Booking engines telling passengers to change from HSTs to Sprinters?

[azz7008]

Does anyone seriously believe the booking systems are clever enough to know which trains are likely to be busy?

In terms of computing this would be relatively easy to do (in theory). All that would be needed is another field in their database (which would be very complex in itself) that would state Percentage load. Then within the Logic layer/ SQL there would need to be some code that basically checks to see if there is more than one possible route, then the percentage load comes into play.

Sounds complex but would be relatively simple to code, implementing it would be much more complex but definitely doable.

 

[PHILIPE]

I would prefer to travel as far as I could before changing in case some incident happens in front of you if you change at the first station. Get as far as you can.

 

[Senex]

I would prefer to travel as far as I could before changing in case some incident happens in front of you if you change at the first station. Get as far as you can.

I agree completely with that principle. And it's an added bonus if the first train is high-quality rolling stock whilst the second train is suburban stuff -- maybe even a Pacer!

 

[Envoy]

I used to have a similar situation with my Nottingham to Bristol journey. There are two services involved - a 170 from Nottingham to Birmingham or Cardiff, and a Voyager/HST from the North or Manchester to Bristol. The standard change points are therefore Derby, Birmingham and Cheltenham.

NRE would recommend changing at Birmingham, but my preference was always to change at Derby as I was more likely to get a seat. That said, Birmingham is the change you would make between the NOT-BHM and MAN-BRI, so it does make a sort of sense to apply that to NOT-CDF and GLC-PNZ.

You would not want to change at Birmingham New Street if you've been reading my previous thread about air pollution!
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=127251

 

[paul1609]

Not necessarily. The last time I did Bristol-Paignton, the connection at Newton for Paignton departed from the up platform. I had to go over the footbridge.

Ive not travelled that way for some time but it certainly used to be the case that nearly all evening Paddington to Plymouth services called at the up platform at Newton Abbott. I think the approach from Teignmouth even has flashing yellows to promote a speedy crossover on the approach. I think it was so people exiting the station didn't have to use the footbridge.

 

[D1009]

Ive not travelled that way for some time but it certainly used to be the case that nearly all evening Paddington to Plymouth services called at the up platform at Newton Abbott.

Very few do these days, but one that does is the 1206 Paddington to Penzance.

I often travel on the 1207 Manchester to Exeter, as it is normally very quiet west of Bristol. It goes into platform 3 at Taunton, and platform 6 at Exeter. Most Train Managers make announcements to passengers travelling towards Cornwall to change at Tiverton Parkway to avoid the footbridges otherwise involved.

 

[theblackwatch]

Does anyone seriously believe the booking systems are clever enough to know which trains are likely to be busy?

Interestingly, in Switzerland, they do give an indication as to how busy trains will be, see the attached examples.

 

[Phil from Mon]

What happens with an advance ticket. You are clearly on both booked trains, but do you have to change at the point you are told to? I'm thinking here of tickets from London to the smaller stations on the North Wales coast and Anglesey. It is far more convenient to change at Llandudno Jct or Bangor, but in my experience advance tickets generally change you at Chester.

 

[TheEdge]

What happens with an advance ticket. You are clearly on both booked trains, but do you have to change at the point you are told to? I'm thinking here of tickets from London to the smaller stations on the North Wales coast and Anglesey. It is far more convenient to change at Llandudno Jct or Bangor, but in my experience advance tickets generally change you at Chester.

This pops up on the Breckland Line fairly often with advances. Passengers board at Wymondham or Attleborough with northbound advances, they always give Thetford as the change for the East Mids service, disregarding Ely which is called at by both the AGA and EMT services and has no impact on the journey. For standard tickets its just an academic point but for firsts less so as the AGA services generally have first whereas EMT don't and people often want to stay in first for longer.

 

[blackhill]

I remember booking the chiefton from kings x to Perth and was advised to get off with my luggage ! at Edinburgh board scotrail dmu arriving at Perth 17.53 same hst arrives at Perth 17.56. I wonder how many tourists this catches out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I remember booking the chiefton from kings x to Perth and was advised to get off with my luggage ! at Edinburgh board scotrail dmu arriving at Perth 17.53 same hst arrives at Perth 17.56. I wonder how many tourists this catches out.

The solution to this kind of thing is probably to show both options. It's often caused by recovery time, though.

 

[robbeech]

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/rail-travel/your-journey/train-seat-availability/

This i guess goes some way to giving people an idea of what services may or may not be busy, perhaps other TOCs have a similar thing. not integrated with a ticket booking system though.


Rob

 

[Envoy]

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/rail-travel/your-journey/train-seat-availability/

This i guess goes some way to giving people an idea of what services may or may not be busy, perhaps other TOCs have a similar thing. not integrated with a ticket booking system though.


Rob

I have just tried out your link to Virgin. I note that the list does not include Crewe - which is a major interchange. (For example for journeys between south Wales & Scotland using The Marches route via Hereford).

I also note that it is impossible to get a reasonable fare between south Wales & Scotland - possibly due to price fixing by Cross Country = a company that you would not even use between south Wales & Scotland as the Marches route (ATW) is about 1 hour quicker. Another reason for the high fares seems to be because the Arriva Trains Wales & VIrgin computer systems do not 'talk to each other' to work out the cheapest combined fare. Those in the know, split the ticket at Crewe but I have heard from members of the public, who, on seeing the high fares, simply fly or drive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interestingly, in Switzerland, they do give an indication as to how busy trains will be, see the attached examples.

Many UK TOCs have that data - certainly LM and VTEC do (LM have it on posters, VTEC have a "busy train finder" on their website), and then there is the reservation data as well. I definitely think the UK should move to include it in journey planners.

The presence or absence of the black R (reservations recommended) is a help, but it's not really granular enough.

 

[Essexman]

I remember booking the chiefton from kings x to Perth and was advised to get off with my luggage ! at Edinburgh board scotrail dmu arriving at Perth 17.53 same hst arrives at Perth 17.56. I wonder how many tourists this catches out.

Similarly booking engines used to suggest changing from some London trains at Stockport to arrive a couple of minutes earlier into Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[PHILIPE]

Computers and their systems can provide information, process information, search for things and many other functions but this thread illustrates they can do all these clever things but that nobody has devised a programe by which they can think.

 

[Envoy]

Computers and their systems can provide information, process information, search for things and many other functions but this thread illustrates they can do all these clever things but that nobody has devised a programe by which they can think.

In view of some of the anomalies that the systems are throwing up, I wonder if the TOC's would like to correct those that appear on a regular basis each time the schedules are changed? After all, it could well be in their interests if members of the public are being told to leave lightly loaded trains for fuller services. (Most members of the public will follow the schedule that they are given for fear of invoking penalties for using the 'wrong trains').

 

[158801]

The original journey planners used to tell you to change at the first possible interchange if you specified a "depart at" and the last possible interchange if you specified an "arrive by".

Not sure if this is still the case.

 

[David Goddard]

Great discussion this, and one which has conjured up questions many a time in our neck of the woods. One I have seen down here is that for Reading to Weymouth (XC then SWT), the booking engines say to change at Winchester. This makes sense as it will be the same platform. Although the two services shadow each other for sixty miles, the other stations are less convenient - only one of the two Weymouth trains calls at Basingstoke, Southampton Parkway is exposed and draughty, and then at Southampton and Bournemouth a platform change could be required. Plus the Café Destino at Winchester does a cracking bacon roll!

With walk up tickets, the passenger really can make their own mind up with where they change, however the concern I have with Advances, which come with reservation, is that by changing at a different station, the seat allocated for the balance of your journey may be reserved for someone else on the "switched" leg. With Voyagers so busy, and some seats seeing four different reservations in a trip from Bournemouth to Manchester this is likely, and so if you switch at a station different to where your itinerary has arranged, you may find your seat already occupied if changing earlier, or being turfed out of your existing seat if you stay on and change later.

 

[fairysdad]

What happens with an advance ticket. You are clearly on both booked trains, but do you have to change at the point you are told to? I'm thinking here of tickets from London to the smaller stations on the North Wales coast and Anglesey. It is far more convenient to change at Llandudno Jct or Bangor, but in my experience advance tickets generally change you at Chester.

I've been reading this thread wondering about Advance tickets as well, but in a slightly different way.

Perhaps one of the reason that booking engines do it this way (and I'll admit I haven't checked anything to back up my theory) is to do with advance tickets and allocations. As I understand it (although I'm not a ticketing guru), Advance tickets are allocated to specific point-to-point routes depending on flow etc.

Taking the original Paddington to Totnes route as the example, with the given change at Exeter St David's rather than the possibly more convenient Newton Abbot. It could be that all the allocations for advance tickets on the HST between Paddington and Newton Abbot have been sold, but there are still a number of Paddington to Exeter St David's tickets available. Thus, change at Exeter rather than Newton for the reservation-free local service.

I realise I'm probably waaaaaayyyyyy off course with this here, but a theory is a theory!

 

[Phil from Mon]

I've asked this Advance ticket question a couple of times now! here and in the fares forum, and no one seems to have the answer. Maybe the only way is to try it out on a shortish journey and see what happens! Not volunteering, by the way!

 

[father_jack]

I've been reading this thread wondering about Advance tickets as well, but in a slightly different way.

Perhaps one of the reason that booking engines do it this way (and I'll admit I haven't checked anything to back up my theory) is to do with advance tickets and allocations. As I understand it (although I'm not a ticketing guru), Advance tickets are allocated to specific point-to-point routes depending on flow etc.

Taking the original Paddington to Totnes route as the example, with the given change at Exeter St David's rather than the possibly more convenient Newton Abbot. It could be that all the allocations for advance tickets on the HST between Paddington and Newton Abbot have been sold, but there are still a number of Paddington to Exeter St David's tickets available. Thus, change at Exeter rather than Newton for the reservation-free local service.

I realise I'm probably waaaaaayyyyyy off course with this here, but a theory is a theory!

Most PAD-TOT services are through but indeed you could get a PAD-PGN and then a stopper to TOT but there aren't many examples.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

At the other end of ATW-land, if you ask for a journey from (say) Rhyl to Manchester Airport, you will be told to change at Manchester Oxford Road rather than Piccadilly.
This despite Piccadilly being cross-platform, and Oxford Road mostly requiring a trek over the bridge from P3 to P4, probably with heavy airport luggage.
At least there is a lift now at Oxford Road (after donkey's years being out of use).
But the ATW service from Llandudno is the only one in the hour from the west to dump you at P3, everything else uses P4.
I always go to Piccadilly.

 

[fairysdad]

Most PAD-TOT services are through but indeed you could get a PAD-PGN and then a stopper to TOT but there aren't many examples.

I was just using one of the examples given in the opening post

 

[Mitch in Notts]

Surely you would want to travel as close to your destination on your first train? If the terminus (or furthest interchange) of that first train will provide 'more' train departures to your end destination, you are much closer to home to deal with any delays or cancellations caused elsewhere.

 

[3141]

Computers and their systems can provide information, process information, search for things and many other functions but this thread illustrates they can do all these clever things but that nobody has devised a programe by which they can think.

In the past, if you went to a BR enquiry office a real live human being would probably tell you where you might change and what were the pros and cons of changing at one place or another.

Unfortunately, it's the generally accepted view today that computers do everything more efficiently than human beings, and not only does no-one care that they can't provide a helpful service in the circumstances being discussed in this thread, but if you suggest that the computer's answer is unhelpful you'll be told you're wrong.

Many passengers, and probably the majority, won't known that they could change at another point on the line. They've looked on the internet, they've been given an answer to their question, that must be it.

Surely you would want to travel as close to your destination on your first train? If the terminus (or furthest interchange) of that first train will provide 'more' train departures to your end destination, you are much closer to home to deal with any delays or cancellations caused elsewhere.

I agree. For a similar reason, I'd prefer to get on a crowded Underground train rather than wait for the next one, which may be a bit less crowded, but might also have a problem further down the line and cause me to be much later getting where I want to be.

 

[HH]

This has always been a problem with Journey Planner. I recall a journey I put in many years ago that had me taking a slow train all the way, when a faster train and a change would have allowed me to leave 20 minutes later.

Now I can see that they might have programmed in a time penalty for changing trains, but surely not 20 minutes!

 

[route:oxford]

Surely you would want to travel as close to your destination on your first train? If the terminus (or furthest interchange) of that first train will provide 'more' train departures to your end destination, you are much closer to home to deal with any delays or cancellations caused elsewhere.

Not always.

For example, some posters on here have significant "issues" with 22x series units. If they were travelling from Oxford to Edinburgh, it's likely that they would change to an East Coast service at Doncaster or York rather than wait until Newcastle.

Similarly, if they were travelling from Oxford to Larbert and had swapped to The Highand Chieftain at York. They have a choice of changing services at Waverley or at Falkirk Grahmston.

This is a more difficult one. Do you stay on the Chieftain and change at Falkirk, or follow the National Rail guidance of changing at Waverley?

For me, it would depend on the weather. Falkirk is generally a miserable and desperate place to change trains, but on a glorious July or August day it would be quite tolerable to stand for 6 minutes on the platform waiting for a connection - at other times of year I would change at Waverley.

 

[najaB]

So, for a booking engine to get it 'right' you would need to be able to specify: preferred type of traction (e.g. Avoid: Voyager/Merdian) , preferred transfer type (e.g. cross platform), quality of waiting room, location of nearest pub, odds of getting a seat and the expected weather.

Anything left out?

 

[Llanigraham]

Surely you would want to travel as close to your destination on your first train? If the terminus (or furthest interchange) of that first train will provide 'more' train departures to your end destination, you are much closer to home to deal with any delays or cancellations caused elsewhere.

No.
I regularly travel Euston to Caersws and could change at Birminghsm Int, B'ham New St or Wolverhampton, however if I change at B'ham Int I can guarantee to get a seat, but I can't at the other stops!