Blackpool north issues 15th August

leedslad82

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11 Oct 2011
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Major issues at blackpool today. We were on the 11.17 this morning heading to new pudsey after a stag do last night.
We spent an hour at Blackpool on train. Were told a train had broken down at kirkham. Originally we were told it was been dragged back to Blackpool north so we had to wait for line to be cleared. Then at 12.15 we were told our train was cancelled as they couldn't move the other train as its brakes were seized. We got put onto a bus to preston. And ended up on the 13.42 to york from there. However this was 20 late and then was diverted via dewsbury so didn't stop at halifax. Bradford or new pudsey.

So we then had to double back from leeds. So it ended up a 5 hour journey.

My query is how often do train brakes seize? I suspect it was on the train i posted image from. These are newer units so surely this shouldn't happen
 

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Dieseldriver

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9 Apr 2012
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Major issues at blackpool today. We were on the 11.17 this morning heading to new pudsey after a stag do last night.
We spent an hour at Blackpool on train. Were told a train had broken down at kirkham. Originally we were told it was been dragged back to Blackpool north so we had to wait for line to be cleared. Then at 12.15 we were told our train was cancelled as they couldn't move the other train as its brakes were seized. We got put onto a bus to preston. And ended up on the 13.42 to york from there. However this was 20 late and then was diverted via dewsbury so didn't stop at halifax. Bradford or new pudsey.

So we then had to double back from leeds. So it ended up a 5 hour journey.

My query is how often do train brakes seize? I suspect it was on the train i posted image from. These are newer units so surely this shouldn't happen
Generally on a passenger unit ‘brakes seizing’ would suggest an electrical/control/door fault that prevented the brakes being released. The braking systems are failsafe so any fault will prevent the Driver from releasing the brakes.
Brakes can ‘drag’ on any train but generally that would be an issue locally on one vehicle and normally can be rectified by isolating the brakes on that vehicle.
 

Peter Mugridge

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The problem train was 331 017 + 331 019 on the 11.00 Blackpool North to Manchester Oxford Road.

Rather interestingly there was a similar incident at Manchester Piccadilly on Friday morning with 331 015 + 331 030 on the 07.30 to Blackpool North.
 

Geeves

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I believe there are some things that the drivers do not have access to in the train management system with everything being computerized, then requires a member of the depot staff to come out to attend to it. There are no MCBs to trip on these bad boys Obviously that all adds to even more delay.
 

Llama

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Oh there are MCBs, hundreds of them, but there is zero emphasis for drivers what MCB does what, how to get around the effects of them tripping and the training course on the 195/331 units barely even mentions them - unlike Sprinters where we are taught the effects and remedy/workaround for all MCBs.
Plus with the cheap & odd way the systems on the CAF units interact I'd rather not get involved - I once naïvely tripped a PIS MCB to try to reset a PIS that wouldn't work on a 331 and realised what a can of worms I'd opened when it caused battery charger faults amongst others to appear on the TCMS.
 

Geeves

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I knew there was something drivers were suddenly banned from touching Llama, I thought it was all the locked up parts of the TMS, sounds even worse than I imagined
 

skyhigh

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Plus with the cheap & odd way the systems on the CAF units interact I'd rather not get involved - I once naïvely tripped a PIS MCB to try to reset a PIS that wouldn't work on a 331 and realised what a can of worms I'd opened when it caused battery charger faults amongst others to appear on the TCMS.
The Automatic Selective Door Opening (ASDO) computer also controls the hot axle box detection system - trip the ASDO in an attempt to reset it when it's locked up and the fire alarm will start sounding and won't cancel...
 

Efini92

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The ASDO computer also controls the hot axle box detection system - trip the ASDO in an attempt to reset it when it's locked up and the fire alarm will start sounding and won't cancel...
Is that on all units? I can’t say I ever saw that fault.

It also highlights how poor the remodelling was at kirkham, at least under the old layout a broken down train wouldn’t stop the job.
 

Llama

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Tripping the Asdo shouldn't make the fire alarm sound but will mess up the hot axle box detection until the Asdo boots back up.

That's also why you get hot axle box detector faults when you attach on 195s, as the Asdo tries to come to terms with the train formation being altered.
 

Bald Rick

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It also highlights how poor the remodelling was at kirkham, at least under the old layout a broken down train wouldn’t stop the job.

What ? The new layout is much, much better than the old one. Delays by any cause there have reduced significantly.
 

Starmill

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The new layout is faster for trains that aren't calling at Kirkham & Wesham, the signalling is less restrictive, the platforms are longer and safer, the South Fylde trains can cross west of the station and have the use of different platforms to call at in each direction, and the station now has step free access. If that's not a significant improvement I'm not sure what would have been.
 

skyhigh

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Tripping the Asdo shouldn't make the fire alarm sound but will mess up the hot axle box detection until the Asdo boots back up.
Interesting, the fire alarm definitely sounded in both cabs of the 195 I was on until a full reboot, so I assumed that was normal, but this is CAF...
 

Efini92

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And how did BR intend it, and why didn’t ‘they’ do something about it?
Two island platforms with fast and slow lines.
In my opinion the remodelling was done on the cheap. Electric trains not being able to use platform 1 and continue towards Blackpool. If a train fails in the down fylde platform nothing can go towards poulton or fylde. If a train fails in the up fylde platform nothing can get to Preston.
 

Bald Rick

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If a train fails in the down fylde platform nothing can go towards poulton or fylde. If a train fails in the up fylde platform nothing can get to Preston.

Since the remodelling - how many trains have failed at Kirkham?
 

Dr Hoo

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How so? Northern’s services haven’t changed
Your justification for a 'twin island' layout at Kirkham & Wesham was predicated on it being useful when Class 331s were supposedly failing in the platforms on roughly alternate days. (Any chance of a link or sketch for the BR proposal, by the way, I can hardly imagine Regional Railways having the cash.)

Obviously if the Class 331s had been 'sent back to Spain' they wouldn't have been failing. Northern's services would have been substantially different - presumably drastically reduced because of an extreme rolling stock shortage. If they had somehow been maintained the alternative units wouldn't have been failing as much.
 

Jamesrob637

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The problem train was 331 017 + 331 019 on the 11.00 Blackpool North to Manchester Oxford Road.

Rather interestingly there was a similar incident at Manchester Piccadilly on Friday morning with 331 015 + 331 030 on the 07.30 to Blackpool North.

The latter nearly made me late for work due to the backlog and I actually caught that very same train 24 hours later (fault-free thank God!)
 

Class320

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Bin the 331s and replace them with the 365s that seem to be lying around not doing very much and when the time comes, replace the 365s with rolling stock from a manufacuter that is actually capable of building trains that aren't fragile.
 

JohnB27

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As someone who lived in Kirkham for many years I can confirm the layout used to be 4-track. If you look at pictures of the old formation you can even see the space between the up and down fasts where the fast line island platform was planned but never built. (I don't know if they were known as fast/slow or just avoiding lines)
However I don't think this had anything to do with BR as I'm pretty sure the formation dates back a long time before nationalisation. I don't really remember BR doing much in the way of improvement - we still had mechanical boxes and semaphore signals right up to the recent remodelling, and ISTR in the latter years the line speed on the avoiding lines was actually slower than the ones through the platforms presumably due to lack of maintenance.
I visited the new station last year and I agree its an improvement in so many ways, but it does sound like spending a bit more could have yielded greater operational flexibility in the long term.
 

Greetlander

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I just did a Google earth trip alongside the Central - Kirkham alignment. Are there still tracks in the undergrowth right at the Kirkham end?
 

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LOL The Irony

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@323235 reported that a 331 he was aboard on Wednesday lost all traction and most of its power leaving Levenshulme and they coasted towards Slade Ln before whatever was broken managed to be fixed and they continued. Not instilling much confidence for my trip to Blackpool at the start of October :lol:. How does it go, Cheap As F-?
Obviously if the Class 331s had been 'sent back to Spain' they wouldn't have been failing.
Indeed. I suppose you could always do the one in one out approach to Spain or Newport for serious warranty and rectification work. Something along the lines of 'your trains are unfit for service and if we were in a position to do so, would withdraw all of your trains this instant. Now fix them or we'll see you in court'. Could act as an excuse to line the seats up with each other at least.
 

_toommm_

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@323235 reported that a 331 he was aboard on Wednesday lost all traction and most of its power leaving Levenshulme and they coasted towards Slade Ln before whatever was broken managed to be fixed and they continued. Not instilling much confidence for my trip to Blackpool at the start of October :lol:. How does it go, Cheap As F-

Isn’t there a neutral section at Slade Lane Jn.? That might explain the ‘loss’ of power, which would be even more noticeable if you’re in the PTS because of the very loud VCBs opening and closing.
 

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