Boat Trains

[Taunton]

The through sleepers were First Class Only, but the bulk of the demand was Standard Class, for whom parallel arrangements were seated trains or portions on both sides, and walking on/off the ship. There was a comparable overnight London-Paris normal seated service via Newhaven-Dieppe.

If I remember correctly we had two staff to check the arriving passengers passports in the morning, and one for the departing passengers at night

I remember reading a contemporary article which described different procedures on the French side, that passengers handed their passports to the sleeping car attendant, and they were returned in the morning, having been checked along the way, hence no arrival checks at Paris. This sort of fits in with the old French way where you had to leave your passports at the front desk of any hotel on the first night, at about 3am the night porter had to take them down to the local gendarmerie to be registered. All the hotel night porters all arrived at the same time, and there was a rota for who brought along a bottle of wine from the hotel stocks which was shared and toasted by all, including, of course, the night gendarme

I think there were coke fired furnaces in each carriage to provide heating (would that be right?),

I believe so too, as the train was steam heated from the locomotive on each side, but there was no steam connection for the several hours that it was on the ship (a bit surprising, as the contemporary ships were steam turbine powered). I presume ETH was fitted when electric locos began, on both sides, around 1960.

 

[StephenHunter]

The British always opposed on train checks; they still do in fact.

Apparently during the 1960s, the NF could have as many as 16 coaches and 3 Fourgons on from Victoria!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Read George Behrends "Night Ferry" - the ultimate book on the subject.

Love the way the SE staff referred to the train as "the Doss House" .....

 

[30907]

The British always opposed on train checks; they still do in fact.

Apparently during the 1960s, the NF could have as many as 16 coaches and 3 Fourgons on from Victoria!

Load 17 was quite typical, with 2-3 fourgons, 7-8 sleepers and 2 breakfast cars plus the seats portion which also had a buffet car (the two portions had to be sealed off from each other for customs and immigration purposes, so it was very wasteful of catering vehicles).

 

[StephenHunter]

2 breakfast cars? What type are we talking there?

Also, eight sleepers with 9 compartments each makes 72 compartments or up to 144 passengers. Not sure you can get 144 people into two restaurant cars all in one go unless they're standng... was there a rota?

 

[30907]

2 breakfast cars? What type are we talking there?

Also, eight sleepers with 9 compartments each makes 72 compartments or up to 144 passengers. Not sure you can get 144 people into two restaurant cars all in one go unless they're standng... was there a rota?

The reference I Googled was RKB plus RSO in 1961, but you are quite right about seating capacity!
Mike King's OPC book on Southern Coaches says they were Maunsell Buffet cars rebuilt post war, fitted with a compatible gangway at one end and dual heat post electrification, plus Dining saloons. They would have been replaced by BR standards.
Not sure about the car for the sests passengers but I would have guessed Maunsell era.
The catering was withdrawn when the new dock at Dunkerque Ouest was opened and the train retimed much earlier into London.

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

Anyone remember the connecting trains from Charing Cross for the hovercraft crossing to Boulogne and onwards to Paris. These were just the on the hour service to Dover, fast from Waterloo East to Ashford but if I recall correctly were additional trains on a Sunday non-stop from Charing Cross to Dover Priory.

 

[30907]

Anyone remember the connecting trains from Charing Cross for the hovercraft crossing to Boulogne and onwards to Paris. These were just the on the hour service to Dover, fast from Waterloo East to Ashford but if I recall correctly were additional trains on a Sunday non-stop from Charing Cross to Dover Priory.

Yes, though as you say the weekday trains weren't dedicated services. Did the Sunday trains omit Waterloo East, I don't remember?

 

[Busaholic]

Anyone remember the connecting trains from Charing Cross for the hovercraft crossing to Boulogne and onwards to Paris. These were just the on the hour service to Dover, fast from Waterloo East to Ashford but if I recall correctly were additional trains on a Sunday non-stop from Charing Cross to Dover Priory.

Yes, I used them quite a few times when I lived first at Hither Green then at Blackheath. The problem was that on almost every occasion we'd get to France on the hovercraft alright but then the wind would blow a bit and the crossing back would get cancelled, so diverted to the boat, which was OK-ish when they still ran from Boulogne but if you had to trek up to Calais was a pain.

 

[Taunton]

Anyone remember the connecting trains from Charing Cross for the hovercraft crossing to Boulogne and onwards to Paris. These were just the on the hour service to Dover, fast from Waterloo East to Ashford but if I recall correctly were additional trains on a Sunday non-stop from Charing Cross to Dover Priory.

It was on exactly that service, sneaking away with a university girlfriend on one of those cheap Paris Travel all-inclusive weekend breaks by this service, that THIS (point 2) happened one Friday morning http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2201919&postcount=24

A memorable trip all round

 

[geoffk]

Someone may be able to build on this!

The following were running on BR Eastern Region in Summer 1955:

1. Harwich (Parkeston Quay) to/from Liverpool (Central) (not named in 1955 TT)
Weekdays only. Connected with night service to/from Hook of Holland.

I walked the Fallowfield Loop today, now a footpath/cycle route, from Fairfield in east Manchester to St. Werburgh's Road, where it joins the Metrolink line. The Harwich - Liverpool boat train came this way until 1966, changing from electric to steam at Guide Bridge, then a fresh loco at Manchester Central, where it reversed. I've a vague memory of using this train from Guide Bridge to Central in about 1964.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I posted some thoughts about Newhaven-Dieppe earlier, on the thread about Newhaven Marine station in the Infrastructure category. (But it awaits moderation and isn't visible at the time of writing this.)

But has no-one mentioned Ostend? I remember using the Dover-Ostend route to Brussels a few times in the 1970s. I can't remember the connection details on the UK side - my memories are probably mixed up with those of the Dover-Calais/Boulogne crossings I also did in those days, for Paris (and, in the '60s, a through train to Switzerland/Italy). I think there was a cheap night fare from London to Brussels - I remember getting a train from Ostend very early in the morning once, after a night crossing, and it picked up chain-smoking Belgian commuters at a couple of intermediate stations (Bruges and Ghent I guess). I'm sure I also got a ferry from Margate (or Ramsgate, more likely?) to Ostend at one stage years back - though there wasn't a special boat train from London, and you had to trot down to the harbour from the station. Ostend is an integrated railway station and port: off the boat, through the terminal building, and on to the platform; and when I was there a few years ago I found that it had been tarted up, and the bus and tram station was integrated too. All very wonderful ... except, that there are no foot passenger services on any of the boats from Ostend to anywhere these days. What a waste!

Re Folkestone, which has been mentioned. The line down to the harbour from the spur where the London trains pulled in before reversing down was incredibly steep. When the boat trains were pulled up the incline from the harbour, they needed several locomotives in pre-electrification days. There were sometimes tank engines at front and rear, and in the middle, as many as four in all. When I was a kid, in the '50s, my parents took me to Folkestone on holiday several times, and we always stayed in the same Guest House, on a little side road at the end of which was the (road) hill that ran down alongside the railway line. I found watching the steam trains struggling up the gradient far more interesting than my bucket and spade.

I always thought that the boat trains from Tilbury to St Pancras must have given arrivals a wonderful impression of London, getting off the boat train in that trainshed. A late colleague of mine, who came from India around 1960 or so to take up a job at an international organisation in London, came that way with his family - including his schoolboy son - following their boat journey from India. I'm convinced that the fact the son became an architect was because of the impact of arriving in Britain via that Barlow trainshed!

 

[WesternLancer]

I posted some thoughts about Newhaven-Dieppe earlier, on the thread about Newhaven Marine station in the Infrastructure category. (But it awaits moderation and isn't visible at the time of writing this.)

But has no-one mentioned Ostend? I remember using the Dover-Ostend route to Brussels a few times in the 1970s. I can't remember the connection details on the UK side - my memories are probably mixed up with those of the Dover-Calais/Boulogne crossings I also did in those days, for Paris (and, in the '60s, a through train to Switzerland/Italy). I think there was a cheap night fare from London to Brussels - I remember getting a train from Ostend very early in the morning once, after a night crossing, and it picked up chain-smoking Belgian commuters at a couple of intermediate stations (Bruges and Ghent I guess). I'm sure I also got a ferry from Margate (or Ramsgate, more likely?) to Ostend at one stage years back - though there wasn't a special boat train from London, and you had to trot down to the harbour from the station. Ostend is an integrated railway station and port: off the boat, through the terminal building, and on to the platform; and when I was there a few years ago I found that it had been tarted up, and the bus and tram station was integrated too. All very wonderful ... except, that there are no foot passenger services on any of the boats from Ostend to anywhere these days. What a waste!

Re Folkestone, which has been mentioned. The line down to the harbour from the spur where the London trains pulled in before reversing down was incredibly steep. When the boat trains were pulled up the incline from the harbour, they needed several locomotives in pre-electrification days. There were sometimes tank engines at front and rear, and in the middle, as many as four in all. When I was a kid, in the '50s, my parents took me to Folkestone on holiday several times, and we always stayed in the same Guest House, on a little side road at the end of which was the (road) hill that ran down alongside the railway line. I found watching the steam trains struggling up the gradient far more interesting than my bucket and spade.

I always thought that the boat trains from Tilbury to St Pancras must have given arrivals a wonderful impression of London, getting off the boat train in that trainshed. A late colleague of mine, who came from India around 1960 or so to take up a job at an international organisation in London, came that way with his family - including his schoolboy son - following their boat journey from India. I'm convinced that the fact the son became an architect was because of the impact of arriving in Britain via that Barlow trainshed!

I recall going on the jetfoil passenger only service, I'm sure from Ostend - in the early 1980s. In my childhood. This was slightly unusual as we usually took the family car Newhaven - Dieppe, so it sticks in my mind. This was to connect with a train to southern Germany from Ostend IIRC, where we broke the journey for a few days, then onwards to Italy.

 

[WesternLancer]

No mention of Newhaven yet !
Back in the 60's and 70's there was a day and night boat train from Victoria connectoing with the Dieppe ferries.
In the 70's I recall the daytime one being loco hauled Mk 1's with a Class 73.

And in later years the night service was often 12CEP with MLV/TLV making 14 coaches.

The final regular boat train (not sure of the end but think it was in 80's or early 90's) was a day service from Victoria which was often just a 4CIG. I think this ran on its own, but may have detached from a service train at Haywards Heath on occasions.

I certainly caught an evening boat train from Victoria to Newhaven in around December time in 1987 or perhaps 1986. Arrived Newhaven late evening, boat arrived Dieppe early morning, train arrived Paris St Lazare early - maybe before or around 7am. Pretty sure it was a 4 CIG or a couple of 4 CIG units (I suppose a VEP is possible). I'd been at the National Union of Students conference, which I seem to recall happened after / at the end of the autumn term in Blackpool. So I headed down the WCML and then across to Victoria and onwards. It was a midweek day, and I was joining family already in Paris.

The UK customs staff seemed surprised to encounter a foot passenger on a mid week winter night boat train. I recall being asked lots of questions about where I was going and why!

I thought / assumed boat trains on this route ceased when the channel tunnel opened. So would be interested to know if they in fact ceased earlier.

 

[vlad]

But has no-one mentioned Ostend? I remember using the Dover-Ostend route to Brussels a few times in the 1970s. I can't remember the connection details on the UK side - my memories are probably mixed up with those of the Dover-Calais/Boulogne crossings I also did in those days, for Paris (and, in the '60s, a through train to Switzerland/Italy).

I've done that twice - just before and just after the opening of the Channel Tunnel.

The first trip was a boat train non-stop from London Victoria to Ramsgate, followed by a free coach to the port. That was the theory, at least. In practice there was a signal failure in the Chatham area meaning we stopped near the Medway Bridge for over an hour and so missed the boat - it was over 4 hours to the next one. On the return journey the train from Brussels was announced as Ostend for London.

The second trip also had a designated boat train from London Victoria. This time, however, it seemed to serve as a local train as well as it stopped at several places en route and I remember a portion splitting off although I couldn't tell you where. From Brussels this time the train was just announced as going to Ostend, although of course it still connected to the Ramsgate ferry.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I've done that twice - just before and just after the opening of the Channel Tunnel.

The first trip was a boat train non-stop from London Victoria to Ramsgate, followed by a free coach to the port. That was the theory, at least. In practice there was a signal failure in the Chatham area meaning we stopped near the Medway Bridge for over an hour and so missed the boat - it was over 4 hours to the next one. On the return journey the train from Brussels was announced as Ostend for London.

The second trip also had a designated boat train from London Victoria. This time, however, it seemed to serve as a local train as well as it stopped at several places en route and I remember a portion splitting off although I couldn't tell you where. From Brussels this time the train was just announced as going to Ostend, although of course it still connected to the Ramsgate ferry.

Aha - I'm glad I wasn't imagining the Ramsgate connection to Ostend!

Re announcements "on the other side" on the way to the port, about the train being a connection for London: During the time when Paris-Dieppe trains were promoted as a route to London, the ferry they connected with sometimes connected with a Newhaven train that wasn't a Boat Train to London, but just a connection to Lewes and Brighton. I remember once being puzzled by an announcement in French, before arrival in Dieppe, about passengers for London needing to change at "Leurs". It took me a while to figure it out.

I also used the hovercraft connection from Pegwell Bay (near Ramsgate) to Calais a couple of times in the late '70s - hitchhiking most of the way from London to the coast was usually easy, but the last bit always took ages.

Since I erroneously posted some Boat Train-related thoughts on the thread about the future of Newhaven Marine station, before discovering this thread, I'll copy a relevant bit here for completeness...

"When I used to use the Dieppe route from time to time, decades ago, it was in the days of co-ordinated and co-operative public undertakings running the trains and boats. (So a London-Paris ticket let you get any train from London to Dover, pretty much any boat across, and any train via any reasonable route on to Paris, from whichever French port you ended up at.) But there were special tickets if you booked specifically via Newhaven-Dieppe, and specifically on the night boat - that way it was ridiculously cheap (just a few pounds I seem to remember). You could leave London well into the evening, and be in Paris the next morning, albeit without much time to sleep since the journey was split into three. In that period, the boat-train link in Dieppe was as it was in Newhaven, ie, walk off the boat and straight onto the train in one integrated - albeit primitive - terminal. The Paris train then ran down some streets alongside the dock, inches from people's bedroom windows, until it linked up with the main line. Needless to say, that dockside line was closed years ago, and a through passenger at Dieppe now has to hoof it through the town to get a train."

In connection with the threads, it seems to me that reinstating good passenger connections between trains and ferries - even without dedicated Boat Trains, given likely usage levels - should be something for the present and future, not just the past. Better integration is essential to encourage people to make more public-spirited choices when traveling. A few years ago I planned a brief visit to Calais, but was deterred when I found that the dedicated bus link from Dover Priory to the port had stopped, and there was no direct connection on any regular bus route either. And on the Calais side, there was no longer any bus link from the ferry terminal to anywhere in the town, let alone the station. Enquiries to both port authorities and both tourist offices elicited nothing more than a brush-off. So neither the ferry company nor Calais got my custom.

So - should there be a thread about train-boat integration ideas/needs that isn't in the nostalgia section?!

 

[PeterC]

Anyone remember the connecting trains from Charing Cross for the hovercraft crossing to Boulogne and onwards to Paris. These were just the on the hour service to Dover, fast from Waterloo East to Ashford but if I recall correctly were additional trains on a Sunday non-stop from Charing Cross to Dover Priory.

Used the service once. I remember on the French side the train came right up to the hovercraft terminal.

My main recollection is that we were travelling from Laon which by train meant going via Gare du Nord. When the platform for the aeroglisseur connection was announced it turned out to be the same train that had brought us from Laon.

 

[WesternLancer]

Used the service once. I remember on the French side the train came right up to the hovercraft terminal.

My main recollection is that we were travelling from Laon which by train meant going via Gare du Nord. When the platform for the aeroglisseur connection was announced it turned out to be the same train that had brought us from Laon.

Yes, interesting difference between a train that permitted through ticketing etc to a 'port' (inc hover port) but the train did not go dockside instead a bus shuttle type connection.

Compared with what I call a 'proper' boat train where it goes to a harbour station ship side or v close. Even if said train carries other passengers and stops en route, which I would regard as perfectly acceptable (I mean an en route stop between London and Dover Marine or Newhaven Marine etc is perfectly sensible given people in the town concerned could well also want to go to the shipside station.

 

[03_179]

I caught the Victoria to Dover Western Docks train on 1st August 1992.

I think it left about 09:00 but not sure. We caught the ferry to Oostende.

OK so VERY long shot but anyone know what the unit was on that one ?