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Blackpool Trams Extension to North station

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pieguyrob

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That was supposed to happen, only Houndshill changed hands, so they were waiting for that to go through. Which now means they don't have a new store to move into.
 
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Edders23

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The trams are the least of their worries, they don't run through the night. However,

The Queen Street boundary of the property has a nightclub, "Kaos", which is open until 0500 every day.

The Dickson Road boundary, has a taxi stand, and I know that if it is cold the cabs keep their engines running through the night. I am one of them.

Weekends and Monday nights they will undoubtedly have to endure police and ambulance sirens, dealing with the unrest from the nightclub.​


Doesn't it state in your hackney rules that engines must be switched off when on the rank it does in ours
 

Clip

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The building was probably in need of redevelopment at some point soon anyway.

Perhaps Wilko's should've been more on the ball and got new premises ready to move straight into.

The car park side of Wilkos has always been grim with junkies and hookers and people having a good time plying their trade even on hte car park ramp so it was due to be done but that fault lies half with the council and half with themselves for not using the old argos opposite coral island until something was built for them.
 

seasidersfan

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Very anti-tram on here! Blame Network Rail for the fact that the tram won't go up to the station, the initial plan was for a new station building with trams right outside. This is the next best option with the terminus via a short underpass.

As for this being a 'short spur not worth the time and money' well try planning a tram service that doesn't have a railway interchange somewhere, you'd get laughed off. The fact that the Blackpool Tramway has been successful without this so far is impressive, this will increase that significantly. I hope that trams along the South Fylde Line is next- that line is almost useless as it stands and trams to Lytham/Kirkham would solve a lot of problems.
 

Clip

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Very anti-tram on here! Blame Network Rail for the fact that the tram won't go up to the station, the initial plan was for a new station building with trams right outside. This is the next best option with the terminus via a short underpass.

As for this being a 'short spur not worth the time and money' well try planning a tram service that doesn't have a railway interchange somewhere, you'd get laughed off. The fact that the Blackpool Tramway has been successful without this so far is impressive, this will increase that significantly. I hope that trams along the South Fylde Line is next- that line is almost useless as it stands and trams to Lytham/Kirkham would solve a lot of problems.


People are not anti tram they are grumpy against blackpool council who have been completely useless during this whole process which has left a half finished spur to nowhere due to the council and the council only.
 

Mojo

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Doesn't it state in your hackney rules that engines must be switched off when on the rank it does in ours
It’s not permitted to idle the engine on motor vehicles on a public road in any case.
 

WatcherZero

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Blackpool and the Fylde authorities are bidding to government for £2m to support development work on their next extension idea, a full loop line for the Fylde.

They are proposing to takeover the Blackpool South line, the disused Fleetwood Branch line and operate trams on the recently electrified NR rails between Poulton and Kirkham alongside the hourly Blackpool North train.

https://wyre.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s8161/Agenda Item 5.pdf
 

Bald Rick

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Trying to post a picture showing the current situation - it’s hilarious. Unfortunately for some reason the forum software won’t let me attach a picture!
 

swanhill41

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The building was I believe built back in 1970's as a Fire Fare supermarket with car park on top...This was where the old Blackpool North station stood which was removed when the station was downsized to what was the excursion platforms...Frankly the store size was far too large for Wilko ,to the extent that it could operate in 50% of the area it uses...It is also in the wrong location and frankly the area around the location is to put it simply down market and away from what footfall there is from a shopping point of view..
Also just mention that the old Fleetwood line is under poss consideration for a tram system that will provide a circular coverage of the Fylde...A separate listing on preserved line forum maybe appropriate ...May just do that?
 
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Nice picture, thank you. Makes me smile every time I pass it!

Very anti-tram on here! Blame Network Rail for the fact that the tram won't go up to the station, the initial plan was for a new station building with trams right outside. This is the next best option with the terminus via a short underpass.

As for this being a 'short spur not worth the time and money' well try planning a tram service that doesn't have a railway interchange somewhere, you'd get laughed off. The fact that the Blackpool Tramway has been successful without this so far is impressive, this will increase that significantly. I hope that trams along the South Fylde Line is next- that line is almost useless as it stands and trams to Lytham/Kirkham would solve a lot of problems.
The South Fylde line is far from useless. (Except present timetable/ Arriva North - Northern rail /DFT/ failings which hopefully will be sorted soon!)
Converting it to a tramway would be a retrograde step - only needs a dynamic passing loop between Lytham and St Annes. Fast rail service direct to Preston is far better. Maybe extend to Central station if cash available!!
An alternative route to bypass the Tower section, when concerts. 'switch on' etc closes the tramway is essential.
The Poulton to Fleetwood tram conversion sounds like it could be a good idea.

Blackpool Gazette has a story on the Fylde Tram Loop study costing £2m. https://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/...37632648543_2644358502346456_2644358502346456
''The Fylde coast's three local authorities are being urged to support ambitious plans for a tram loop by joining forces to create a £2m development fund.
It is proposed Blackpool, Fylde and Wyre councils each include a bid for cash towards the scheme as part of their submissions to the government for a share of the Future High Street Fund.
It is estimated a comprehensive business case study would cost around £2m, which would be split equally between the councils.
This would be used to recommend how the scheme could be implemented if funding became available in the future.
The loop proposes to use the mothballed rail track between Fleetwood and Poulton for trams, while the Kirkham to Blackpool South line would be converted from trains to trams. The line would then connect to the existing Blackpool to Fleetwood tramway.
It already has the support of Blackpool North and Cleveleys MP Paul Maynard, while Prime Minister Boris Johnson has pledged to re-open the Poulton to Fleetwood line as part of a £500m national campaign to restore closed down track.

A report to the next meeting of the Blackpool, Fylde and Wyre Economic Prosperity Board on Tuesday January 7 says the aim is to create "a more cohesive Fylde Coast public transport system".
Blackpool Council, in conjunction with Lancashire County Council as transport authority for Fylde and Wyre, would undertake the feasibility study.

The report adds: "It is important that this opportunity is pursued to prepare the way to develop the tramway network further to enhance the sub-region in terms of accessibility, regeneration and environmental sustainability and support important economic sectors such as tourism.

"A more efficient and effective, modern and reliable, public transport system could be created by operating continuous tram lines between Kirkham and Wesham and Poulton-le-Fylde via Lytham, St Annes, Blackpool, Cleveleys, Fleetwood and Thornton.

"A tramway loop would also serve Blackpool Airport Enterprise Zone, Blackpool Pleasure Beach and Hillhouse International Enterprise Zone."
For the scheme to go ahead, it would also need the backing of rail operators and Network Rail.
The committee is being recommended to accept the proposals and approach the Ministry for Housing, Communities and Local Government and Lancashire County Council to ensure they are on board.
Bodies including Blackpool Transport, Network Rail, Community Rail Lancashire, Transport for the North, the DfT and the Poulton and
Wyre Railway Society would also be consulted.

The tramway is already being extended up Talbot Road to connect with Blackpool North train station.''
 

pieguyrob

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An alternative route, possibly.....

Put in a junction at Talbot Rd and Market Street send the tram down there onto Bank Hey Street and Central Drive. Then down New Bonney Street to the prom.

The trouble with that it would have to be single line only. Also the disruption it would cause would not be popular, on what is effectively a diversion route which would be used a couple of weekends a year....
 

seasidersfan

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Nice picture, thank you. Makes me smile every time I pass it!
Converting it to a tramway would be a retrograde step - only needs a dynamic passing loop between Lytham and St Annes. Fast rail service direct to Preston is far better. Maybe extend to Central station if cash available!!

No way. More people travel within the Fylde Coast than out of it which has been proven by data, so having the local connections is a priority. Heavy rail can run alongside maybe but light rail presents much bigger opportunities that can't be missed, and I'm glad it's being looked into. A passing loop with two trains an hour is nowhere near enough when compared to 4 or 5 trams an hour that go right into the Town Centre with more accessible services, greener transport etc. For the thousands in Lytham St Annes that live between stations at the moment the line may as well not exist. Trams will fill that gap and bring an effective service to where people actually want to go with no waiting around or changing modes. Extending rail to central would never happen because of the amount of bridges and roads in the way now, that'd be £100s of millions. A phased light rail scheme to South Fylde will solve that problem and be a much better option.
 

PR1Berske

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I'm all in favour of any extension of the tram system around the South Fylde Line but, given the state of the Fleetwood link, how do they intend to do anything with that, particularly post-electrification?

I took this photo some time ago of the state of the Poulton-Fleetwood junction:

Source: https://www.instagram.com/p/BW4goAylgos/


Image :




dG45iao.png



(Image shows line from Poulton-le-Fylde railway station, showing severed junction to the right and newly laid and ballast-ed line to the left).
 

seasidersfan

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Apologies for the crude phone sketch but think something like this is the only way to make an interchange at Poulton. Single track terminus with ramp/path through to station.
 

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Ianno87

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No way. More people travel within the Fylde Coast than out of it which has been proven by data, so having the local connections is a priority. Heavy rail can run alongside maybe but light rail presents much bigger opportunities that can't be missed, and I'm glad it's being looked into. A passing loop with two trains an hour is nowhere near enough when compared to 4 or 5 trams an hour that go right into the Town Centre with more accessible services, greener transport etc. For the thousands in Lytham St Annes that live between stations at the moment the line may as well not exist. Trams will fill that gap and bring an effective service to where people actually want to go with no waiting around or changing modes. Extending rail to central would never happen because of the amount of bridges and roads in the way now, that'd be £100s of millions. A phased light rail scheme to South Fylde will solve that problem and be a much better option.

Precisely, with Heavy Rail you might get one train per hour to Preston/Manchester but not serving the majority of demand.

Light Rail would be 4-5 or more trams per hour with opportunity for multiple onward connections per hour from Blackpool.
 

Clip

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I'm all in favour of any extension of the tram system around the South Fylde Line but, given the state of the Fleetwood link, how do they intend to do anything with that, particularly post-electrification?

I took this photo some time ago of the state of the Poulton-Fleetwood junction:

Source: https://www.instagram.com/p/BW4goAylgos/


Image :




dG45iao.png



(Image shows line from Poulton-le-Fylde railway station, showing severed junction to the right and newly laid and ballast-ed line to the left).

There is also a gantry for the OHLE right in the middle of that now
 

Aictos

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Precisely, with Heavy Rail you might get one train per hour to Preston/Manchester but not serving the majority of demand.

Light Rail would be 4-5 or more trams per hour with opportunity for multiple onward connections per hour from Blackpool.

I’m not local but I can understand that the tram proposal offers far more in terms of service frequency and accessibility to a greater area then a train proposal could.
 

Clip

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So its unclear what route this will take from St Annes as it cant use the existing route on the branch line because the enterprise zone is the other side of the airport so im assuing they will want to come from there down Squires gate lane to get to starr gate because Squires gate station is under the road and at a right angle to Starr gate so id be interested in their proposed route rather than a square map
 

pieguyrob

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The trains are 1 an hour each direction either to Colne or Preston shuttle.
 
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I’m not local but I can understand that the tram proposal offers far more in terms of service frequency and accessibility to a greater area then a train proposal could.
There are a lot of visitors using the South Fylde line to reach their accommodation in South Shore, Lytham St Annes.
Also trains are rammed with passengers going to Blackpool Pleasure Beach, which has its own station.
Although atm there is only 1 tph it is far easier to catch a South Fylde train, even with a wait.
On the busiest days of the year, traffic around the Town Centre becomes impossible, getting from Fleetwood to Blackpool South Shore is no joke. Tramway closed from Central Pier to North Pier.
Imo a dynamic bidirectional passing loop would be a very practical solution to increase capacity. The loop would start at the Preston end of St Annes station, and continue to just short of Lytham station. Andsell and Fairhaven would have every other train stopping there. No platform alterations, or extra disabled/access facilities would be needed. £2m maybe go half way to providing this!
A higher price if the second platforms brought back into use. This could allow up to 3 trains per hour. Double track would be great !!!
There is an excellent bus service from Town to Lytham St Annes via South Shore. Even so I often use train to Lytham St Annes Can be cheaper!

Poulton to Fleetwood. The tram terminus may have to be built at the end of existing tracks, with a footpath/ bridge to the rail station alongside the rail track?
Connection to converting tram BPS to Kirkham. This would be best done using the old rail track via Central Station to BPS.
 

seasidersfan

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There are a lot of visitors using the South Fylde line to reach their accommodation in South Shore, Lytham St Annes.
And a tram won't stop that from happening. Even if the conversion was all the way to Kirkham it doesn't stop people getting to their accommodation. Otherwise the railway could run alongside the tram if only for the first phases. In fact it would probably be easier with the higher frequency, more stops near hotels, level boarding etc. Plus they could buy a ticket for their whole week staying to use the tram into Blackpool. Not to mention many of those heading for South Shore may migrate to using the BPN line and the tram interchange once that is operational as it would be quicker overall with the frequencies and stops on the Prom.
Also trains are rammed with passengers going to Blackpool Pleasure Beach, which has its own station.
Only a few days a year in peak season. It's a ghost line most of the time. If you look at the numbers there are about 10 times less passengers using the SF line than the tramway. It's not very useful for locals either other than those travelling to Preston rather than Blackpool (which is a minority). To mention Pleasure Beach Station, it is on the opposite side of the park than the main entrance where tickets must be purchased, a 10-15 min walk away. Tram stop is right outside.
On the busiest days of the year, traffic around the Town Centre becomes impossible, getting from Fleetwood to Blackpool South Shore is no joke. Tramway closed from Central Pier to North Pier.
This is exactly why we need a tram line. Only two major roads between Blackpool and South Fylde, both gridlocked at peak times. Using the railway as a third corridor for a high capacity, frequent LRT link supplemented by P&R will surely relieve traffic. The tramway is closed one day a year for the illuminations switch on so not sure what that's about.
Imo a dynamic bidirectional passing loop would be a very practical solution to increase capacity. The loop would start at the Preston end of St Annes station, and continue to just short of Lytham station. Andsell and Fairhaven would have every other train stopping there. No platform alterations, or extra disabled/access facilities would be needed. £2m maybe go half way to providing this!
Why would thousands of extra passengers suddenly use a line that ends up nowhere and doesn't serve the needs of locals, doesn't cater for those between stops, and doesn't add any new routes, just by adding one extra train per hour (still nowhere near enough)? If a passing loop was implemented alongside a parallel tram service and didn't get in the way it could work, but what you describe would block the line to LRT and would be unforgivable forward planning with a lot of opposition. £2m would be nowhere near, more like £50m which I believe the cost range was. Of course the tram would be more than this but it would actually bring serious worthwhile benefits. Costs could be kept down by doing it in phases.
A higher price if the second platforms brought back into use. This could allow up to 3 trains per hour. Double track would be great !!!
There is an excellent bus service from Town to Lytham St Annes via South Shore. Even so I often use train to Lytham St Annes Can be cheaper!
Double track never happening as the demand isn't there without a better link into Blackpool and a way to get intermediate stops in there. Probably not even demand for a passing loop without direct link to Manchester which is also impossible due to congestion at the Castlefield corridor. Bus service isn't excellent, the road situation means they get stuck in traffic and take long meandering routes to the town centre. It's the best it can be, but buses aren't as effective of enticing people out of their cars as trams are.
Poulton to Fleetwood. The tram terminus may have to be built at the end of existing tracks, with a footpath/ bridge to the rail station alongside the rail track?
Connection to converting tram BPS to Kirkham. This would be best done using the old rail track via Central Station to BPS
Agree about Poulton to Fleetwood, footpath would be only way to do it. No need for the tram to go down the old central route when the Promenade route is already there.

Anyway I have said my piece...
 

edwin_m

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No need for the tram to go down the old central route when the Promenade route is already there.
The tram is only a couple of hundred metres from Pleasure Beach station so if the railway was converted that would be the obvious place to link them.
 

Bald Rick

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My 2 cents, purely from my own observations and experiences.

The majority of the traffic on the South Fylde line is to / from Preston and beyond. There isn’t much traffic starting and finishing on the branch, principally because the parallel bus services from Luton to Blackpool are rather better, actually get into central Blackpool, and (notably) free for a decent proportion of the population.

A significant majority, if not quite all, of the tourist traffic on the line is changing on to the line at Preston. Changing evidently isn’t a problem. Given that most (but by no means all) destinations reachable from Preston also have direct services to Blackpool North, it’s reasonable to assume that were the South Fylde line converted to tram operation to / from Kirkham, passengers would be content with changing there (with improved facilities) or route via Blackpool North, particularly given a much improved frequency.

Everyone I know in Lytham St Annes, and it’s quite a few, says they would use the line if it went to central Blackpool, and was more frequent. In my view a tram conversion would be by far the easiest and cheapest way of doing so.
 
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I favour the 'compromise solution' of truncating heavy-rail at St Annes, but extending the tramway to Lytham, with an 'overlap' of unconnected, single rail and tram tracks taking advantage of the former double formation. This retains South Fylde's heavy-rail link with Preston and beyond, yet gives it a frequent tram service to central Blackpool. Blackpool Central isn't coming back - it looks as if, just the 56 years since closure, that redevelopment might actually be starting this year. Blackpool South is worse than useless as a terminus. I hope some arrangement can be made to connect the tramway at Starr Gate with the rail formation at Squires Gate (rather than making a connection at the Pleasure Beach) - a 'stub' Starr Gate branch would be less than ideal. If the tramway was to be extended to beyond Lytham, it should be to Salcotes (terminus of the first generation tramway) and Warton (BAe site) rather than running across open country to Kirkham.
 
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Yes heavy rail tends to be more for longer journeys
And a tram won't stop that from happening. Even if the conversion was all the way to Kirkham it doesn't stop people getting to their accommodation. Otherwise the railway could run alongside the tram if only for the first phases. In fact it would probably be easier with the higher frequency, more stops near hotels, level boarding etc. Plus they could buy a ticket for their whole week staying to use the tram into Blackpool. Not to mention many of those heading for South Shore may migrate to using the BPN line and the tram interchange once that is operational as it would be quicker overall with the frequencies and stops on the Prom.
Only a few days a year in peak season. It's a ghost line most of the time. If you look at the numbers there are about 10 times less passengers using the SF line than the tramway. It's not very useful for locals either other than those travelling to Preston rather than Blackpool (which is a minority). To mention Pleasure Beach Station, it is on the opposite side of the park than the main entrance where tickets must be purchased, a 10-15 min walk away. Tram stop is right outside.
This is exactly why we need a tram line. Only two major roads between Blackpool and South Fylde, both gridlocked at peak times. Using the railway as a third corridor for a high capacity, frequent LRT link supplemented by P&R will surely relieve traffic. The tramway is closed one day a year for the illuminations switch on so not sure what that's about.
Why would thousands of extra passengers suddenly use a line that ends up nowhere and doesn't serve the needs of locals, doesn't cater for those between stops, and doesn't add any new routes, just by adding one extra train per hour (still nowhere near enough)? If a passing loop was implemented alongside a parallel tram service and didn't get in the way it could work, but what you describe would block the line to LRT and would be unforgivable forward planning with a lot of opposition. £2m would be nowhere near, more like £50m which I believe the cost range was. Of course the tram would be more than this but it would actually bring serious worthwhile benefits. Costs could be kept down by doing it in phases.
Double track never happening as the demand isn't there without a better link into Blackpool and a way to get intermediate stops in there. Probably not even demand for a passing loop without direct link to Manchester which is also impossible due to congestion at the Castlefield corridor. Bus service isn't excellent, the road situation means they get stuck in traffic and take long meandering routes to the town centre. It's the best it can be, but buses aren't as effective of enticing people out of their cars as trams are.
Agree about Poulton to Fleetwood, footpath would be only way to do it. No need for the tram to go down the old central route when the Promenade route is already there.
Anyway I have said my piece...

Ghost line?? - Blackpool South 117,240, Pleasure Beach 106,844, Squires Gate 19,972, St Annes 132,844, Lytham 98,234 most figure are lower, due to closure for engineering work. New figures due on 14th.
Pleasure Beach - majority of customer enter via the East entrance - close to station.
Did not know I lived nowhere, must be the Nowhere Man - great Beatles song!
the Prom is virtually deserted most days in Winter, Walking to Waterloo station is no fun in the wind!!
Cost of basic passing loop from £6m+??
You are saying that proposed tramway is going to be single track?
SOUTH RAILWAY does not run trough most of in between population so buses will still run!
Maybe tram on the road, or a cheaper way could be trolley buses! With batteries they could go off route.
Taking 2 forms of transport would be a pain, and add at least £3.50 to cost.
Manchester is in the Blackpool job seekers area, would be difficult to do a factory job from South Shore getting to BPN in morning for train to MAN.
 

Ianno87

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Pleasure Beach - majority of customer enter via the East entrance - close to station.
.

Last time I rode the line, the Pacer was stood at Pleasure Beach for a full 5 minutes with the length of time it took everybody to get off.
 
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