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Bolton Line 95/100mph Speed Increase

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Llama

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Do you drive them ? How do you find them (if you do) I hope they improved them from their time down South. Are they still !$£$ in the wet ?

Cheers in advance.
Yes, most days. They are ok, gutless above about 70-80mph but good from 25-70. I have been in touch with someone who has been heavily involved in their traction equipment over the years so I understand better now why they are how they are. Never had any problems with them myself, touch wood.

And yes, they are still bad in the wet, which they see a lot of up here! More starting away than braking though, but they are quite a bit more skittish under braking than 158s are.
 
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Clip

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I appreciate they've increased some just now, but will they not reduce the ones they've increased to less than what the were before they increased them though?

One hopes so in the future but you can imagine its frustrating for the time being when people have to get to work

That is just being unlucky and ending up at Euxton at the same time as the Liverpool Blackpool goes by, then the Lancaster Euston in the other direction. Both the Northerns stopping at Leyland too which requires 2N60 to be on the fasts.

Yeah i noticed that when it first changed and it is what it is but pretty poor planning really. Can always tell when the signaller lets a late from Blackpool south out in front on the way back too but im guessing thats to make sure it gets its path through preston without delaying much else
 

hexagon789

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They have removed some of the slowest restrictions which is a much more cost-effective way to improve end to end jojurney times.

So there were more substantial slacks for stations/junctions en route previously then?
 

Joseph_Locke

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So there were more substantial slacks for stations/junctions en route previously then?

40 though Chorley now 70, generally 75 raised to 90/95/100 by small signalling changes and limited track renewal, big sort out of speeds between Bolton and Kearsley (including Farnworth Tunnel), approach controls removed on Up into Salford Crescent. The only really slow bit left is the 20 at Bolton, but just about everything called / calls and the curve to the north can't support a higher speed.

I'd be interested to hear Llama's views on the new speed profile, if you drive it?
 

hexagon789

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40 though Chorley now 70, generally 75 raised to 90/95/100 by small signalling changes and limited track renewal, big sort out of speeds between Bolton and Kearsley (including Farnworth Tunnel), approach controls removed on Up into Salford Crescent. The only really slow bit left is the 20 at Bolton, but just about everything called / calls and the curve to the north can't support a higher speed.

Thank you, it's interesting to read a summary of the alterations that have been made.
 

td97

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In the other direction 95 is attainable, however there is a longstanding short 75mph TSR after Kearsley so 95 is only really likely down near Clifton at the moment.
Thanks for the insight. Do you know the reason/duration for the TSR?
Yes, most days. They are ok, gutless above about 70-80mph but good from 25-70.
Perfectly mirrored by the graph on the original post.
I'd be interested to hear Llama's views on the new speed profile
Likewise
 

The Snap

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It's in the notices as 'Condition of embankment', as for how long.... how long is a piece of string?
If it’s the embankment at Stoneclough, north of Clifton, the renewal is planned for Year 2, so 2020/21. Although, it does involve the compulsory purchase of a house so may drag on longer than that...
 

bengley

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40 though Chorley now 70, generally 75 raised to 90/95/100 by small signalling changes and limited track renewal, big sort out of speeds between Bolton and Kearsley (including Farnworth Tunnel), approach controls removed on Up into Salford Crescent. The only really slow bit left is the 20 at Bolton, but just about everything called / calls and the curve to the north can't support a higher speed.

I'd be interested to hear Llama's views on the new speed profile, if you drive it?

Chorley is 75 fyi. It's 75 from the South end of Chorley station to the 50 at Euxton Jn (or 60 on the up)
 

Llama

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One thing I can't quite get my head around is the speed drop into Bolton coming from Manchester. It was 40 into platform 4, now it's 20 (including into the new platform 5) which probably costs up to half a minute for every train. As it was we could hit the start of the platform at 40 and stop smoothly and accurately (depending where the stop marker boards had been positioned that week).

However from the same platforms departing in the up direction (towards Manchester) the speed is 40.

Going in to platform 3 in the down direction, which can now only be done by trains continuing to Darwen or reversing and going back to Manchester, the 20 doesn't apply and the permissible speed is 40, after proceeding over a crossover at Bolton East Jn at 35mph.

So if it is 40 one way and 20 the other I doubt that it can be down to pantograph uplift vs station canopy issues. Signal sighting would be my next guess but I can't see (pun intended) any issues with the signals protecting Bolton West Jn in the down direction.

Another surprise for me is that a ventilation shaft wasn't retained in Farnworth tunnel. It's been a little uncomfortable on the ears if two trains meet at 75mph since it was re-engineered, and more so at higher speeds. I've not been through it at 100mph, only possible on a 350 unit at the moment as neither 185s nor 390s are permitted to proceed at 'MU' differential speeds.

With regard to my opinion on the speed profiles, I'm not sure what exactly is meant. 319s aren't really able to take the best advantage of the new speeds but the 331s will be a big change, they are monstrously quick compared to a 319, especially the 3-car 331s which have the same traction equipment/performance as the 4-car sets do and obviously less dead weight.

As it is 319s need notching back as they easily reach the 50mph after Crescent and the 75mph which runs until after Agecroft, but with a 319 wide open 85-90mph is the maximum attainable between where the speed increases and where it drops from 100 to 50 after Green Lane overbridge. This drop to 50 is a reduction compared to the former layout which was 60 from Farnworth to Burnden Jn, although I suspect that the current lower permissible speed of 50 is necessary to squeeze the extra signal in since the remodelling of Bolton East.

Continuing towards Preston, if stopping at all shacks the maximum permissible speed might as well be 75mph if you are on a 319, only between Adlington and Chorley is anything slightly above 75 realistic.

Coming back, again 75 or less is about all you'll get on a stopping 319 between Euxton Jn and Bolton. Leaving Bolton, the 55 is easily reached, the 95 is scuppered early on by that 75mph slack at Stoneclough but once clear of it all 319s should creep up to the line speed of 95 before Clifton. The drop to 75 before Agecroft us understandable with the new signalling layout.

The removal of the approach control signalling at Windsor Bridge North was a huge plus, that can save a minute from each train as if it's all set for us now with a clear run we can be doing 75 all the way well past Agecroft South Jn where we needed to be down to 50 or less before the work.

Before any of the work, when trains used the old Down bore at Farnworth and its 50mph PSR it was just about possible to get from Crescent to Bolton in less than ten minutes (having a 158 helped). Now it is routinely possible in eight and a half.

In the up direction Bolton to Crescent was possible in ten minutes even with the approach control at Windsor Bridge, but now three minutes can easily be shaved off that.
 

Ianno87

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Re: The 20mph now applying from the ramps in the Down direction at Bolton. I would guess something to do with modern rules on where speed limit signs can be placed in relation to platforms/curves/signals/AWS etc? The old 20 board was located immediately off the end of the platform on departure which may not be good practice any more?

But yes, it does slow the run in to the platform quite remarkably compared to before.
 

Llama

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Re: The 20mph now applying from the ramps in the Down direction at Bolton. I would guess something to do with modern rules on where speed limit signs can be placed in relation to platforms/curves/signals/AWS etc? The old 20 board was located immediately off the end of the platform on departure which may not be good practice any more?

But yes, it does slow the run in to the platform quite remarkably compared to before.

It's possible, but I'm not sure that would definitely be the case, a board could have been placed on the right-hand side of the down Bolton line (platform 4) with good visibility; platform 5 also has a 20mph board at the Lostock end. Platform 3 in the down direction is still 40 along the platform then 15 onto the down Darwen line.
 

Senex

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Re: The 20mph now applying from the ramps in the Down direction at Bolton. I would guess something to do with modern rules on where speed limit signs can be placed in relation to platforms/curves/signals/AWS etc? The old 20 board was located immediately off the end of the platform on departure which may not be good practice any more?

But yes, it does slow the run in to the platform quite remarkably compared to before.
So how many of the seconds gained by raising line-speeds are lost by the impact of this reduction from 40 to 20 in the platform? It does seem very odd if the speed in platform 3 remains at 40.
Whilst on the topic of speeds, does anyone know why Chorley is only 75 after such extensive works were done? Is the radius of the curve here significantly tighter than it looks on the map?
 

td97

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With regard to my opinion on the speed profiles, I'm not sure what exactly is meant.
Exactly what you have provided with your detailed account. I, for one, appreciate the effort you've gone to, to contribute such an excellent summary.
Will certainly be good to see the better-accelerating 331s on the line upon their introduction. I'll make a point of re-doing the speed-distance graph to see how they compare.
I've a feeling even 323s would manage better than 319s, especially on the Vic/Preston stopper, where top speed is less important than acceleration.
 

Llama

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So how many of the seconds gained by raising line-speeds are lost by the impact of this reduction from 40 to 20 in the platform? It does seem very odd if the speed in platform 3 remains at 40.
Whilst on the topic of speeds, does anyone know why Chorley is only 75 after such extensive works were done? Is the radius of the curve here significantly tighter than it looks on the map?
Chorley was 50mph both directions through the station prior to the work so it is a decent improvement at least. I suspect that there may be standards reasons which have come in to play, and the clearance to the cutting/retaining wall in the left hand curve before Chorley Tunnel seems very tight. Also the sighting of the two main aspect signals after Chorley in the down (and the one prior to & one at the end of the platform at Chorley in the up direction) is also possibly pushing limits.
 

Joseph_Locke

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One thing I can't quite get my head around is the speed drop into Bolton coming from Manchester. It was 40 into platform 4, now it's 20 (including into the new platform 5) which probably costs up to half a minute for every train. As it was we could hit the start of the platform at 40 and stop smoothly and accurately (depending where the stop marker boards had been positioned that week).

However from the same platforms departing in the up direction (towards Manchester) the speed is 40.

Going in to platform 3 in the down direction, which can now only be done by trains continuing to Darwen or reversing and going back to Manchester, the 20 doesn't apply and the permissible speed is 40, after proceeding over a crossover at Bolton East Jn at 35mph.

So if it is 40 one way and 20 the other I doubt that it can be down to pantograph uplift vs station canopy issues. Signal sighting would be my next guess but I can't see (pun intended) any issues with the signals protecting Bolton West Jn in the down direction.

Another surprise for me is that a ventilation shaft wasn't retained in Farnworth tunnel. It's been a little uncomfortable on the ears if two trains meet at 75mph since it was re-engineered, and more so at higher speeds. I've not been through it at 100mph, only possible on a 350 unit at the moment as neither 185s nor 390s are permitted to proceed at 'MU' differential speeds.

With regard to my opinion on the speed profiles, I'm not sure what exactly is meant. 319s aren't really able to take the best advantage of the new speeds but the 331s will be a big change, they are monstrously quick compared to a 319, especially the 3-car 331s which have the same traction equipment/performance as the 4-car sets do and obviously less dead weight.

As it is 319s need notching back as they easily reach the 50mph after Crescent and the 75mph which runs until after Agecroft, but with a 319 wide open 85-90mph is the maximum attainable between where the speed increases and where it drops from 100 to 50 after Green Lane overbridge. This drop to 50 is a reduction compared to the former layout which was 60 from Farnworth to Burnden Jn, although I suspect that the current lower permissible speed of 50 is necessary to squeeze the extra signal in since the remodelling of Bolton East.

Continuing towards Preston, if stopping at all shacks the maximum permissible speed might as well be 75mph if you are on a 319, only between Adlington and Chorley is anything slightly above 75 realistic.

Coming back, again 75 or less is about all you'll get on a stopping 319 between Euxton Jn and Bolton. Leaving Bolton, the 55 is easily reached, the 95 is scuppered early on by that 75mph slack at Stoneclough but once clear of it all 319s should creep up to the line speed of 95 before Clifton. The drop to 75 before Agecroft us understandable with the new signalling layout.

The removal of the approach control signalling at Windsor Bridge North was a huge plus, that can save a minute from each train as if it's all set for us now with a clear run we can be doing 75 all the way well past Agecroft South Jn where we needed to be down to 50 or less before the work.

Before any of the work, when trains used the old Down bore at Farnworth and its 50mph PSR it was just about possible to get from Crescent to Bolton in less than ten minutes (having a 158 helped). Now it is routinely possible in eight and a half.

In the up direction Bolton to Crescent was possible in ten minutes even with the approach control at Windsor Bridge, but now three minutes can easily be shaved off that.

Re: The 20mph now applying from the ramps in the Down direction at Bolton. I would guess something to do with modern rules on where speed limit signs can be placed in relation to platforms/curves/signals/AWS etc? The old 20 board was located immediately off the end of the platform on departure which may not be good practice any more?

But yes, it does slow the run in to the platform quite remarkably compared to before.

It's possible, but I'm not sure that would definitely be the case, a board could have been placed on the right-hand side of the down Bolton line (platform 4) with good visibility; platform 5 also has a 20mph board at the Lostock end. Platform 3 in the down direction is still 40 along the platform then 15 onto the down Darwen line.

So how many of the seconds gained by raising line-speeds are lost by the impact of this reduction from 40 to 20 in the platform? It does seem very odd if the speed in platform 3 remains at 40.
Whilst on the topic of speeds, does anyone know why Chorley is only 75 after such extensive works were done? Is the radius of the curve here significantly tighter than it looks on the map?

Chorley was 50mph both directions through the station prior to the work so it is a decent improvement at least. I suspect that there may be standards reasons which have come in to play, and the clearance to the cutting/retaining wall in the left hand curve before Chorley Tunnel seems very tight. Also the sighting of the two main aspect signals after Chorley in the down (and the one prior to & one at the end of the platform at Chorley in the up direction) is also possibly pushing limits.

Llama, many thanks; I was heavily involved in developing the scheme and it's good to get some (generally positive) feedback on our efforts.

The positioning of the 20s at Bolton are Northern's fault - we wanted them at the AWS for the starters (the 20 is required for the old parcels subway and the curves beyond) but the Northern reps on the sighting committee didn't like that. It dooesn't make a huge difference in time.

The 75 through Chorley is limited by the curve into the tunnel, and it's not worth raising it between the tunnel and Euxton as not even a 350 would make much use of it. The Up direction signal at Chorley has a banner already and much faster would need a second one.
 

hexagon789

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Exactly what you have provided with your detailed account. I, for one, appreciate the effort you've gone to, to contribute such an excellent summary.
Will certainly be good to see the better-accelerating 331s on the line upon their introduction. I'll make a point of re-doing the speed-distance graph to see how they compare.
I've a feeling even 323s would manage better than 319s, especially on the Vic/Preston stopper, where top speed is less important than acceleration.

Eversholt have put up acceleration graphs for most of their fleet on their website. The 331s look to be less than 30 seconds to 60mph and about 85s to 100mph
 

Llama

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Llama, many thanks; I was heavily involved in developing the scheme and it's good to get some (generally positive) feedback on our efforts.

The positioning of the 20s at Bolton are Northern's fault - we wanted them at the AWS for the starters (the 20 is required for the old parcels subway and the curves beyond) but the Northern reps on the sighting committee didn't like that. It dooesn't make a huge difference in time.

The 75 through Chorley is limited by the curve into the tunnel, and it's not worth raising it between the tunnel and Euxton as not even a 350 would make much use of it. The Up direction signal at Chorley has a banner already and much faster would need a second one.
Cheers, that 20 does make more sense now. And thanks for the insight!
 

Senex

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Llama, many thanks; I was heavily involved in developing the scheme and it's good to get some (generally positive) feedback on our efforts.

The positioning of the 20s at Bolton are Northern's fault - we wanted them at the AWS for the starters (the 20 is required for the old parcels subway and the curves beyond) but the Northern reps on the sighting committee didn't like that. It dooesn't make a huge difference in time.

The 75 through Chorley is limited by the curve into the tunnel, and it's not worth raising it between the tunnel and Euxton as not even a 350 would make much use of it. The Up direction signal at Chorley has a banner already and much faster would need a second one.
So it is that curve — thanks for clarifying. From an attempt to scale off Google Earth it looks like a radius of a little under 800 metres, which fits in with that sort of speed. And if 75 there, then what you say about the little bit on to Euxton makes perfect sense.
Incidentally, does anyone know yet if the 397s when they appear will be allowed (E)MU speeds or will they be like the 185s (and Pendolinos) and restricted to the lowest passenger speeds?
 

Llama

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The 397 vehicles aren't particularly long or heavy, I'd be surprised if there were issues with MU speeds.
 

td97

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First time in a while that I had a good unchecked run in the down direction. Service was 11L with nothing ahead.
As previously stated by Llama, the 319 is incapable of reaching 95mph on this stretch, and I've quoted Llama's excellent commentary which describes the graph.
319s aren't really able to take the best advantage of the new speeds
As it is 319s need notching back as they easily reach the 50mph after Crescent and the 75mph which runs until after Agecroft, but with a 319 wide open 85-90mph is the maximum attainable between where the speed increases and where it drops from 100 to 50 after Green Lane overbridge. This drop to 50 is a reduction compared to the former layout which was 60 from Farnworth to Burnden Jn, although I suspect that the current lower permissible speed of 50 is necessary to squeeze the extra signal in since the remodelling of Bolton East.
Attached is GPS information for Salford Crescent - Bolton. Average speed of 64mph is very impressive.
Can be compared with post #1 if desired, which is an unchecked up journey.
 

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