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Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

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LNW-GW Joint

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It all depends on paths being available between Golborne Junction & Euxton Junction.

What happened to the plan for a reversible third track between Boar's Head and Balshaw Lane (on the formation of the old Down Slow)?
This would have provided 5 miles of extra capacity for local trains (eg Liverpool-Blackpool) and for freight, off the Fast lines.
It was in the SRA plans for implementation about 2009 (after the doubling of Euxton Jn).
As far as I can see nothing has been done, and it doesn't figure in the Route Plans.
Maybe our resident engineer Mr Locke can tell us.
It would still leave 2 miles of double track north of Wigan.
 
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MidnightFlyer

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Heh, never knew that. It's still double-track only from Wigan NW through Coppull to Balshaw Lane Jn. From a train there's no sign of any work for this being done at all, though it would certainly be useful!
 

Whistler40145

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It might be possible to path Manchester Airport to Edinburgh/Glasgow services via Golborne, but what happens when First West Coast are running the extra trains to Preston, where is the capacity then?
 

MidnightFlyer

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That'd still only equate to 4 passenger trains per hour though (plus say one freight) each way. The double track's only 8 miles long, with back platforms at Wigan NW and Slows at Balshaw Lane Jn to wait on if absolutely necessary. As far as I know, there's little issue with signal spacing along here, plus with 100mph+ running, it should only really be the freight that'll be hanging around, a potentially 100mph EMU on the Blackpool-Liverpool service will be faster than the current 75mph Pacer or similarly quick Sprinter. Currently VT services are booked between 5-8 minutes to cover Wigan-Balshaw Lane (not far off timings given to the Northern service either!), that'll be 18 mins an hour with 3tph under FWC. That in turn leaves some 40+ mins an hour each way to fit in a freight (or more) and a slightly slower passenger train. It's not a massive issue.

(Please note - I'm aware it isn't that easy to break it down to that, however I was trying to prove that it isn't jam packed!)
 

John55

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It might be possible to path Manchester Airport to Edinburgh/Glasgow services via Golborne, but what happens when First West Coast are running the extra trains to Preston, where is the capacity then?

The WCML at Golborne Junction has only 2 or 3 trains per hour north bound and southbound. Extra trains to Preston form Euston bring it up to 3 trains per hour all day. There is therefore at least a 30 minute gap for trains joining or leaving the WCML at Golbourne.

More difficult is the 2 track section north of Wigan which has a few more trains from Liverpool.

A little clever timetabling could have the Manchester - Scotland trains occupying the same "path" on the WCML as the Chester - Manchester DMUs which have to cross over at Warrington/Winwick so it should not be a big deal until the WCML becomes a lot busier than it currently is at Golbourne.

Although the WCML is very busy between London and Rugby it is actually rather quiet between Weaver Junction and Wigan.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Although the WCML is very busy between London and Rugby it is actually rather quiet between Weaver Junction and Wigan.

You'd be surprised (perhaps not!) to know how often an on-time Manchester-Chester gets stuck north of Winwick Jn at Vulcan, waiting for a path to WBQ.
On a bad day there can be a wait for Pendolinos both ways.
On the other hand if you're on the late southbound Pendo you know you'll make the Chester connection!
 

Joseph_Locke

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What happened to the plan for a reversible third track between Boar's Head and Balshaw Lane (on the formation of the old Down Slow)?
This would have provided 5 miles of extra capacity for local trains (eg Liverpool-Blackpool) and for freight, off the Fast lines.
It was in the SRA plans for implementation about 2009 (after the doubling of Euxton Jn).
As far as I can see nothing has been done, and it doesn't figure in the Route Plans.
Maybe our resident engineer Mr Locke can tell us.
It would still leave 2 miles of double track north of Wigan.

Hmmph, having a nap dontchaknow ...

Anyway, the three-tracking scheme was develope at about the same time as the additional line from Springs Branch to Wigan NW, but if I remember correctly the business case didn't work (to gain best benefit required a new Junction at Balshaw Lane Jn.). Sadly, 5 miles isn't enough for a dynamic loop, as "slow" services and "fast" services would pass the Wigan end (Standish) at nearly the same speed.

Only part one of Euxton Doubling was carried out, to whit the installtion of the 60mph turnout off the Up Fast. I hear that the relaying of the two 30mph crossovers as 50mph is going to happen soon, but not the full doubling scheme.
 
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WatcherZero

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Whats the main physical constraint on the speed of junctions and crossovers? The angle they meet?
 

Joseph_Locke

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Whats the main physical constraint on the speed of junctions and crossovers? The angle they meet?

If that's a general question, the answer (most commonly) is the tightest radius / highest cant deficiency, the rate of change of cant deficiency and the distance between consecutive switch and crossing (S&C) units. Other factors can be the curvature of the "main line" and the type of S&C unit.

In the specific case of Euxton it is the curve round to Chorley (cant deficiency)
 

John55

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You'd be surprised (perhaps not!) to know how often an on-time Manchester-Chester gets stuck north of Winwick Jn at Vulcan, waiting for a path to WBQ.
On a bad day there can be a wait for Pendolinos both ways.
On the other hand if you're on the late southbound Pendo you know you'll make the Chester connection!

If you look at the timetable it looks as though there may be a timetabled wait at Winwick for those trains so no I am not surprised!
 

Whistler40145

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I have read in a railway publication that originally a simple electrification was to be implemented on the North Fylde line, but it has now been suggested that major works could now include complete remodelling at Blackpool North, Poulton-le-Fylde, Kirkham & Wesham with a complete blockade Blackpool North to Kirkham & Wesham in January/February 2016? re-signalling & complete closure of all current Signalboxes, transfer control to Manchester, possible increase of line speed East of Kirkham & Wesham from 90mph to 125mph.
 

Bevan Price

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There is a solution - grade separate Golborne, so that the slows cross under the fasts where the junction is now (land take, bridges, etc.), but as you say it doesn't speed up Parkside Jn. onto the Chat Moss and vice versa. What it would do is allow110/125EPS on the WCML, as the junction currently holds it down, which in turn may have quite a healthy business case.

Slightly more left-field would be to re-arrange the line order from Golborne to Wigan NW (as in DF-UF-DS-US and DF-UF-DS-US-DG-UG) but that's an even bigger job, probably requiring some serious remodelling.


If there were sufficient funds (unlikely), would be technically feasible to move the actual junction (points) northwards to somewhere near the old Golborne South station ? The current points would be removed, the DF & UF lines would become Up & Down "Manchester" lines, whilst the current US & DS lines would become "fast" lines as far as a new high speed junction a mile or so north of the present Golborne Junction.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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If there were sufficient funds (unlikely), would be technically feasible to move the actual junction (points) northwards to somewhere near the old Golborne South station ? The current points would be removed, the DF & UF lines would become Up & Down "Manchester" lines, whilst the current US & DS lines would become "fast" lines as far as a new high speed junction a mile or so north of the present Golborne Junction.

I think the problem is that the operators don't really know what they want in the longer term.
Golborne Jn is optimised for the WCML fast lines at the moment, and that is still the route with high expected growth (intermodal freight mainly).
The slow lines are currently overkill for the traffic, and the infrastructure at Springs Branch (6 tracks, underpass etc) is insanely over capacity.
On the other hand if new freight terminals come on line at Port Salford and Parkside, plus expansion at Liverpool, Golborne Jn could be a significant bottleneck.
The passenger need is only going to be 1tph initially (Manchester-Scotland) and possibly 2tph while the Bolton route is electrified.
Then there are the HS2 connections, wherever they might be (we'll soon know).
Maybe the old GC route Glazebrook-Culcheth-Ince will come back to life.
Very difficult to decide what to do in the short term.
And all this because the North Union promoters in the 1830s couldn't see 180 years ahead!
 

Whistler40145

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It's a pity that a junction couldn't be built where the Liverpool to Manchester line crosses the WCML, although this is in a cutting, this could be rebuilt with a flyover.
 

John55

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It's a pity that a junction couldn't be built where the Liverpool to Manchester line crosses the WCML, although this is in a cutting, this could be rebuilt with a flyover.

I suggest you look at the map and think about how much space is needed for the connecting lines. I think you may find the current junction set up is as close to the cross over point as you might want. The angle between the WCML and Manchester bound Chat Moss lines is only 45 degrees so it's all rather constricted.

Any flyover would require rather a lot of houses to be demolished. I don't see you being very popular in Newton le Willows! The M6 gets in the way nowadays as well.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I have been following this debate with not a little interest, as I do not have the knowledge of technical and engineering infrastructural expertise of some of our learned forum members, but wonder if the land availability in the region of Parkside Junction, coupled to the use that the said land is currently used, would there not be enough of this to purchase to enable a sufficient length in the Manchester-bound direction to enable a modern and fast new connection linkage between the Manchester and Liverpool line and the West Coast Main Line.

I have been reading of the Crosssrail project in our capital city and of infrastructural works that will need to be enacted as part of that project, so surely it is not outside the realms of reason and technical expertise prevailing that the Parkside Junction matter cannot be fully addressed in a manner befitting of the 21st century, considering the projected use of this junction as a major part of a North West project to recast services that will use a major new routing as part of the Northern Hub rail improvements.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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What are your views on what can be done at Parkside Junction?

My posting above reflected that I bow the greater technical and infrastructural knowledge of those on the forum and which is way outside my understanding of such matters, so the nearest that I can come to answering your question is to quote the words of Francis Urquhart in "House of Cards", a political drama series of past days....

"You may very well think that, but I cannot possibly comment"
 

John55

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I have been following this debate with not a little interest, as I do not have the knowledge of technical and engineering infrastructural expertise of some of our learned forum members, but wonder if the land availability in the region of Parkside Junction, coupled to the use that the said land is currently used, would there not be enough of this to purchase to enable a sufficient length in the Manchester-bound direction to enable a modern and fast new connection linkage between the Manchester and Liverpool line and the West Coast Main Line.

I have been reading of the Crosssrail project in our capital city and of infrastructural works that will need to be enacted as part of that project, so surely it is not outside the realms of reason and technical expertise prevailing that the Parkside Junction matter cannot be fully addressed in a manner befitting of the 21st century, considering the projected use of this junction as a major part of a North West project to recast services that will use a major new routing as part of the Northern Hub rail improvements.

Before thinking about the cost and practicality of mass rebuilding of the Parkside/Golborne area there should be some thought into why would you want to do this? At the moment there are effectively no train services over these lines. There are 2 trains each weekday from Wigan NW to Newton le Willows and Liverpool (but none back) and I think 1 train each day from Manchester Airport to Wigan NW (and none back). These trains only run to keep the drivers up to date with route knowledge and possibly avoid closure procedures. I don't think here is any freight but if there is it is very infrequent (1 per day sort of thing).

The route was used a year or so ago for an hourly shuttle Man Vic to Wigan NW when Wigan Wallgate was having a major track replacement exercise but essentially that is all it is used for - occasional engineering diversions. The route from Liverpool to Wigan via the other side of the triangle is used slightly more often but outside electrification works once or twice per year would be about it.

In 2013 - 6 the Manchester - Scotland service will run this way but may then go back to running via Bolton. There seems not to be much clarity yet but I wouldn't be surprised if the trains go via Bolton in the longterm. There seems little likelihood of any other Manchester - Wigan service via this route as there are only Eccles and Patricroft as intermediate stations and some of the existing services miss out Patricroft anyway. In the long term I suppose some Manchester - Preston and beyond trains may go this way to avoid congestion but I cannot see it being that many.

So as I see it rebuilding the junctions at Parkside and Golborne would be a very expensive exercise with potentially no benefit at all by the time it was done. I can see there being some interest in removing the current connection on the WCML and replacing it with something better but only when the junction needs renewal as the S&C on the curve is not something the track engineers like.

On the other hand Crossrail is providing up to 24 trains per hour through the middle of London relieving pressure on the most overcrowded tube line on the network and releasing significant capacity on the very busy lines into Liverpool St and London Bridge. While it has an iffy BCR it will be used by many millions of passengers per year which sadly Parkside to Golborne will not be.
 

WatcherZero

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The last RUS suggested there was demand for 2tph between Manchester and Wigan via Eccles, your saving 20 minutes on a 50 minute journey or a 40% time saving. Even as far as Preston theres no net time saving from the more congested direct tracks via Bolton. The RUS predicted the route could be done in 35 minutes but the work done for the electrification itself under construction suggests 29 minutes is possible with the Chat Moss speed upgrades.
 

John55

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The last RUS suggested there was demand for 2tph between Manchester and Wigan via Eccles, your saving 20 minutes on a 50 minute journey or a 40% time saving. Even as far as Preston theres no net time saving from the more congested direct tracks via Bolton. The RUS predicted the route could be done in 35 minutes but the work done for the electrification itself under construction suggests 29 minutes is possible with the Chat Moss speed upgrades.

I did look at the summary recommendations for the North West, Northern, Lancashire & Cumbria and WCML RUSs a while ago and saw no mention of this service however I could easily have missed it amongst all the other stuff in there. Could you point me in the right direction so I can try and catch up on it. Given the Northern Hub go ahead etc I am not sure how many of these RUSs are still meaningful the older ones are now 6+ years old now.

My thought that trains for longer distances could go via Wigan was based on clearing them off the Bolton route rather than speed and then only in the peaks. I think this is close to the current TfGM thinking as they would like more trains which stop at more stations on the Bolton route.

A quick look at the timetable shows Manchester Vic/Picc to Wigan via Atherton/Bolton takes 36-41 minutes depending on stopping pattern so perhaps not quite the time saving you suggest. Will the Atherton line resignalling allow better services via that route when it is complete?

Until the Ordsall Curve and associated works are better understood I would be quite cautious about routing Manchester - Wigan trains via Chat Moss as I am not sure how many trains can be timetabled though Ordsall Lane Junction. I think sorting out how services will run through that junction will determine more about the services north and west of Manchester than anything else in the next 10 years.
 

GRALISTAIR

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OK only a wish, but in conjunction with this scheme, if the curves etc could be reinstated at Ormskirk and Preston-Ormskirk and Kirkham -B'pool South etc all be electrified 25kV AC, and all the fill-ins around at 25kV AC, run dual volatge units and progressively over 30 years replace all the Liverpool-Southport area with 25kV AC, then I would be in Nirvana. Progressively introduce all units with AC only and transfer the duals to the Southern region for a similar scheme. The journey possibilities opened would be wonderful.
 

John55

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OK only a wish, but in conjunction with this scheme, if the curves etc could be reinstated at Ormskirk and Preston-Ormskirk and Kirkham -B'pool South etc all be electrified 25kV AC, and all the fill-ins around at 25kV AC, run dual volatge units and progressively over 30 years replace all the Liverpool-Southport area with 25kV AC, then I would be in Nirvana. Progressively introduce all units with AC only and transfer the duals to the Southern region for a similar scheme. The journey possibilities opened would be wonderful.

Except I don't think 25kV fits through the newer tunnels in Liverpool & Birkenhead. So there might be an unfortunate walk from Sandhills to Brunswick or Lime St to Conway Park.
 

WatcherZero

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I did look at the summary recommendations for the North West, Northern, Lancashire & Cumbria and WCML RUSs a while ago and saw no mention of this service however I could easily have missed it amongst all the other stuff in there. Could you point me in the right direction so I can try and catch up on it. Given the Northern Hub go ahead etc I am not sure how many of these RUSs are still meaningful the older ones are now 6+ years old now.

My thought that trains for longer distances could go via Wigan was based on clearing them off the Bolton route rather than speed and then only in the peaks. I think this is close to the current TfGM thinking as they would like more trains which stop at more stations on the Bolton route.

A quick look at the timetable shows Manchester Vic/Picc to Wigan via Atherton/Bolton takes 36-41 minutes depending on stopping pattern so perhaps not quite the time saving you suggest. Will the Atherton line resignalling allow better services via that route when it is complete?

Until the Ordsall Curve and associated works are better understood I would be quite cautious about routing Manchester - Wigan trains via Chat Moss as I am not sure how many trains can be timetabled though Ordsall Lane Junction. I think sorting out how services will run through that junction will determine more about the services north and west of Manchester than anything else in the next 10 years.

Limited stop via Atherton to Victoria if not trailing anything in 38m stopper in about 50m, of course Piccadilly itself is further away and more useful for connections/airport currently takes 39-41 only stopping at Bolton and Manchester stations so doing that in 29m is a 12 minute or 25% time saving. Problem is the timetable doesnt reflect most trains get stuck outside victoria waiting for a platform and are rarely on time between the last two stations.
 

John55

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Limited stop via Atherton to Victoria if not trailing anything in 38m stopper in about 50m, of course Piccadilly itself is further away and more useful for connections/airport currently takes 39-41 only stopping at Bolton and Manchester stations so doing that in 29m is a 12 minute or 25% time saving. Problem is the timetable doesnt reflect most trains get stuck outside victoria waiting for a platform and are rarely on time between the last two stations.

Looking at the peak service I note the 17:06 from Vic get to Wallgate in 33 minutes and the 17:40 in 32 minutes both with 4 stops so it seems an eqivalent fast journey is possible via Atherton.
 

Bevan Price

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I have been following this debate with not a little interest, as I do not have the knowledge of technical and engineering infrastructural expertise of some of our learned forum members, but wonder if the land availability in the region of Parkside Junction, coupled to the use that the said land is currently used, would there not be enough of this to purchase to enable a sufficient length in the Manchester-bound direction to enable a modern and fast new connection linkage between the Manchester and Liverpool line and the West Coast Main Line.

.

In theory, yes - but the cost would be horrendous. To have a decent fast line, you would probably need a junction just south of the A580 overbridge, and then build a completely new, gently curved, alighment for 2-3 miles, joining the Liverpool - Manchester line somewhere to the west of the former Kenyon Junction. Although the area is mostly farmland with gaps between houses, you would need new bridges or tunnels to cross the A574 and maybe one or two other roads. Plus, as the L&M is in a cutting, substantial earthworks would be needed to make a new junction.
 

WatcherZero

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Looking at the peak service I note the 17:06 from Vic get to Wallgate in 33 minutes and the 17:40 in 32 minutes both with 4 stops so it seems an eqivalent fast journey is possible via Atherton.

Only when theres no service in front of it. The stopper reaches Wigan before the Express has completed half the journey. The stopper that sets off from Victoria only 4 minutes after the Express, is only 3 minutes behind by Salford but then its well behind after that. Its quite similar to how the TPE service can rocket along the Bolton line but only because theres no stoppers scheduled in front of it.

Manchester Victoria 17:06
Salford Central 17:09 17:09
Salford Crescent 17:13 17:14
Atherton (Manchester) 17:26 17:27
Daisy Hill 17:30 17:31
Wigan Wallgate 17:39

Manchester Victoria 17:10
Salford Central 17:12 17:12
Salford Crescent 17:16 17:17
Swinton 17:23 17:23
Moorside 17:26 17:26
Atherton (Manchester) 17:36 17:37
*stations ommitted*
Daisy Hill 17:42 17:43
Wigan Wallgate 17:51
 
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