborough that a 68 was parked up inside the trainshed whilst the TP DMU was in the totally open platform 1

Victoria is a bit different as each end of the through platforms is in the open (though only just in the case of the west end).

 

[alangla]

No. It’s a short term planned move. Fully staffed with about 3 or 4 running today. Line is blocked before Weaver Jn. So trains that would normally come from Oxley or Wembley are coming off Edge Hill. One of the flexibilities that the OLE has allowed.

Going this way will leave the 390 the wrong way round, won’t it? (I.e. first class against the stops at Lime Street)

 

[Bovverboy]

Just seen this Virgin 390 Liverpool LS to Glasgow C, running today only ...assume its test service (I know this is a BPN to Manchester thread ...)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S51716/2019/05/27/advanced

No. It’s a short term planned move. Fully staffed with about 3 or 4 running today. Line is blocked before Weaver Jn. So trains that would normally come from Oxley or Wembley are coming off Edge Hill. One of the flexibilities that the OLE has allowed.

I think the pertinent point is that Virgin don't normally operate public services from Liverpool to Glasgow.