Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[adsteamfan]

Their performance isn't great compared to some EMUs but it's also not bad.

The reason for seemingly slow speeds under Northern is because of the completely ridiculous policy imposed on drivers by the company, insisting they only notch power up to notch 4 at about 45mph. Completely nuts - they managed for 30 years at Thameslink being driven properly.

My lad notches up to 4 at around 20mph (depending on conditions) and despite his best attempts he has only achieved 100mph on the downhill sections between Man Picc and Crewe on about 3 occasions. Given that the North has a lot more rain than 'down south' the amount of wheelslip frequently makes for slower running. 323s on the other hand, are flying machines and he enjoys leaving Pendos behind.

 

[ic31420]

What are the downsides to 323s? Everyone seems to love them!

 

[Bamford]

What are the downsides to 323s? Everyone seems to love them!

They've got slightly lower capacity.

But they are brilliant

 

[YorkshireBear]

What are the downsides to 323s? Everyone seems to love them!

There wasnt 100s going spare!

 

[ic31420]

What's reliability ! Maintainability like?

 

[Wtloild]

Think people need to get out on the Bolton line an experience the 319s for themselves. Those speaking of sluggish driving or slow traction, well not that I've experienced, we absolutely flew down there!

I rode on a 319 from Chorley to Preston & back at weekend & was struck by how un-EMU-like (slow) the acceleration was away from stations.
Other than being quieter, it seemed no different to a 150.

 

[Bertie the bus]

What are the downsides to 323s? Everyone seems to love them!

Wrong question. The question is what are the upsides. Basically there appear to be 2:

1. They make an interesting whirring sound when they set off which fascinates some enthusiasts.
2. They are slightly quicker than 319s which on most routes is of no relevance whatsoever.

Other than that they are just a bog standard outer suburban EMU with a lower seating capacity than a 319.

 

[LOL The Irony]

They are slightly quicker than 319s

Well they held a UK speed record for the fastest 0-60 time (Beaten by a 350), so I wouldn't say they are "slightly" faster.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I don’t care. We’re not talking about entering them in a drag race. Knocking maybe 2 minutes off Blackpool – Manchester is of no importance. Nobody would notice and it wouldn’t either free up additional paths or permit better utilisation of units.

 

[Elecman]

I don’t care. We’re not talking about entering them in a drag race. Knocking maybe 2 minutes off Blackpool – Manchester is of no importance. Nobody would notice and it wouldn’t either free up additional paths or permit better utilisation of units.

But would allow Peak 6 car working on Blackpool/ Preston to Manchester trains as the platforms aren’t long enough for 8 car 319’s. Thus maximising number of passengers able to be moved without needing any extra ‘hens teeth’ paths

 

[Bertie the bus]

Being theoretically possible doesn't mean it will happen. Other than speculation on enthusiast forums I have seen absolutely nothing to suggest that would happen. There has been suggestions there would be a 1 for 1 replacement of 319s with 323s but nothing from any credible source to suggest Northern intend to increase the number of EMUs they lease.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is it better to have a 4-car unit all day, or a 3-car unit which can (might) be doubled up to 6-car for a peak working?
There is no real tradition of doubled up EMUs in the north. Many peak 323 trains are still 3-car.
I would say there is more utility in the all-day 4-car than the 3-car with the odd double up.
There's also the cost involved in joining/dividing units for a couple of workings, and keeping the spare EMU idle for most of the day.
We'll have to see how Northern use their 3-car 331s.

TPE has gone for all-5-car units with no doubling up for their new trains - much more sensible.

 

[jfollows]

There is no real tradition of doubled up EMUs in the north. Many peak 323 trains are still 3-car.

They (Northern) never had enough 323s to run the full service, let alone with double units. It's only recently that we've been spared morning DMUs on the Alderley Edge (and Macclesfield) services (thanks to the hand-me-downs from London).
They were also happy to remove one of the four coaches from the AM4s a number of years ago (admittedly on 001 to 015 it was the compartment coach).

 

[Ianno87]

They (Northern) never had enough 323s to run the full service, let alone with double units. It's only recently that we've been spared morning DMUs on the Alderley Edge (and Macclesfield) services (thanks to the hand-me-downs from London).
They were also happy to remove one of the four coaches from the AM4s a number of years ago (admittedly on 001 to 015 it was the compartment coach).

Only time I've ever seen 2 x 323 in service in the North West was for an MUFC service. And that was *many* years ago (possobly before they were introduced on the Glossop line in 1997, so had more spare)

 

[DJH1971]

Only time I've ever seen 2 x 323 in service in the North West was for an MUFC service. And that was *many* years ago (possobly before they were introduced on the Glossop line in 1997, so had more spare)

323's in pair I believe seem to be rather more common with West Midlands

 

[Eccles1983]

Wrong question. The question is what are the upsides. Basically there appear to be 2:

1. They make an interesting whirring sound when they set off which fascinates some enthusiasts.
2. They are slightly quicker than 319s which on most routes is of no relevance whatsoever.

Other than that they are just a bog standard outer suburban EMU with a lower seating capacity than a 319.

They are much quicker off the go,meaning on stop start lines they considerably out perform 319's.

They also brake very very well. Unlike 319's that love to slide.

 

[bengley]

I rode on a 319 from Chorley to Preston & back at weekend & was struck by how un-EMU-like (slow) the acceleration was away from stations.
Other than being quieter, it seemed no different to a 150.

That will be because of the driver notching up slowly. They aren't that slow. Watch videos on YouTube of them from their TL days and you'll see they're not as slow as they are up north.

 

[Ken H]

That will be because of the driver notching up slowly. They aren't that slow. Watch videos on YouTube of them from their TL days and you'll see they're not as slow as they are up north.

is the fact that the railways in the north have steeper gradients an issue? Damn physics spoiling things again!

 

[bengley]

is the fact that the railways in the north have steeper gradients an issue? Damn physics spoiling things again!

The railways have plenty of gradients down south - in fact one of the steepest in the country is on Thameslink.

Speak to any Northern driver who signs 319s and they'll tell you they have been instructed to drive them slowly from a stand.

 

[Ianno87]

is the fact that the railways in the north have steeper gradients an issue? Damn physics spoiling things again!

Bolton-Preston isn't very steeply graded anywhere.

 

[WatcherZero]

They had a lot of wheel slip issues with the 319's in the North early on so yes they are being driven more conservatively.

 

[Eccles1983]

The small matter of traction motors being blown when they first came up here is also another reason why noticing progressively is prefered.

They are sheds on wheels, and the general reliability is down to them being treated like a petulant child. Driven aggressively means you are going to be waiting around for recovery shortly afterwards.

 

[Bald Rick]

Only time I've ever seen 2 x 323 in service in the North West was for an MUFC service. And that was *many* years ago (possobly before they were introduced on the Glossop line in 1997, so had more spare)

Didn’t know they were gauge cleared to Surrey And traction might have been an issue !

 

[Ken H]

Didn’t know they were gauge cleared to Surrey And traction might have been an issue !

snigger

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Only time I've ever seen 2 x 323 in service in the North West was for an MUFC service. And that was *many* years ago (possobly before they were introduced on the Glossop line in 1997, so had more spare)

In which case why do people bang on about a 3-car 323 being better than a 4-car 319 when neither are ever doubled up?
And nor, I suspect, will 331s.

 

[Muenchener]

is the fact that the railways in the north have steeper gradients an issue? Damn physics spoiling things again!

Surely more a case of EMUs currently working a DMU timed timetable?

 

[Chester1]

In which case why do people bang on about a 3-car 323 being better than a 4-car 319 when neither are ever doubled up?
And nor, I suspect, will 331s.

The plan for doubling up 331s was for West Yorkshire services in the peaks, with them being run as single units off peak. It seems that Northern have come to the conclusion that it would be overkill. By switching 4 coach 331s to Yorkshire they would free up double the number of 3 coach 331s for the North West. If that is the new plan then it is not clear how they will be used.

There is demand for 6 coach EMUs through Bolton but the service would need to be carefully chosen. It would be cheap to extend the platforms on the Bolton line to 6 coach length but Salford Central would be very expensive. A single 319 or 323 would be adequate for them. The simplest solution would be to double up the Northern Connect service to Blackpool. If the 4 coach 331s go to the North West then the other Piccadilly-Bolton service would be the next best option (using double 323s). With short platforms at Salford Central and terminating at the less desirable station, I can't see any Bolton-Victoria services being run by 6 coach sets.

6 coach EMUs are probably inevitable for the Piccadilly-Bolton services within the next 10 years because the Castlefield capacity shortage will limit services to 2tph (excluding pick up / set down TPE services). Its easy to forget that a 323 has more seats than a double pacer and only 10% fewer than a 319. Both could be used too e.g. 319s for Victoria and 323s for Piccadilly services.

Edited - Salford Central not Crescent

 

[Ianno87]

Surely more a case of EMUs currently working a DMU timed timetable?

Possibly the drivers aren't hmering it deliberately...as there's no point. Particularly while still familiarising with driving them on this route (e.g working out new braking points)

 

[KevinTurvey]

I haven't had the chance to ride on an electric train on this route yet, but since the Chat Moss route went electric 4 years ago, I have found the performance (or style in which they may be driven) of the 319's is so completely random, like between hares and tortoises.

 

[42626]

Is the instruction not to hammer the 319s across Northern or just Manchester-Preston? Could it be because the great extension lead isn't installed yet?